In Defense of the Red Army

[Cdnwolf]

Although flawed... Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising still offers a lot of insight into fighting a war in Central Europe and the beginning of the book gives details on how long it would take to get oil and gas production back on line following a major disaster...

It also looks at the effect on the FEBA and modern aircraft...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Some call it thread necromancy, I call it "revisiting the topic"

After reading through dragoon500ly's post about Soviet equipment and then going back here to reread his thoughts, I am in full agreement with Raellus. Many people too easily dismiss the Soviet Union and the Red Army.

With the benefit of the internet it's easy to find better information about Soviet equipment and better still, with online translation programmes, we can now view a number of Russian sites that give details previously unavailable in the West. One such site has three items of interest, two in particular that could have given NATO something of a surprise.
The following are Google Translate links so be prepared for some weird English.

The ZSU-37-2 This was a contemporary to the ZSU-23-4 with a longer engagement range and meant to support tank regiments. Discontinued from development for unspecified reasons (but probably because the ZSU-23-4 performed better on high-speed targets at lower altitudes)
http://translate.google.com/translat...ate.google.com

The T-74 A proposal for a small-turret tank mounting an external gun. Development ceased due to technical complexity driving up the price of development and production.
http://translate.google.com/translat...ate.google.com

The VAG-73 caseless ammunition pistol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerasimenko_VAG-73
http://translate.google.com/translat...Fdogswar.ru%2F

There's also the series of 9x39mm silent weapons developed in the late 1980s (VSS Vintorez, AS Val), various weapons for combat divers (ASM-DT, ADS), the very well developed work on variable geometry afterburner nozzles (along with the supersonic VTOL Yak-41M AKA Yak-141), other rifles to replace the AK/AKM series (such as the TKB-0146 bullpup or the AO-38 rifle, the first to use the 'Balanced Automatic Recoil System, other link here or the Soviet equivalent to Project SALVO such as the TKB-059, the Kamov V-100 project for a high-speed attack helicopter, the Mil Mi-30 tilt-rotor project, the 80.002 combination assault rifle & grenade launcher and so on.

I hope that what's illustrated here is that the Soviets were not simply sitting back and constantly improving old designs to try and hold out against the West, but that they too indulged in a varied R&D programme to explore other ideas in an effort to compete and maybe beat, the West.
I'm not saying that the Soviets would have easily beaten NATO or even that they could have beaten NATO at all but I am saying that measuring the Soviet Union by the standards of the Gorbachev era leads to an easy dismissal of their abilities.

[Legbreaker]

I 100% agree. It would be interesting if we had a similar amount of input from 1970-80 era ex Soviet soliders as we do from western forces (mainly US). On the other hand, national pride might end up with numerous flame wars...

[Raellus]

I think another reason it's tempting to underestimate the Soviet military is that, for a time in the early '90s, their military org/tech/training etc. was "frozen in time" while the West was making strides forward in the wake of the wildly successful Desert Shield/Storm campaign. In fact, if anything, the Russian military in the early '90s was regressing as military funding dried up and new strategic realities started sinking in. It's easy to remember the beaten MRDs withdrawing across that last bridge between Afghanistan and the soon-to-ex-Soviet republics in '89, or the loyalist Russian tanks shelling the rebellious troops in the high-rise ministry, or the rusting hulks of ex-Soviet navy ships and submarines stuck in port. Those last images are pathetic and really don't do the Soviet military justice.

It's easy to forget that a v1.0 Soviet military would have been moving forward during the '90s, if not keeping pace with the West, then at least trying their damnedest to do so.

This is why I prefer to remember the Soviet Military as they seemed during my childhood (the '80s)- a huge, somewhat mysterious entity that posed a clear and present danger to the NATO countries.

[pmulcahy11b]

If nothing else, one should never underestimate their opponents.

[pmulcahy11b]

@Cynic:

Ooohhh, new stuff for the "Best Stuff That Never Was" pages! It'll take more research than on those pages, however. It's a good start, though.

[Raellus]

I can't remember if it has been previously pointed out in this thread, but the Soviet-made T-72s that were spanked by American M1 Abrams and British Challengers in both Iraq wars were bare-bones export models that had down-graded optics and manual-only turret traverses. Soviet T-72s, although inferior in nearly every aspect to contemporary NATO MBTs, would have been significantly more capable than the Republican Guards' T-72s. I really wonder how the battle of 73 Easting would have gone down if it had been Soviet Guards tankers that the American ACRs were going up against. I doubt that they would have won that fight, but they sure as hell would have made it a lot costlier in terms of men and material for the Americans.

Extensively upgraded T-55s, T-62s, T-72s, T-80s, and T-90s (and these surely would have been rolled out during the '90s had the Cold War continued) are fairly capable MBTs and they would have been thrown at the West in numbers that NATO simply couldn't match.

[Legbreaker]

Absolutely agree with that.
As has been stated time and time again, the Iraqi's simply cannot be compared to what would have been faced by Nato in Europe. In 1991 and again a decade later, Iraq was all alone, equipped with second grade vehicles and weapons, and their training standard can only be described as laughable. Add in that they'd only just finished fighting Iran and the vast bulk of their best units had been destroyed....

Obviously the Iraqi commanders made some fatal mistakes in 91, and the willingness of the troops to fight was, on the whole, rather lacking. If they'd been competantly led, properly trained and organised, it may well have been a different matter.

Granted the Pact forces at the time have proven to be fairly poorly prepared, however that state of affairs is not what the game is based upon. In the T2K universe, the Pact were a strong and credible force, ready, able and willing to do serious damage.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Raellus

This is why I prefer to remember the Soviet Military as they seemed during my childhood (the '80s)- a huge, somewhat mysterious entity that posed a clear and present danger to the NATO countries.

"clear and present danger"? Holy crap, man, by your estimation we should've just surrendered outright since not only were they numerically superior they were up to par in every other way as well.

I mean, if they really had the drop on us that bad, why didn't they just send the balloon up? Surely they had a vastly more cavalier attitude vis-a-vis "getting our hair mussed" in "toe-to-toe nuclear combat". I mean, they had everything the Walkers had leaked to them, they obviously had the numbers and they apparently had the tactics and troop quality to beat us at every turn. Why no statue of Lenin in Antwerp, then?

(Erm...that sounds ill-tempered but it's not meant to be, I promise.)

[Legbreaker]

Nobody is saying that man for man, tank to tank, aircraft to aircraft the Pact were an equal match. Their entire doctrine wasn't about being equal on that level, but swamping the west with masses of barely adequate men and machines. As it turns out, they didn't even manage the "barely" part, especially once the Communist countries started to crumble.

Remember though that T2K is a game. It's not supposed to reflect reality, but rather the perception of what was reality - in other words, the west thought the east had the ability to steamroll their forces, and reacted accordingly. The game is built from the ground up on these assumptions, guesses, fabrications and downright lies with a little reality thrown in for flavour.

The game is a product of the early 1980s and the general hysteria that went with it. There's no way that it could be made today looking back, knowing the true capabilities and economics of the period. Applying modern knowledge in my opinion radically alters the basic premise of the game, unbalancing the situation and essentially making it unplayable as a believable post apocalyptic setting.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

"clear and present danger"? Holy crap, man, by your estimation we should've just surrendered outright since not only were they numerically superior they were up to par in every other way as well.

I mean, if they really had the drop on us that bad, why didn't they just send the balloon up? Surely they had a vastly more cavalier attitude vis-a-vis "getting our hair mussed" in "toe-to-toe nuclear combat". I mean, they had everything the Walkers had leaked to them, they obviously had the numbers and they apparently had the tactics and troop quality to beat us at every turn. Why no statue of Lenin in Antwerp, then?

(Erm...that sounds ill-tempered but it's not meant to be, I promise.)

Yeah, a little ill-tempered. I'll try to keep the snark to a minimum.

Clearly, you misunderstand my thesis. I've never argued that the Soviets/WTO were qualitatively superior in any way (save numbers) to NATO. My point is that some folks here and elsewhere seriously underestimate what they could have done in their prime, or had the Cold War continued through the 1990s. They were not the push-overs many claim them to have been. 20-20 hindsight in this matter is a myth. Just because they lost in Afghanistan (are we "winning" there now?) and the gear they sold to Iraq was crap doesn't mean NATO would have walked over them like some folks seem to imagine. I stick by that thesis.

My essay is an apologetic for the T2K v1.0 history, that's all. If the Soviet military as a whole sucked as bad as some folks out there (and here) believe, the T2K scenario simply wouldn't happen.

If you disagree- and apparently you do- and what I've posted in this thread doesn't sway you, then clearly nothing will. I just wonder how you justify a T2K scenario. I'm not comparing you to Hitler, but didn't the French in 1812 and the Germans in 1941 make the same mistake Soviet-bashers are now? Was it Santayana who wrote "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"? I just don't see the logic or fun in a T2K'er arguing strongly against the Soviet military.

[HorseSoldier]

I can't remember if it has been previously pointed out in this thread, but the Soviet-made T-72s that were spanked by American M1 Abrams and British Challengers in both Iraq wars were bare-bones export models that had down-graded optics and manual-only turret traverses. Soviet T-72s, although inferior in nearly every aspect to contemporary NATO MBTs, would have been significantly more capable than the Republican Guards' T-72s. I really wonder how the battle of 73 Easting would have gone down if it had been Soviet Guards tankers that the American ACRs were going up against. I doubt that they would have won that fight, but they sure as hell would have made it a lot costlier in terms of men and material for the Americans.

The Russians have been saying that since about the moment US forces made it through to 74 Easting . . . I'm not sure how much I buy the claims, to be honest (and I'm definitely not part of the US or NATO uber alles crowd) -- that information seems to have been loudly distributed by the Russians after their market share took a huge hit after 91, not from technical intelligence analysis, though I may be wrong on that.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

The Russians have been saying that since about the moment US forces made it through to 74 Easting . . . I'm not sure how much I buy the claims, to be honest (and I'm definitely not part of the US or NATO uber alles crowd) -- that information seems to have been loudly distributed by the Russians after their market share took a huge hit after 91, not from technical intelligence analysis, though I may be wrong on that.

The fact that Iraqi T-72s didn't have powered turret traverse has been conceded by the U.S. military, if not independently verified. I don't think anyone is contradicting that.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Yeah, a little ill-tempered. I'll try to keep the snark to a minimum.

Clearly, you misunderstand my thesis.

I did, I see that and I apologize if I was perceived as having brought the snark first. I didn't intend to, trust me.

I've never argued that the Soviets/WTO were qualitatively superior in any way (save numbers) to NATO. My point is that some folks here and elsewhere seriously underestimate what they could have done in their prime, or had the Cold War continued through the 1990s. They were not the push-overs many claim them to have been. 20-20 hindsight in this matter is a myth. Just because they lost in Afghanistan (are we "winning" there now?) and the gear they sold to Iraq was crap doesn't mean NATO would have walked over them like some folks seem to imagine. I stick by that thesis.
[/quote]

Oh no, no, I don't think that was the case at all and you certainly make the point clearly.

My essay is an apologetic for the T2K v1.0 history, that's all. If the Soviet military as a whole sucked as bad as some folks out there (and here) believe, the T2K scenario simply wouldn't happen.

I see that now and I hope you don't think I was one questioning the plausibility of the scenario. I apologize for not reading further.

If you disagree- and apparently you do- and what I've posted in this thread doesn't sway you, then clearly nothing will.

No no, it was just misunderstanding on my part.

I just wonder how you justify a T2K scenario. I'm not comparing you to Hitler, but didn't the French in 1812 and the Germans in 1941 make the same mistake Soviet-bashers are now? Was it Santayana who wrote "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"? I just don't see the logic or fun in a T2K'er arguing strongly against the Soviet military.

Hey, I'm in agreement with you. Without a roundhouse kick to the ass for the remnants of NATO in the summer of 2000, the game becomes Red Dawn!

So, again, I misunderstood and again I wasn't upset at your assertions, and I hope we can put this behind - because I'm in agreement with you.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Nobody is saying that man for man, tank to tank, aircraft to aircraft the Pact were an equal match. Their entire doctrine wasn't about being equal on that level, but swamping the west with masses of barely adequate men and machines. As it turns out, they didn't even manage the "barely" part, especially once the Communist countries started to crumble.

Remember though that T2K is a game. It's not supposed to reflect reality, but rather the perception of what was reality - in other words, the west thought the east had the ability to steamroll their forces, and reacted accordingly. The game is built from the ground up on these assumptions, guesses, fabrications and downright lies with a little reality thrown in for flavour.

The game is a product of the early 1980s and the general hysteria that went with it. There's no way that it could be made today looking back, knowing the true capabilities and economics of the period. Applying modern knowledge in my opinion radically alters the basic premise of the game, unbalancing the situation and essentially making it unplayable as a believable post apocalyptic setting.

I read you loud and clear, and everything I said to Rael applies equally here.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

The Russians have been saying that since about the moment US forces made it through to 74 Easting . . . I'm not sure how much I buy the claims, to be honest (and I'm definitely not part of the US or NATO uber alles crowd) -- that information seems to have been loudly distributed by the Russians after their market share took a huge hit after 91, not from technical intelligence analysis, though I may be wrong on that.

Indeed, until 74 Easting, the T72 was the hottest seller the Russians had, post 74 Easting, they had hard times giving them away. Now, to be fair, the Russians have a point: The ones the Iraqi's had was really second class versions of them: The later T72's, with all the bells and whistles, are in fairness decent tanks. Equal to first line western tanks? No, but more than adequate for most uses. Especially since they are cheap. When you get right to it, the T90 is the Russian response to that battle. The T90 is nothing more than an very upgraded T72 - some things I have read is that more than a few of the T90's floating about are rebuilt 72's.

If I was a country that needed a tank arm, one that had a fair chance of facing down modern western tanks, I wouldn't hesitate to pick up the T72 if I couldn't afford western tanks myself. Of course, part of the savings would go towards quantity, but most would go to training. I really do think, that a topflight T72/90, with a crew that has trained as hard and as well as a topflight western tank crew, can give a good accounting of themselves - within reason of course.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Indeed, until 74 Easting, the T72 was the hottest seller the Russians had, post 74 Easting, they had hard times giving them away. Now, to be fair, the Russians have a point: The ones the Iraqi's had was really second class versions of them: The later T72's, with all the bells and whistles, are in fairness decent tanks. Equal to first line western tanks? No, but more than adequate for most uses. Especially since they are cheap. When you get right to it, the T90 is the Russian response to that battle. The T90 is nothing more than an very upgraded T72 - some things I have read is that more than a few of the T90's floating about are rebuilt 72's.

If I was a country that needed a tank arm, one that had a fair chance of facing down modern western tanks, I wouldn't hesitate to pick up the T72 if I couldn't afford western tanks myself. Of course, part of the savings would go towards quantity, but most would go to training. I really do think, that a topflight T72/90, with a crew that has trained as hard and as well as a topflight western tank crew, can give a good accounting of themselves - within reason of course.

That is one of the things that Soviets and later Russian did understand. Up until the US fielded the M1 and the Germans, French, and UK generation of tanks came online. They had enjoyed for the most part having tanks that were Superior if not equal to the various NATO Counterparts.

With the introduction of the generation of tanks in the 80s by NATO had even the playing field for the units that would be doing the fighting in the early stages. At this time as the Soviets had watch in the late 1960s and 1970s were being tested and the fielded had placed their latest tanks into units based in Ukraine and Western military districts in the Soviet Union knowing these units would be third string. Most of these new tanks were in Tank Armies and Group of Tank Armies. One of the reasonings was to keep NATO from knowing of the best, and not really give them clear view. Kinda like the shock the Germans units had when they came up against unknown T-34 equipped unit in the early days of of Operations against the Soviet Union. While the Motorized Rifle units would get equipment handed down from soviet units to west.

One of the thing I do wonder is how friendly the Russia and China are now. I know for all practical purpose they seem to be real friendly. Then again in the 1960s they appeared friendly, but had some nasty fight along the Amur River.

[Panther Al]

Not very these days- most of the large increase in spending the russians are doing is earmarked for the far east. The official line is that japan is giving trouble over the disputed islands, yet all the military hardware that is or has been sent by by both nations are pionted at China - not each other.

[dragoon500ly]

[QUOTE=StainlessSteelCynic;27375]Some call it thread necromancy, I call it "revisiting the topic"

After reading through dragoon500ly's post about Soviet equipment and then going back here to reread his thoughts, I am in full agreement with Raellus. Many people too easily dismiss the Soviet Union and the Red Army.[\QUOTE]

LOL

And to think I was always getting my tail end chewed off for showing the Soviets as "Supermen" in the OPFOR classes!

The two things that have always impressed me about the Soviets is the quantity and simplicty of their equipment and the workmanlike approach that they follow as far as tactics go.

[Legbreaker]

The Soveits really knew how to boil it all down to the KISS principle...

[Tackleberry]

Quantity does have its own quality though.

Even with the Challengers, M1's and Leopards the North German plain would have been a very interesting punch up.

If you consider that in every exercise I took part in in the 80's Royal Air Force in Germany, we went "Chemical" straight away and "Nuclear" after 3 days.

IF the Russians had come over the border in either August (summer holidays) or at Xmas time, with everyone at skeleton manning. And without the time to reinforce I think the Red army would have made it to the Rhine, in the perfect Tank country of North Germany.

Once their supply lines got that extended it would have stopped them, but it would certainly have been close.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Tackleberry

IF the Russians had come over the border in either August (summer holidays) or at Xmas time, with everyone at skeleton manning. And without the time to reinforce I think the Red army would have made it to the Rhine, in the perfect Tank country of North Germany.

And with most of the personnel elsewhere, much of the prepositioned vehicles and supplies would have to be left behind as those few troops on the ground were forced back. Could have been absolutely crippling for NATO. Give the Soviets a few weeks for their logisitics to sort themselves out and they'd have been ready to push over the Rhine, through France and potentially take out Europe entirely.

NATO may have been able to fly in troops quickly enough during that pause, but with most of their equipment already behind enemy lines, more bodies on the ground wouldn't mean very much.

[Panther Al]

The only problem with the "Holiday Blitz" is that it takes a little while to go from sitting around in the motorpool to ready to kick ass and take names. This will get spotted, and while it might not be enough to warn that they are about to roll west, it is enough that leaves and such will be cancelled. So, there won't be a situation such as that.

However:

There is always a catch. In Red Storm Rising, Clancy used a surprise attack- with the surprise being on both NATO, and most of the Russian Troops as well. Going from Motorpool to combat ops with no getting ready for it is sure to be a shocking surprise, and one that would let the Russians fall on units that are not there because they are off skiing in the alps. Of course, you had better hope that you can back the play, as you won't have much in logistics built up.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I've never argued that the Soviets/WTO were qualitatively superior in any way (save numbers) to NATO. My point is that some folks here and elsewhere seriously underestimate what they could have done in their prime, or had the Cold War continued through the 1990s. They were not the push-overs many claim them to have been. 20-20 hindsight in this matter is a myth. Just because they lost in Afghanistan (are we "winning" there now?) and the gear they sold to Iraq was crap doesn't mean NATO would have walked over them like some folks seem to imagine. I stick by that thesis.

My essay is an apologetic for the T2K v1.0 history, that's all. If the Soviet military as a whole sucked as bad as some folks out there (and here) believe, the T2K scenario simply wouldn't happen.

If you disagree- and apparently you do- and what I've posted in this thread doesn't sway you, then clearly nothing will. I just wonder how you justify a T2K scenario. I'm not comparing you to Hitler, but didn't the French in 1812 and the Germans in 1941 make the same mistake Soviet-bashers are now? Was it Santayana who wrote "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"? I just don't see the logic or fun in a T2K'er arguing strongly against the Soviet military.

Once again Raellus you've put things exactly as I see them but in a better way than I could have. Agree with all of the above.

[Webstral]

The “standing start” model of Soviet offensive received a lot of attention back in the day, partially because it was the option that scared the West the most. What scares us the most isn’t necessarily the most likely. The Soviets were terrified of a third invasion of the Soviet Union by Germany, but NATO had no real plans for invading the USSR. By the same token, a standing start invasion by the Pact may have looked awfully scary, but the whole package didn’t fit with Soviet thinking.


Webstral

[HorseSoldier]

I seem to recall that once the walls came down there was a realization that the Soviets had no non-nuclear plans for an offensive into western Europe. Had the balloon gone up they planned to use tac nukes early and often to break up NATO ground and air forces. I would take this to suggest the Soviets had some serious questions about their abilities versus NATO -- at least insofar as if their forces could deliver a knock out blow fast enough to prevent a war turning into a matter of industrial output and attrition, which they don't seem to have thought they could win.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I seem to recall that once the walls came down there was a realization that the Soviets had no non-nuclear plans for an offensive into western Europe. Had the balloon gone up they planned to use tac nukes early and often to break up NATO ground and air forces. I would take this to suggest the Soviets had some serious questions about their abilities versus NATO -- at least insofar as if their forces could deliver a knock out blow fast enough to prevent a war turning into a matter of industrial output and attrition, which they don't seem to have thought they could win.

The Soviets knew if they initiated the war, they would have to conclude very quickly. If you look at how if they were able to move things forward without giving us warning, it would still take week or more for their second and third echelon units make their way forward. The major hurdle is that their second echelon was made up of mostly Cat 2 and Cat 3 Pact forces that would take that long if not longer to mobilized.

These units would have to be mobilized and on the move before the third echelon units moved forward, or else an option would of been to move the third echelon forces up, before mobilizing the Pact forces and then mobilizing them and moving them forward to help consolidate any gains.

In the end the Soviets knew if they started a war first off, they would have use their forces in East Germany and Czech. These Groups of Forces were so large due to the fact that if Moscow started the war, these were most likely be the only troops to see most of the action. They also realized if they had done this, their second echelon would have to wait to be mobilized until their ready to move third echelon had moved through.

If the Second Echelon units had made it to the war as the 2nd Echelon, they would making it to the battle in little better state than Soviet Tank and Mechanized Corps of WWII era. Especially considering many of the tanks in this Echelon included T-55s and T-62s.

So in this case the use of Nuclear and Chemical would be needed in the eyes of the Soviet to eliminate such things as staging areas for reinforcements from the UK and US. As well as taking out command and control centers. Just some thoughts.

[Adm.Lee]

Funny this should come up this week. I am in a PBEM game of GDW's "Third World War," and I kicked off the standing-start offensive yesterday. In that game, nukes aren't allowed on the first turn (I suppose we could have house-ruled that), and the Pact allies' forces are frozen on "Turn 0."

So far, the surprise air attack was no Pearl Harbor or Clark Field, I lost more planes than I grounded.

[Tackleberry]

[QUOTE=avantman42;10797The only difference between the British SLR and the Argentinian FAL, as you've mentioned, is that the SLR didn't do full-auto. At least, not officially: I've heard from several ex-soldiers that inserting a match in the correct place made it fire full-auto.[/QUOTE]

It fired full auto until the magazine ran out, 1 shot hit not much.

The safety catch on the SLR could be "adapted" by removing the bent of metal that was put there to stop the selector switching to the full auto setting. Or at a push the FAL catch could fit, but why would anyone want to do it, unless firing blanks, is the question. The SLR barrel was not as heavy as the FN barrel, so it wouldn't take too many 20 round bursts, before accuracy would suffer. Plus the gas system would foul very quickly.

There is a reason for the GPMG being in service, almost the personal weapon of the Paras in the Falklands. In my opinion, the best General purpose 7.62x51mm machine gun.................................In the world.

[perardua]

Originally Posted by Tackleberry

There is a reason for the GPMG being in service, almost the personal weapon of the Paras in the Falklands. In my opinion, the best General purpose 7.62x51mm machine gun.................................In the world.

If there was a 'Like' button on this forum, I would be using it here. Spent most of my last Afghan tour behind a GPMG - it was the place to be.