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#1
05-09-2012, 08:31 AM
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French unit sizes as an indication of casualites they have taken in the war
Posting this here (just put it up in the RDF canon omissions thread as well but thought it merited its own thread) to start a discussion on an area that hasnt really been touched too much by the canon - which is how badly have the French been hit by the war in terms of casualties. The RDF is one of the few places where we have canon numbers that can give us a real indication.
repost from RDF Omissions Module Leg, I got my data from the French Defense Dept site - which is in French by the way and you need to google translate it - the English version of the site has no info on it that is useable. Here for instance is the address for the 6th Light Armored Brigade http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/pre...legere-blindee To be clear Leg and James - what is on that site is the actual serving manpower and equipment, not a TOE or projected strength, but the actual number of men and women who are physically part of those units, including where they have been posted in the past. The site is very specific about how many men and in most cases tanks or armored fighting vehicles are physically in reality in the units themselves (i.e. living breathing servicemen and women, not what could be there but what is there), not a projection or TOE statement that is not the real strength. If you look at the information it clearly is a trend - I looked at several different formations and you can clearly see a trend that shows the French have taken a lot of losses To summarize so far 1st Foreign Legion Cavalry Regiment in reality is 930 men and 48 AMX-10 RC, in the game its 600 men and 24 AFV's. (which would be the AMX-10 RC vehicles) 13th Foreign Legion Demi-brigade (posted in Djibouti since 1962) in reality is 800 men, in the game its 500 men and they would only have been in that country - they havent been posted anywhere else to take casualties 2nd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment - in reality its at 1230 men organized into ten companies, making it the largest regiment in the French Army (that is a direct quote from the site referenced above). In the game it has 600 men. That is over 50 percent casualty rate! 2nd Foreign Legion Parachute Regiment- which has seen no fighting since it arrived in the Middle East - in reality it has 1140 men organized into 9 compainies, in the game it has 600 men. Again almost a 50% casualty rate. 3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment - in reality it has 675 men organized into 5 companies, in the game it doesnt appear but its very obvious that it should be the deployed unit and not the 1st Regiment for reasons I state below 1st Marine Regiment - 933 men and 18 AMX 10 RC in reality - in the game they have 500 men and no vehicles, meaning they have lost all their armor and almost half their men. 2nd Marine Regiment - 933 men (broken down as 58 officers, 269 NCO, 606 other ranks) in reality, in the game they are at 500 men - again a huge loss rate 3rd Marine Parachute Regiment - in reality 1120 men in 8 companies, in the game they are down to 750 men http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/pre...erie-de-marine 1st Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment - this formation is an administrative regiment that is completley administrative and is not a field formation and hasnt been for decades - they are not deployable. If it was ever sent it would never have gone into the field but be an HQ unit only. This is a clear pattern of the French taking a lot of casualties with some units being reduced by 50 percent or more, in several cases units that would only have been in Africa. Thus the French, in many ways, have taken almost as bad a beating as the Americans have in the RDF in fighting the Somalis, Ethiopians, Eritreans, etc.. at Djibouti. These arent fresh units showing up - these are units that have seen a heck of a lot of combat, with deep holes in their TOE's and a lot of equipment and vehicles gone. They havent taken those casualties in the Middle East itself - the canon is very clear that they are not doing any fighting there. I am continuing to do research but so far the trend is definitely a large reduction in manpower and vehicles for every unit I have seen so far in the French FAR, including among units that have done nothing but be garrison troops since they showed up. There is fighting mentioned in Senegal and Mauritania against pro-Soviet guerrillas in the bio of the French commander of the FAR - but that wouldnt explain the losses in the units that were in Djibouti the whole time. I will look at other modules but information on the French tends to be pretty spotty. For instance a bunch of units are mentioned in Going Home - but no idea of how many men they have at all. 
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#2
05-09-2012, 11:20 AM
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Great research, really interesting read. Looks like we may need to all consider the canon position on this.
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#3
05-09-2012, 11:21 AM
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It is possible that GDW made some errors in manpower figures when listing the French orbat in RDF.
From RDF: The French Force Actione Rapide (FAR or Rapid Action Force) is the visible symbol of French military and diplomatic presence in the Persian Gulf region. The FAR was created in the 1980's to provide France with power projection capabilities similar to those of CENTCOM. Like CENTCOM, it is a unified command. The first major deployment of the FAR came in the fall of 1995. The Foreign Legion Operational Group was activated and sent to Djibouti to assist in internal security duties. A task force of French Marine Infantry was stationed at Dakar at the request of the Senegalese government. In 1998, when the Franco-Belgian Union was formed, Senegal and Djibouti became member nations. The biggest break came when the governments of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia gave permission for France to station troops in their countries (to the chagrin of some Americans in the region). The Paris government responded quickly and by fall of 1998, the 9th Marine Infantry Division and the 2nd Brigade of the 11th Airborne Division were in the region along with supporting elements. There they have remained, providing a visible symbol of France's commitment to the stability of the region (and to assure that France gets its share when the Americans leave). Structure: The FAR, like CENTCOM, is composed of forces from all the military services of the nation. The ground force component consists of the 9th Marine Infantry Division, the 11th Airborne Division, the 1st Light Armored Division, and the Foreign Legion Operational Group. The naval component is built around the Guided Missile Cruiser Jean Bart, and her escorts. Special operations are handled through the Unconventional Warfare Operations Group, which controls the Marine Commando Group (naval commandos) and the 1st Marine Parachute Regiment. Not all of these units are fully deployed in the Persian Gulf RDF French Order of Battle Rapid Action Force (FAR) HQ: Djibouti, Djibouti Foreign Legion Operational Group (GOLE) HQ: Djibouti 13th Foreign Legion Demi-brigade (500 men) Djibouti 1st Foreign Legion Infantry Rgt (600 men) Basra, Iraq 2nd Foreign Legion Infantry Rgt (600 men) Djibouti 1st Foreign Legion Cavalry Rgt (600 men, 24 AFVs): Djibouti 2nd Foreign Legion Parachute Rgt (600 men) Al Kuwayt,Kuwayt 11th Airborne Division HQ: Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia 2nd Brigade HQ: Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia 425 Airborne Support Command (300 men): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia 1st Senegalese Parachute Rgt (600 men): Al Qatif, SA 6th Marine Parachute Rgt (750 men): Al Qatif, SA 3rd Marine Parachute Rgt (750 men): Al Qatif, SA 1st Airborne Chasseur Rgt (750 men): Al Qatif, SA 1st Marine Parachute Rgt (700 men): Basra, Iraq 1st/35th Abn Arty Rgt (200 men): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia 3rd Troop, 1 st Airborne Hussar Rgt (120 men, 24 AFVs): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia 2nd Company, 17th Airborne Engineer Rgt 2nd Company, 5th Combat Helicopter Rgt (12 Dauphin, 4 Ecureils, 4 Super Pumas) 9th Marine Division HQ: Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt Marine Group HQ: Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt 1st Marine Infantry Rgt (500 men): Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt 2nd Marine Infantry Rgt (500 men): Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt 1st/11th Marine Arty Rgt (180 men): Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt 1st Company, 1st Marine Tank Rgt (120 men, 13 AFVs): Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt Middle East Aviation Group HQ: Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt 15th Ftr Squadron (200 men, 16 Mirage 2000s) 25th Ftr Squadron (200 men, 16 Mirage 2000s) 292nd Attack Squadron (200 men, 16 Mirage 4000s) 161st Transport Squadron (300 men, 8 Transall C-160) 193rd Air Refuelling Squadron (300 men, 4 KC-110s) The real life FAR was composed of the following units. 4th Division Aeromobile: Nancy 6th Division Legere Blindee: Nimes 9th Division Marine: Nantes 11th Division Parachutiste: Toulouse 27th Division Alpine: Grenoble Brigade logistique de la FAR: Maisons Lafittes 19th Brigade d’artillerie: Maisons Lafittes 4th Division Aeromobile - Nancy, France: 5100 personnel 1st Regiment d'Infanterie (RI): 64 Milan, 8 81mm mortars, 12 120mm mortars 1st Regt d'Helicopteres de Combat (RHC): 8 Alouette III, 24 Gazelle/HOT, 8 Gazelle/20mm, 24 Super Puma 3rd Regt d'Helicopteres de Combat (RHC): 8 Alouette III, 24 Gazelle/HOT, 8 Gazelle/20mm, 24 Super Puma 5th Regt d'Helicopteres de Combat (RHC): 8 Alouette III, 24 Gazelle/HOT, 8 Gazelle/20mm, 24 Super Puma 4th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Manoeuvre (RCS) – Nancy: 8 Alouette III, 8 Super Puma 9th Regiment de Soutien Aéromobile – Phalsbourg: 6th Division Legere Blindee (DLB) - Nimes, France: 7400 personnel - Light Armoured Division 1st Regiment de Spahis (RS) – Valence: 36 AMX10RC, 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT 1st Regiment Etrangere de Cavalerie (REC) – Orange: 36 AMX10RC, 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT 2nd Regt Etrangere d'Infanterie (REI) – Nimes: VAB Regiment 21st Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) – Fréjus: VAB Regiment 68th Regiment d'Artillerie (RA) – La Valbonee: 24 BF50 155mm towed 43rd Regiment d’Artillerie de Marine – La Valbonne: Moblization only 6th Regiment Etrangere du Genie (REG)(Foreign Legion Combat Engineers): 6th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) – Nimes: 9th Division Marine - St Malo, France: 8000 personnel Regiment d'Infanterie-Chars de Marine (RICM) – Vannes: 36 ERC-90S (to AMX-10RC, 1990), 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT 1st Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) – Angoulême: 36 ERC-90S (to AMX-10RC, 1990), 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT 2nd Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) – Le Mans: Marine Infantry Regiment 3rd Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) – Vannes: Marine Infantry Regiment 11th Regiment d'Artillerie de Marine (RAMa) – La Lande d’Ouee: 24 BF50 155mm towed 2nd Regiment d’Artillerie de Marine (RAMa) – Montlhery: Mobilization only 6th Regiment du Genie (RG)(Combat Engineers) – Angers: 2 companies 9th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) – Nantes: 11th Division Parachutiste - Toulouse, France: 13500 personnel 1st Regiment de Hussards Parachutists (RHP) – Tarbes: 36 ERC 90S, 12 Milan 1st Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) – Bayonne: Parachute Infantry Regiment 3rd Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) – Carcasonne: Parachute Infantry Regiment 6th Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) – Mont de Marsan: Parachute Infantry Regiment 8th Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) – Castres: Parachute Infantry Regiment 1st Regt de Chasseurs Parachutiste (RCP) – Saint-Médard-en-Jalles Camp de Souge: Parachute Infantry Regiment 9th Regt de Chasseurs Parachutiste (RCP) – Pamiers: Parachute Infantry Regiment 2nd Regiment Etrangere Parachutiste (REP) – Calvi: Parachute Infantry Regiment 35th Regiment d'Artillerie Parachutiste (RAP) – Tarbes: 24 AU50 105mm towed 24th Regiment d’Artillerie – Saint Avold: Mobilization only 17th Regiment du Genie Parachutiste (RGP)(Airborne Combat Engineers) – Montauban: 7th Regiment Parachutiste de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RPCS) – Castres: 14th Regiment Parachutiste de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RPCS) – Toulouse: 27th Division Alpine - Grenoble, France: 8500 personnel 4th Regiment de Chasseurs metropolitains (RCh): 36 AML-90, 3 VAB, 12 Jeeps w/Milan 6th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Varces: Alpine Infantry Battalion 7th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Bourg Saint Maurice: Alpine Infantry Battalion 11th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Barcelonnette: Alpine Infantry Battalion 13th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Chambéry: Alpine Infantry Battalion 27th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Annecy: Alpine Infantry Battalion 159th Regiment d'Infanterie Alpine (RIA) – Briancon: Alpine Infantry Battalion 93rd Regiment d'Artillerie Alpine – Varces: 24 AU50 105mm towed 75th Regiment d’Artillerie Alpine – Varces: Mobilization only 7th Battalion du Genie Alpine (BGDA) – Avignon: 27th Groupe-ment d'Helicopteres (GHL): 19 Alouette III, 11 Super Puma, 30 Gazelle/HOT 27th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) – Grenoble: FAR Organic Units 17th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) – Maisons-Lafitte: 28th Regiment de Transmissions – Orleans: 602nd Regiment de Circulation Routiere – Dijon: 511th Regiemnt du Train: Foreign Legion Group - Aubagne, France: 1st Regt Etrangere d'Infanterie (REI): VAB Regiment Other 1t Regiment Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) - used for SAS type missions: Fusiliers-Marins: A 590 man 6 company Marine Commando unit. East Africa – All units in Djibouti 13th Demi Brigade Legion Etrangere: 3 Infantry Cos, 1 AMX-10RC co, 1 mixed 105mm/155mm artillery battery 5th Regiment Inter-Armees Outre Mere: 3 Infanty Cos, 1 AMX-13 co, 1 mixed 105mm/155mm artillery battery ALAT Detachment: 5 medium transport helicopters (SA-330) 10th Battalion de Commande-ment et de Soutien (BCS) Squadron, Armee de l’Aire: 10 F-1C, 1 C-160, 2 SA-316, 1 SA-319
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#4
05-10-2012, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
__________________
Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom
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#5
05-10-2012, 12:03 PM
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Perhaps some of the troops missing from the FAR were transferred from their parent units to reinforce units assigned to the Dead Zone?
Just out of interest, checking the V2 NATO Vehicle Guide, the average size of a French Division in Europe appears to be around 4,000 men (approx).
__________________
Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom Last edited by Rainbow Six; 05-10-2012 at 12:10 PM.
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#6
05-10-2012, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
4th Airmobile Division Location: Nancy, France Subordination: I Corps Strength: 3,800 men 6th Light Armoured Division Location: Antwerp, Belgium Subordination: III Corps Strength: 4,400 men Tanks: 36 AMX10RC 27th Alpine Division Location: Grenoble, France Subordination: I Corps Strength: 4,400 men Looks like some pretty substantial shortfalls in manpower compared to the figures in RN7's post - e.g. 27th Alpine is at almost half strength.
__________________
Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom
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#7
05-10-2012, 12:54 PM
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Keep in mind that French divisions are smaller and are more like large brigades - but you are right about them being undermanned
Clearly the French have taken a lot of casualties I dont see the FAR transferring men back to France - remember even the French dont have a lot of oil - if you read Going Home helos and armor patrols only happened if someone had a damn good reason - i.e. they had oil and gas but not a lot of it by the way - the fact that the 6th Light is mentioned shows that the GDW guys didnt know about the real disposition of the French Army - because two of its regiments are sitting in the Middle East per the RDF module
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#8
05-10-2012, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
It seems to me that the most likely areas for the French to have suffered significant casualties are either the invasion of West Germany / the Netherlands (and subsequent actions) where they were in combat against the Dutch and (presumably) German Armies (iirc published material is a little light on details of what German units might have been involved) or losses incurred as a result of the nuclear attacks on France (of which we know there were some, just not the details). Also worth considering that the French Army of T2K would have had large numbers of conscripts, which raises the question of what desertion rates would have been like?
__________________
Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom
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#9
05-10-2012, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
NATO Vehicle Guide V2 seems to have some strage entries and ommisions. It lists the 4th French Armored Division as part of the French I Corps orbat, yet the 4th Armored Division doesn't seem to exist in real life. NATO Vehicle Guide V2 also lists two Belgian divisions as part of the III French Corps whose French divisons are the 2nd and 10th Armored Divisons and the 8th Infantry Division. Yet according to Going Home there are only three French divisions in the French III Corps; 1st, 2nd and 17th Armored Divisions who have three Belgian armoured regiments, two Belgian armoured cavalry regiments, two Belgian mechanised infantry regiments, one Belgian artillery regiment, one Belgian paratroop regiments and a Senegalese infantry regiment. The 1st Armored Division is attached to the French I Corps in NATO Vehicle Guide V2, and the 17th armored division doesn't seem to exist. NATO Vehicle Guide V2 seems to have assigned the 4th Airmobile Division and the 27th Alpine Division to the I French Corp, and the 6th Light Armored Division to the III French Corps when the 4th Airmobile and 6th Light Armored Divisions probably should have been sent to the Middle East with the rest of the FAR. GDW's thinking may have been that aviation assets woud be usefull to the French in Europe, but I think they forgot about the aviation assets assigned to the three French Corps in Europe which included them. NATO Vehicle Guide V2 also seems to have missed out on all the French regional forces which organisationaly at least could muster 18 divisions and 7 brigades. Maybe the 4th and 17th Armored Divisions are taken from this.
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#10
05-10-2012, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
__________________
Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom
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#11
05-10-2012, 03:03 PM
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Actually the FAR deployed to Africa starting in 1995 according to the RDF
Sept 1995 Not to be outdone, the French activated the Foreign Legion Operational Group (GOLE) and deployed them to Djibouti. The US government committed the rest of the 7th Special Forces Group and a ranger battalion for anti-terrorist duties. That means all the French Legion units in the RDF are there in 1995 long before WWIII starts in Europe or any action against Germany August 24, 1998 Their cargo was the 9th Marine Division. Two days later, forward elements of the French 11th Airborne Division began landing in Djibouti. The French government made it clear that these forces were there to assist the host governments in maintaining order. The first major deployment of the FAR came in the fall of 1995. The Foreign Legion Operational Group was activated and sent to Djibouti to assist in internal security duties. A task force of French Marine Infantry was stationed at Dakar at the request of the Senegalese government. As to combat When the FAR was reorganized in 1990, Major General Cervelan was named as its' chief of staff. In 1998, when the FAR deployed in part to West Africa, General Cervelan commanded an operational group in action against pro-Soviet guerillas in Senegal and Mauritania. So what do you have - the Foreign Legion Units and at least a detachment of Marines were gone from France by 1995 The rest of the force showed up in August of 1998 French takeover of the Dead Zone was in January of 1998 So what do we know 1) Part of the FAR was in Senegal and Mauritania prior to August of 1998 fighting guerrilla forces 2) The Foreign Legion showed up in Djibouti in 1995 Thus the casualties suffered by the following groups all had to occur from 1995 until Dec 2000 in Djibouti as they didnt do any fighting in the Middle East Foreign Legion Operational Group (GOLE) HQ: Djibouti 13th Foreign Legion Demi-brigade (500 men) Djibouti 1st Foreign Legion Infantry Rgt (600 men) Basra, Iraq 2nd Foreign Legion Infantry Rgt (600 men) Djibouti 1st Foreign Legion Cavalry Rgt (600 men, 24 AFVs): Djibouti 2nd Foreign Legion Parachute Rgt (600 men) Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt the obvious inference is that there has been a heck of a lot of fighting that is not covered in the canon between the Legion and Ethiopia, Somalia and Eritrea all of which border on Djibouti enough to have destroyed at least 12-24 AFV's and somewhere around 1600-2000 men or so Keep in mind - Africa is one heck of a dangerous place - and anti-guerrilla fighing even if you control the sea and air is a great way to take lots of casualties i.e. Vietnam for the US and Afghanistan for the Soviets
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#12
05-09-2012, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
2nd edition Nato Vehicle Guide has 3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment in Kourou, Guiana guarding the Guiana Space Center (which is part of its RL duties). From what I understand, they also run a tough jungle warfare school. If you want to go by canon, then thats where 3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment is located. and where is our resident Frenchman, Mohender, these days? Haven't seen him posting in awhile. here's his oob http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=207 Last edited by boogiedowndonovan; 05-09-2012 at 01:31 PM. Reason: shout out to mohender
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#13
05-09-2012, 02:24 PM
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RN I agree totally with the FAR in the game not matching the FAR in real life - it doesnt make any sense because as far as I remember the FAR and its components in real life were set before GDW issued that module.
And things like using the 1st Foreign Legion Regiment and missing units that had been deployed in Djibouti, in some cases for decades before the module was issued. If you read the RDF is makes it sound like the FAR showed up in 1995 and before that the French werent in the area when in reality - and by that I mean 1984 reality when they were putting the game together - they had been there for two decades! this is yet another reason why I have been arguing that the canon needs to be corrected - at the least to get the right units there that really made up the FAR. Right now, the way the canon reads, the French have taken a heck of a beating in those units for a country that is not at war and that has only been fighting guerrillas (these units were not part of the invasion of the Netherlands, Luxembourg and Germany in any way after all) at the least it paints a picture of a lot of fighting in Djibouti that occurred to reduce those units that much
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#14
05-09-2012, 02:34 PM
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The answer to the 1st may be an expansion of the Foreign Legion, I touched on this in my Foreign Troops article and may well now incorporate this.
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#15
05-09-2012, 02:39 PM
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I agree with you there James - i.e. they make the 1st back into a combat unit and move the administrative elements to possibly the 4th regiment which was a training regiment - so now its responsible for both administration and training.
They could use some of the NCO's and officers from the original 1st as the officers and men for the "new" 1st Regiment. One reason could be the big casualties that the other regiments took - i.e. they needed more punch in the field so they added a new regiment to give the Legion more combat punch. By the way - another idea could be they convert one of the Engineering Regiments to a combat one and then rename it from Engineering to Infantry.
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#16
05-10-2012, 04:56 AM
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Could disease have contributed to the losses? France could be unable to deliver adequate medical supplies to its forces in Africa.
Historically, until the discovery of anti-biotics, disease was the biggest killer of troops.
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