French unit sizes as an indication of casualites they have taken in the war

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Per NATO Vehicle Guide (V2 - French units aren't listed in V1) units not deployed to the Gulf were assigned as follows

4th Airmobile Division
Location: Nancy, France
Subordination: I Corps
Strength: 3,800 men

6th Light Armoured Division
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Subordination: III Corps
Strength: 4,400 men
Tanks: 36 AMX10RC

27th Alpine Division
Location: Grenoble, France
Subordination: I Corps
Strength: 4,400 men

Looks like some pretty substantial shortfalls in manpower compared to the figures in RN7's post - e.g. 27th Alpine is at almost half strength.

NATO Vehicle Guide V2 seems to have some strage entries and ommisions. It lists the 4th French Armored Division as part of the French I Corps orbat, yet the 4th Armored Division doesn't seem to exist in real life.

NATO Vehicle Guide V2 also lists two Belgian divisions as part of the III French Corps whose French divisons are the 2nd and 10th Armored Divisons and the 8th Infantry Division. Yet according to Going Home there are only three French divisions in the French III Corps; 1st, 2nd and 17th Armored Divisions who have three Belgian armoured regiments, two Belgian armoured cavalry regiments, two Belgian mechanised infantry regiments, one Belgian artillery regiment, one Belgian paratroop regiments and a Senegalese infantry regiment. The 1st Armored Division is attached to the French I Corps in NATO Vehicle Guide V2, and the 17th armored division doesn't seem to exist.

NATO Vehicle Guide V2 seems to have assigned the 4th Airmobile Division and the 27th Alpine Division to the I French Corp, and the 6th Light Armored Division to the III French Corps when the 4th Airmobile and 6th Light Armored Divisions probably should have been sent to the Middle East with the rest of the FAR. GDW's thinking may have been that aviation assets woud be usefull to the French in Europe, but I think they forgot about the aviation assets assigned to the three French Corps in Europe which included them.

NATO Vehicle Guide V2 also seems to have missed out on all the French regional forces which organisationaly at least could muster 18 divisions and 7 brigades. Maybe the 4th and 17th Armored Divisions are taken from this.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

NATO Vehicle Guide V2 also seems to have missed out on all the French regional forces which organisationaly at least could muster 18 divisions and 7 brigades. Maybe the 4th and 17th Armored Divisions are taken from this.

No change there...German, British, and Canadian reserve forces were all totally omitted from the V1 and V2 vehicle guides. From memory I think that meant the Germans were short six Divisions - the UK was definitely short one. I think the only reserves that were covered in any sort of detail - on the western side at least - were the US National Guard / Army Reserve.

[Olefin]

Actually the FAR deployed to Africa starting in 1995 according to the RDF

Sept 1995

Not to be outdone, the French activated the Foreign Legion
Operational Group (GOLE) and deployed them to Djibouti. The
US government committed the rest of the 7th Special Forces
Group and a ranger battalion for anti-terrorist duties.

That means all the French Legion units in the RDF are there in 1995 long before WWIII starts in Europe or any action against Germany

August 24, 1998

Their cargo was the 9th Marine Division. Two days later, forward elements of the French 11th Airborne Division began landing in Djibouti. The French government made it clear that these forces were there to assist the
host governments in maintaining order.


The first major deployment of the FAR came in the fall of
1995. The Foreign Legion Operational Group was activated and
sent to Djibouti to assist in internal security duties. A task force
of French Marine Infantry was stationed at Dakar at the request
of the Senegalese government.

As to combat

When the FAR was reorganized in 1990, Major General
Cervelan was named as its' chief of staff. In 1998, when the
FAR deployed in part to West Africa, General Cervelan commanded
an operational group in action against pro-Soviet
guerillas in Senegal and Mauritania.


So what do you have - the Foreign Legion Units and at least a detachment of Marines were gone from France by 1995

The rest of the force showed up in August of 1998

French takeover of the Dead Zone was in January of 1998

So what do we know

1) Part of the FAR was in Senegal and Mauritania prior to August of 1998 fighting guerrilla forces

2) The Foreign Legion showed up in Djibouti in 1995

Thus the casualties suffered by the following groups all had to occur from 1995 until Dec 2000 in Djibouti as they didnt do any fighting in the Middle East

Foreign Legion Operational Group (GOLE) HQ: Djibouti
13th Foreign Legion Demi-brigade (500 men) Djibouti
1st Foreign Legion Infantry Rgt (600 men) Basra, Iraq
2nd Foreign Legion Infantry Rgt (600 men) Djibouti
1st Foreign Legion Cavalry Rgt (600 men, 24 AFVs):
Djibouti
2nd Foreign Legion Parachute Rgt (600 men) Al Kuwayt,
Kuwayt

the obvious inference is that there has been a heck of a lot of fighting that is not covered in the canon between the Legion and Ethiopia, Somalia and Eritrea all of which border on Djibouti

enough to have destroyed at least 12-24 AFV's and somewhere around 1600-2000 men or so

Keep in mind - Africa is one heck of a dangerous place - and anti-guerrilla fighing even if you control the sea and air is a great way to take lots of casualties

i.e. Vietnam for the US and Afghanistan for the Soviets

[pmulcahy11b]

I just seems that the more we go over GDW's material, the more flubs we find...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

(Bolding mine) Going off on a slight tangent here, that suggests to me that the French Government is still located in Paris in 1998, which is after the first wave of nuclear exchanges.

That makes sense since France was technically and practically a neutral. Attacking the capital is IMO an outright and unmistakable declaration of WAR!! (as if nuking anything else wasn't...?)

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Perhaps some of the troops missing from the FAR were transferred from their parent units to reinforce units assigned to the Dead Zone?

That's pretty much what I was saying a few days back in another thread. The "missing" troops may either have never left France, or were withdrawn to the battered homeland to provide replacements/assistance on the borders and internal civil duties.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

It seems to me that the most likely areas for the French to have suffered significant casualties are either the invasion of West Germany / the Netherlands (and subsequent actions) where they were in combat against the Dutch and (presumably) German Armies (iirc published material is a little light on details of what German units might have been involved) or losses incurred as a result of the nuclear attacks on France (of which we know there were some, just not the details).

France may have lost a disproportionate number of troops from nukes due to them being stationed to defend vital facilities and infrastructure from saboteurs. It is possible the French believed that as they were neutral, they would not be targeted by nukes, and so were caught napping without their units being disbursed as were the actual belligerents.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Actually the FAR deployed to Africa starting in 1995 according to the RDF

In at least 2.x, France (and others) had at least some indications of the coming conflict.

1994
As Europe shows signs of increasing instability, Germany begins quietly increasing its force structure. In January of 1994, the nine understrength divisions which had been maintained as a token army are brought up to full strength and each is given a territorial (reserve) brigade.

It's quite possible the French would have also "quietly" responded, strengthening their borders, particularly that with Germany, a traditional enemy and the most likely direction the Pact would attack from if/when things spiralled completely out of control. This could also explain why the numbers in Africa don't quite add up to your expectations.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Sept 1995

Not to be outdone, the French activated the Foreign Legion Operational Group (GOLE) and deployed them to Djibouti. The US government committed the rest of the 7th Special Forces Group and a ranger battalion for anti-terrorist duties.

That means all the French Legion units in the RDF are there in 1995 long before WWIII starts in Europe or any action against Germany.

True, this was before war actually broke out, but we already know tensions had increased dramatically. No competent government would ever even consider reducing security at home in those circumstances unless they felt what was left was sufficient.

Additionally, what I'm seeing is not the entire Foreign Legion being deployed, but rather one, unspecified component of it - GOLE.

As for the missing units in the vehicle books, the game was written by Americans and aimed at mainly American players. Great focus has been given to US units, dispositions and conditions at home with only enough attention to other nationalities to provide a little "flavour".

[Olefin]

Sorry Leg - but its obviouis to anyone who looks at the order of battle and the number of men that they have taken casualties and thats why their units are smaller.

Those units were deployed in 1995 prior to the war breaking out in Europe. And frankly whats in another version doesnt play here.

The RDF was written for V1 and thats what we have to use. It was never rewritten or brought up to date for that different timeline.

And if you read the actual history of French deployments in Africa they have taken casualties in every one of those deployments.

Plus the FAR was meant to be sent to hot spots, kick butt and take names. You usually dont do that without putting a lot of your own guys into body bags. This isnt a REMF unit - they are the tip of the spear.

And the tip of the spear usually gets pretty bloody doing its job.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Sorry Leg - but its obviouis to anyone who looks at the order of battle and the number of men that they have taken casualties and thats why their units are smaller.

Anyone else want to speak up here?

Originally Posted by Olefin

The RDF was written for V1 and thats what we have to use.

If you look really close and spend five minutes reading the V1 and V2 vehicle guides, you can see the text is 99.99999999% cut and pasted. Unit histories are word for word the same. Therefore, the RDF Sourcebook didn't need to be updated - it's still the same damn thing.
Look a little more and you'll see that after about December 1996, the history in the BYB is also cut and pasted form V1 - http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=3109

Originally Posted by Olefin

And frankly whats in another version doesnt play here.

So you're the spokesperson for absolutely everyone then? How'd that happen? I didn't see a vote on it...