RPG Forums

Go Back   RPG Forums > Role Playing Game Section > Twilight 2000 Forum
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-23-2023, 03:09 PM
Raellus's Avatar
Raellus Raellus is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Southern AZ
Posts: 4,289
Question Polish 6th Pomeranian Airborne Division

I can't find mention in canon of Poland's airborne formation. It's not mentioned in Going Home (1e) or the East Europe Sourcebook (2e). I checked the independent Polish militias (e.g. 1st Polish Free Legion, Gydnia Miiicya) to see if any of them started off as the 6th PAD, or were built around a 6th PAD cadre, but no dice (most of the independent Polish formations are ex-Border Guard units).

I doubt that the T2k writers didn't know about it. It has a famous heritage (see A Bridge Too Far), at least compared to other Warsaw Pact airborne formations, and was considered an elite unit by the Soviets. It's mentioned in various publications from the period in which the writing of the game took place. The EESB includes the Czechoslovakian Parachute Brigade. It seems like a strange and fairly glaring omission from the Polish OOB.

Am I missing something? Is it mentioned in Challenge of another canonical source?

-
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-23-2023, 03:36 PM
Nyrond24's Avatar
Nyrond24 Nyrond24 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Blackpool England, right on the beach.
Posts: 18
Default 6th pomeranian

In black madonna its destroyed at the battle for Czestochowa, its last comander is guarding the black madonna.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-23-2023, 04:01 PM
Raellus's Avatar
Raellus Raellus is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Southern AZ
Posts: 4,289
Default Still Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyrond24 View Post
In black madonna its destroyed at the battle for Czestochowa, its last comander is guarding the black madonna.
Ah, yes. Thanks! This is what Black Madonna (p. 10 of the PDF) has to say about the 6th Pomeranian Air Assault Division:

"The rest [of the Battle of was Czestochowa (in 1997)] was anticlimax. Three hundred members of 4th and 16th Parachute Regiments broke out to the east to link up with 12th TD. The 230 survivors of 1st Parachute Regiment surrendered. The 6th Pomeranian Air Assault Division had ceased to exist."

So, no more 6th Pomeranian Air Assault/Parachute Division. However, 300 Polish paratroopers linked up with the 12th TD, so where would they be c.2000? Neither Going Home nor the EESB mentions the whereabouts or status of the Polish 12th TD, so we still don't know where the 6th PAAD survivors are c.2000! Anyone know of any canonical info about the Polish 12th TD?

-
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module

Last edited by Raellus; 07-23-2023 at 04:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-23-2023, 04:02 PM
Rainbow Six's Avatar
Rainbow Six Rainbow Six is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,623
Default

Yeah, as Nyrond24 said, check Black Madonna. It's got a lot of detail on the 6th AAD. IIRC there's even the inspirational quote the commander gave to his troops on the eve of battle.
__________________
Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-23-2023, 07:06 PM
Homer Homer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 251
Default 6th PVA Air Asslt BDE

Looking at orbat 89 and some other sources it looks like the 6th was downgraded to a brigade in 1989, with the regiments being downgraded to battalions. By my OB references that makes them pretty small, but 300 ish survivors is still going to gut that force.

Maybe the survivors were reconstituted following the Pact counteroffensive or were folded into a politically reliable national reserve along with the remnants of the Army and Navy Commandos? After all, Poland had a very strong tradition of both airborne and special operations troops.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-23-2023, 09:47 PM
Bestbrian Bestbrian is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 35
Default

"-- June 7 - Fighting around Czestochowa destroys the Jasna Gora, home to the Black Madonna. 300 members of the 4th and 16th Parachute Regiments break out to the east. The 1st Parachute Regiment surrenders, and the 6th Pomerian [sic] Air Assault Division ceases to exist. The survivors of the Polish 12th Tank Division and Polish 2nd Motorized Rifle Division escape up the Vistula." According to this timeline: https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1433519198937.pdf. Black Madonna has them linking up with the 12th.

On July 9, tactical nukes start flying and NATO withdraws to Germany.

The 2nd MRD was mauled and converted to horse cavalry. In 2000, it is in Gdynia with 200 cavalry. (East European SB).

12th Cavalry was formed from the survivors of the 11th Tank Division (Koscierzyna/Gniew/Tczew, 1500 cavalry). (EESB)

If you'd like, you can assume that the 12th Cavalry also included remnants from the 12th Tank Division as well as the 11th, which would account for the numbering of the cavalry division. This would place the survivors of the 6th as elements of the 12th Cavalry and/or the 2nd. With the nukes flying not long after the survivors broke out of Czestochowa, I wouldn't have them being maintained by higher HQ as a special cadre. In the crash of civilization, I'd have them absorbed into the 12th or 2nd, perhaps as an elite squadron, but there wouldn't be too many left by 2000.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-24-2023, 12:06 AM
Raellus's Avatar
Raellus Raellus is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Southern AZ
Posts: 4,289
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer View Post
Looking at orbat 89 and some other sources it looks like the 6th was downgraded to a brigade in 1989, with the regiments being downgraded to battalions.
True. I can see the 6th being built back up to division strength again in light of the Soviet Union's war with China, especially when Moscow starts demanding Warsaw Pact members contribute fighting forces to the war in the East. They could do that fairly quickly, I assume, by recalling reserve/retired/discharged ex-paratroopers back to active duty. It would have only been 6-7 years since the unit was downsized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer View Post
Maybe the survivors were reconstituted following the Pact counteroffensive or were folded into a politically reliable national reserve along with the remnants of the Army and Navy Commandos? After all, Poland had a very strong tradition of both airborne and special operations troops.
That's definitely a possibility. It makes sense to consolidate "elite" troops, instead of dispersing them among regular motor rifles units.

The other elite formations in the Polish armed forces during the Cold War were the 7th Naval Assault Division (aka Marines), which is accounted for in T2k canon, and the Podhale Mountain Brigade, which, AFAIK, is not. It's possible that the survivors of 6th Pomeranian Parachute/Air Assault Division (or Brigade) were absorbed into one of those other "elite" units. However, if that were the case with the 7th Marine Division, AFAIK, it's not mentioned in any of the canonical descriptions of that formation.

Come to think of it, where is the Mountain Brigade? Is it mentioned at all in canon? IRL, it was technically part of the Border Guard but I don't recall seeing it mentioned in any of the several entries for Polish Border Guard units in canon. I'll have to take a closer look at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestbrian View Post
12th Cavalry was formed from the survivors of the 11th Tank Division (Koscierzyna/Gniew/Tczew, 1500 cavalry). (EESB)

If you'd like, you can assume that the 12th Cavalry also included remnants from the 12th Tank Division as well as the 11th, which would account for the numbering of the cavalry division. This would place the survivors of the 6th as elements of the 12th Cavalry and/or the 2nd. With the nukes flying not long after the survivors broke out of Czestochowa, I wouldn't have them being maintained by higher HQ as a special cadre. In the crash of civilization, I'd have them absorbed into the 12th or 2nd, perhaps as an elite squadron, but there wouldn't be too many left by 2000.
That's also a possibility. It appears that the writers lost track of the 12th TD at some point with they were working up their late war OOBs. It happens- they had a lot to keep track of, and fewer sources to work with. Before I make up destination for those 300 or so surviving Polish paratroopers, though, I'd like to completely exhaust canon. I looked at a couple of indexes of Challenge magazine hoping to spot an article about Polish elite forces (paras, marines, mountain troops) and nothing jumped out at me- in the indexes I was looking at, T2k stuff is listed by title, not subject, so if the title isn't particularly specific, direct, or descriptive, I could be missing it.

-
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-24-2023, 12:23 AM
Raellus's Avatar
Raellus Raellus is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Southern AZ
Posts: 4,289
Default Airborne Armor

It's interesting to note that the 6th Pomeranian Parachute Division was equipped with OT-64 APCs and ASU-85 self-propelled assault guns (withdrawn from service in the late 1970s but presumably kept in reserve).

-
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-24-2023, 10:09 AM
Homer Homer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 251
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raellus View Post
True. I can see the 6th being built back up to division strength again in light of the Soviet Union's war with China, especially when Moscow starts demanding Warsaw Pact members contribute fighting forces to the war in the East. They could do that fairly quickly, I assume, by recalling reserve/retired/discharged ex-paratroopers back to active duty. It would have only been 6-7 years since the unit was downsized.
Yep, that makes good sense. There’s enough of a buildup for China that a generalized expansion and recall of high readiness formations would be something that would be tasked out to the NSWP militaries. I don’t think kit is going to be a limiting factor; a recall of the 92 and 93 classes of conscripts, an extension of the 94 class and normal intake of the 95 class would effectively grow the pool of available personnel.

WRT the OT64s, my references show them as alternate transportation in the event the unit was going to be committed outside its normal role. Very easy to add a mechanized/motorized ops workup into the training cycle for China given their likely role as a “fire brigade” and the likely limitations on airborne/air assault ops posed by western supplied MANPADS and SAMs. Kind of like the “airborne-mech” units in 8ID during the earlier era of the Cold War.

Last edited by Homer; 07-24-2023 at 02:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.