Polish 6th Pomeranian Airborne Division

[Homer]

Looking at orbat 89 and some other sources it looks like the 6th was downgraded to a brigade in 1989, with the regiments being downgraded to battalions. By my OB references that makes them pretty small, but 300 ish survivors is still going to gut that force.

Maybe the survivors were reconstituted following the Pact counteroffensive or were folded into a politically reliable national reserve along with the remnants of the Army and Navy Commandos? After all, Poland had a very strong tradition of both airborne and special operations troops.

[Bestbrian]

"-- June 7 - Fighting around Czestochowa destroys the Jasna Gora, home to the Black Madonna. 300 members of the 4th and 16th Parachute Regiments break out to the east. The 1st Parachute Regiment surrenders, and the 6th Pomerian [sic] Air Assault Division ceases to exist. The survivors of the Polish 12th Tank Division and Polish 2nd Motorized Rifle Division escape up the Vistula." According to this timeline: https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1433519198937.pdf. Black Madonna has them linking up with the 12th.

On July 9, tactical nukes start flying and NATO withdraws to Germany.

The 2nd MRD was mauled and converted to horse cavalry. In 2000, it is in Gdynia with 200 cavalry. (East European SB).

12th Cavalry was formed from the survivors of the 11th Tank Division (Koscierzyna/Gniew/Tczew, 1500 cavalry). (EESB)

If you'd like, you can assume that the 12th Cavalry also included remnants from the 12th Tank Division as well as the 11th, which would account for the numbering of the cavalry division. This would place the survivors of the 6th as elements of the 12th Cavalry and/or the 2nd. With the nukes flying not long after the survivors broke out of Czestochowa, I wouldn't have them being maintained by higher HQ as a special cadre. In the crash of civilization, I'd have them absorbed into the 12th or 2nd, perhaps as an elite squadron, but there wouldn't be too many left by 2000.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Homer

Looking at orbat 89 and some other sources it looks like the 6th was downgraded to a brigade in 1989, with the regiments being downgraded to battalions.

True. I can see the 6th being built back up to division strength again in light of the Soviet Union's war with China, especially when Moscow starts demanding Warsaw Pact members contribute fighting forces to the war in the East. They could do that fairly quickly, I assume, by recalling reserve/retired/discharged ex-paratroopers back to active duty. It would have only been 6-7 years since the unit was downsized.

Originally Posted by Homer

Maybe the survivors were reconstituted following the Pact counteroffensive or were folded into a politically reliable national reserve along with the remnants of the Army and Navy Commandos? After all, Poland had a very strong tradition of both airborne and special operations troops.

That's definitely a possibility. It makes sense to consolidate "elite" troops, instead of dispersing them among regular motor rifles units.

The other elite formations in the Polish armed forces during the Cold War were the 7th Naval Assault Division (aka Marines), which is accounted for in T2k canon, and the Podhale Mountain Brigade, which, AFAIK, is not. It's possible that the survivors of 6th Pomeranian Parachute/Air Assault Division (or Brigade) were absorbed into one of those other "elite" units. However, if that were the case with the 7th Marine Division, AFAIK, it's not mentioned in any of the canonical descriptions of that formation.

Come to think of it, where is the Mountain Brigade? Is it mentioned at all in canon? IRL, it was technically part of the Border Guard but I don't recall seeing it mentioned in any of the several entries for Polish Border Guard units in canon. I'll have to take a closer look at that.

Originally Posted by Bestbrian

12th Cavalry was formed from the survivors of the 11th Tank Division (Koscierzyna/Gniew/Tczew, 1500 cavalry). (EESB)

If you'd like, you can assume that the 12th Cavalry also included remnants from the 12th Tank Division as well as the 11th, which would account for the numbering of the cavalry division. This would place the survivors of the 6th as elements of the 12th Cavalry and/or the 2nd. With the nukes flying not long after the survivors broke out of Czestochowa, I wouldn't have them being maintained by higher HQ as a special cadre. In the crash of civilization, I'd have them absorbed into the 12th or 2nd, perhaps as an elite squadron, but there wouldn't be too many left by 2000.

That's also a possibility. It appears that the writers lost track of the 12th TD at some point with they were working up their late war OOBs. It happens- they had a lot to keep track of, and fewer sources to work with. Before I make up destination for those 300 or so surviving Polish paratroopers, though, I'd like to completely exhaust canon. I looked at a couple of indexes of Challenge magazine hoping to spot an article about Polish elite forces (paras, marines, mountain troops) and nothing jumped out at me- in the indexes I was looking at, T2k stuff is listed by title, not subject, so if the title isn't particularly specific, direct, or descriptive, I could be missing it.

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[Raellus]

It's interesting to note that the 6th Pomeranian Parachute Division was equipped with OT-64 APCs and ASU-85 self-propelled assault guns (withdrawn from service in the late 1970s but presumably kept in reserve).

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[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Raellus

It's interesting to note that the 6th Pomeranian Parachute Division was equipped with OT-64 APCs and ASU-85 self-propelled assault guns (withdrawn from service in the late 1970s but presumably kept in reserve).

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The OT-64 SKOT APC was a joint venture of Czechoslovakia and Poland, the Polish called their variants just SKOT (Średni Kołowy Opancerzony Transporter, medium wheeled armoured transporter), while in the ČSSR it was usually just called OT-64 (Obrněný Transportér, armored transporter model 1964) while SKOT was sometimes used as well (here: Střední Kolový Obrněný Transportér, meaning the same thing). The SKOT was probably one of the best wheeled APCs of the Cold War, omitting grave mistakes early Soviet BTR models had - like not rear doors - while allowing for 10-18 troops to be transported.

As with the earlier models of BTR-60s, the initial number of 18 dismounts allowed an easy transit from the BTR-152 as first generation APC, while the later SKOT-2A carried only a reduced amount of 10 troops. This was mostly due to a heavy machine gun being added in form of the BRDM-2 turret. This variant was again modified with two AT-3 Sagger/Malyutka added on either side of the turret. This variant was called SKOT-2AM and offered far more to its units than any BTR ever did back in the days.

With 10 dismounts, Polish infantry squads remained larger than Soviet ones. The OT-64 was better armored, faster and offered better range than all Soviet BTR models, including the BTR-80. The amphibian counterpart to the SKOT was the OT-62 TOPAS (Transportér Obrněný Pásový, "tracked armoured personnel carrier"). It, too, was a joint venture between the two nations, but was based on the Soviet BTR-50 design. Both types of APC were successful as exports with over 1,000 of each going to Middle Eastern and North African countries as well as other destinations from the 1960s onwards.

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Raellus

It's interesting to note that the 6th Pomeranian Parachute Division was equipped with OT-64 APCs and ASU-85 self-propelled assault guns (withdrawn from service in the late 1970s but presumably kept in reserve).

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In my universe, the ASU-85 sees limited service during the Twilight War. I just love these StuG-type vehicles.

However, Poland only bought 31 of these airborne SPGs and they were badly obsolete by the late 70s. With the advent of ATGMs, a UAZ with an AT-3 Sagger posed a greater threat to NATO AFVs than these 15.5 tonnes of cumbersome vintage technology. The ASU-85 is slow, just barely making 45 kph, and never received any updates. There is good reason, the Soviets replaced it with the BMD-1 in 1969.

It'd be interesting to know, what happened with the 31 East German NVA ASU-85. I wouldn't even know what actually happened to them - probably scrapped in Thuringia - much less have I a clue what happened in T2K to them.

[Homer]

Originally Posted by Raellus

True. I can see the 6th being built back up to division strength again in light of the Soviet Union's war with China, especially when Moscow starts demanding Warsaw Pact members contribute fighting forces to the war in the East. They could do that fairly quickly, I assume, by recalling reserve/retired/discharged ex-paratroopers back to active duty. It would have only been 6-7 years since the unit was downsized.

Yep, that makes good sense. There’s enough of a buildup for China that a generalized expansion and recall of high readiness formations would be something that would be tasked out to the NSWP militaries. I don’t think kit is going to be a limiting factor; a recall of the 92 and 93 classes of conscripts, an extension of the 94 class and normal intake of the 95 class would effectively grow the pool of available personnel.

WRT the OT64s, my references show them as alternate transportation in the event the unit was going to be committed outside its normal role. Very easy to add a mechanized/motorized ops workup into the training cycle for China given their likely role as a “fire brigade” and the likely limitations on airborne/air assault ops posed by western supplied MANPADS and SAMs. Kind of like the “airborne-mech” units in 8ID during the earlier era of the Cold War.

[Ursus Maior]

I don't think that would've worked for the LWP - or, depending on the timeline or edition, any other iteration of the Polish Armed Forces. By the early 1980s the baby boomers peaked in militarly availability for conscription. After that, conscription cohorts shrunk massively by about 18 % for the male population.

Diagram 1: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...yramid.svg.png

In combination with the shrinking defense budget and the general detente of the second half of the 1980s, that was the reason, why the LWP decided to downsize the 7th Sea Landing Division and the 6th Airborne Division down to brigade formations in 1986. Ten years later, the Polish economy wouldn't have fared better, because Eastern Bloc austerity and lack of reforms would've meant loosing even more edge against the West as well as the Tiger States of Asia.

While cohorts were rising in strength in the late 1980s again and reaching early 1980s levels by 1990, it makes little sense putting these "surplus" conscripts into specialized brigades to enlarge them into divisions. The coastal brigade had been shifted to coastal defense, loosing half of its artillery as well as its tanks in 1989. The unit was now a light infantry battalion tasked with guarding the Polish coasts. That is not a troop type that would make any sense adding more to, when asked by the Kremlin to muster banners and send forces to the China theater.

It works even less for the airborne brigade, since even during its time as a division it was never structured in regiments, like Soviet VDV division, but had four battalions. Downsizing to brigade level mostly meant activating an air-defense battalion, but not loosing any battalions in the process. In essence, there never were more airborne forces available, the label was simply changed to a better fit.

What Poland most likely would muster for the Chine theater is armored and mechanized forces as well as security troops to guard rear areas. While Poland had one of the best Warsaw Pact armies, its technological standard was still behind the peak of what the Soviet Army could muster. Few T-72s would be available during a surge in the 1990s, with most deployed in active units and only few available from schools and depots. That would largely leave T-54 and T-55, including a few upgraded ones, available for new units. The problem looks similar when looking at IFVs, APCs and SPGs: Poland had few surpluses here and lacked updates, meaning older models would have to be used for new units. In case of SPGs the consequences would be even more extreme: No surpluses meant towed pieces were the only available option, air-defense options would look even worse, with insufficient quantities even for some active divisions.

In the end, forming new divisions for the Chinese theater would mean pilfering active divisions to meet Soviet standards or sending divisions that would be lacking basic combined arms capabilities. Likely a mix would've be found, e. g. one division with prime equipment, two sub-par divisions and several independent security brigades consisting solely of light infantry forces.

[Tegyrius]

How were the Poles fixed for transport aircraft? Would they have ever had the lift for a combat drop of all four battalions (without relying on Soviet support)?

- C.

[Raellus]

@Ursus: I wasn't suggesting that the Polish airborne formation, whether a brigade or a division, would be sent to China- only that global tensions and concern that Polish troops would be ordered by Moscow to join the fight in the east would prompt the Polish military to begin upscaling its elite formations (including the 6th Pomeranian) as a readiness measure.

Re demographics and manpower, I may be oversimplifying this, but it doesn't seem too difficult to simply recall veterans of the division, ages 25-40 or so to add an extra battalion or two.

@Teg: I don't think so. AFAIK, the only heavy transports the Polish AF had were the AN-24, replaced by the AN-26. There were only about a dozen transports available at any one time. I'll have to look up their respective paratroop carrying capacities, but I doubt it was much more than a platoon or so.

According to Osprey publishing, the 6th Pomeranian was fixing to transition from parachute to airmobile (i.e. helicopter) operations in the IRL late 1980s. And with their SKOT APCs and SU-85 assault guns, they were probably always intended to function more as elite light mechanized infantry than proper airborne troops.

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[Nyrond24]

Most Warsaw pact airborne forces were designed to be helicopter inserted, with fixed wing used to bring in 2nd wave support, mass parachute drops were only a capability not a primary insertion.

[ToughOmbres]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

How were the Poles fixed for transport aircraft? Would they have ever had the lift for a combat drop of all four battalions (without relying on Soviet support)?

- C.

According to John Weeks The Airborne Soldier (1982 copyright) Poland as of 1981 had two airborne battalions and a "modern, although small transport fleet" backed up by 100 or so transport helicopters.

WP Armed Forces weren't exactly an open book in the 1980's so your guess is as good as mine how accurate this was in 1981-Poland's airborne certainly evolved by the late Cold War and would have evolved even more in the Twilight War.

[Homer]

You’d also have aircraft from the Polish state airlines (LOT) available, to include AN-24s and some additional AN-26s. Both can be fitted with anchor line cables for static line jumps. AN-26 can carry 30 paratroopers and exit them off the ramp, which also allows for the potential to drop outsized items. The AN-24 was not purpose designed for tactical transport and must be converted. Lacking a ramp, it is limited to personnel and bundles out the door.

An26 jump speed is around 100kt, so lower than that for a C-130. I think the 24 is a little higher but not as high as a C-130. Jumping a Curl is pretty similar to a CASA in that you can use smaller DZs and have less dispersion on your stick for faster assembly on the ground. This also complicates the issue for anti landing forces by opening more areas into potential DZs.

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

How were the Poles fixed for transport aircraft? Would they have ever had the lift for a combat drop of all four battalions (without relying on Soviet support)?

- C.

As @Nyrond24 explained, helicopters were the method of insertion for 6 ABD, but 12 Antonov An-26 were fielded by Poland as well as numerous An-2. But that was that.

@Raellus
They could of course recall veterans, but it comes at a cost. First of all: As I explained, there were no airborne battalions to reconstitute, so new battalions formed would be new battalions indeed, with no weapons - especially heavy - available, unless pilfered from other units or newly produced. Second, there would be hardly any officers available. A battalion needs warrant officers and commissioned officers in a good number. Those don't get retired after conscription service, but have a career. Reassigning them from somewhere else, means crosstraining them and likely not getting the best.

But the biggest question would be: Why? A tenser atmosphere in international security isn't well countered by adding completely new battalions that never existed and re-drafting older personnel into it. These "old guards" are out of shape and hardly motivated to do underpaid, hard work once more. If one recalls reserves in such an environment, one mobilizes a powerful force - i. e. an armored or mechanized division - or, in case of Pact militaries, a border guard brigade. They pack more punch, are harder to kill and have their equipment in storage.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

They could of course recall veterans, but it comes at a cost. First of all: As I explained, there were no airborne battalions to reconstitute, so new battalions formed would be new battalions indeed, with no weapons - especially heavy - available, unless pilfered from other units or newly produced. Second, there would be hardly any officers available. A battalion needs warrant officers and commissioned officers in a good number. Those don't get retired after conscription service, but have a career. Reassigning them from somewhere else, means crosstraining them and likely not getting the best.

You make a good point about a recall of personnel not including many (if any) officers, but I don't think that's an insurmountable obstacle. Active duty officers could be shifted around as needed and internal promotion could make up a lot of the difference.

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

But the biggest question would be: Why?

Why? Because if a country wants to expand its military in a hurry, it's much easier to raise light infantry/light motorized formations than motor rifles or tank formations. That's true in terms of training and equipment. It takes time to pull reserve AFVs out of storage and get them into operational condition. That's going to prolong the raising of motor rifles and tank formations; it's not going to delay the raising of primarily leg infantry formations.

Also, in the v1 timeline, the Soviets wanted its Warsaw Pact allies to contribute mechanized forces for service in China. The timeline indicates reluctance on the part of most WTO nations to send any of their forces to China. Maybe the Poles started their military expansion with a nominally air mobile formation so that they could pretend to comply with Soviet demands for increased military readiness while still claiming to be shorthanded on motor rifles and tank formations, thus excusing delays in compliance.

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

A tenser atmosphere in international security isn't well countered by adding completely new battalions that never existed and re-drafting older personnel into it.

I'm not sure what you mean. The 6th Pomeranian was a division, albeit a smallish one, before it was a downsized to a brigade. We're talking about a relatively small expansion, almost just a backfill. And we're not talking about recalling 40 and 50 year-old former paratroopers. We're talking about a few hundred men that had been discharged 1-5 years before re-expansion (they'd be in their mid-to-late twenties, mostly, maybe early 30s). And elite units almost always have a greater esprit de corps than regular units. Even in mostly conscript armies, those elite units are made up of volunteers. There'd be grumbling, of course, but ultimately, acquiescence.

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