OT - Khadaffy's regime falling

[kato13]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I do disagree on the analyzis of the facts you present though. Many factors should be examined such as economic development and resources etc.

I will do a GPD per capita analysis compared to patents. Africa's very poor performance is one factor that support your conclusion of a economic dependance, but I think on average the Islamic nations will fall more into the lines of South America in term of socioeconomic development. Compared to SA, my cursory read is that the Islamic nations are well behind.

Originally Posted by headquarters

Also I would like to point out that Islam is a religion and not a culture.

Again I spoke of countries where Islam is dominant. I know polls can be flawed, but I have seen several polls where, in Islamic nations a majority of the respondents wanted greater religious influence in their politics and their lives (or even greater adoption of Sharia law). To me that equates with culture (traditions reinforced by the group), but we may be looking at different definitions of the word.

The beliefs of Muslims in Muslim dominated nations seems radically different from what I have been exposed here in the US. I live near the highest concentration of Pakistani immigrants in the country. One thing that i find so ironic is the conflict between India and Pakistan evaporates once they hit our shores. Their cultures are so similar (and so different from American culture) that they band together in shopping, restaurants and recreation. For example they are the only two immigrant cultures I have seen play cricket (often against each other).

Originally Posted by headquarters

As for percieved stagnation in moslem countries today - I agree that the center of development is not in those countries today.

Agreed.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Joking aside, I would actually be very interested to know what the patents are.

This may take a while as it looks the country code for Japan (JP) and South Korea (KR) being erroneously entered as KP (North Korea) are MUCH more common than any actual North Korean patents. I will keep digging as I have time.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by kato13

The beliefs of Muslims in Muslim dominated nations seems radically different from what I have been exposed here in the US. I live near the highest concentration of Pakistani immigrants in the country. One thing that i find so ironic is the conflict between India and Pakistan evaporates once they hit our shores. Their cultures are so similar (and so different from American culture) that they band together in shopping, restaurants and recreation. For example they are the only two immigrant cultures I have seen play cricket (often against each other).

This will be equally true for every community living in a foreign environment. I have seen the same being done by Israeli, Palestinians and Christian Lebanese residing in France where they are often best friends. It has nothing to do with the common point in their culture but simply with the fact that they perceive (follow me I'm talking of a perception not of a reality) the country in which they arrive as being aggresive toward them. In a sense they are right but this aggression comes equally from their own attitude that from anything else.

I didn't do anything else when I arrived in US and it is only after six month that I grew tired of sticking with the french community and took some distance. I was not sitcking with them because we had so much in common (several of them were such jerks that under normal circomstances, I would have not even talk to them) but because I was distrustful of US citizens. Being often threaten by decerabrated Christian US youngsters doesn't help. Then, after a while, you get out or leave. When I explain to most of my friend that I'm writing on this board they ask me how many times I get screamed at, LOL.

Patent is the least relevant element you can use to qualify a society. It is not relevant because we are now putting patent on everything and because US patent are not always held by US citizens. Moreover, holding a patent doesn't solely mean that you are inventive and creative, it means that you put money in getting them. It, however, can signify three things: that your country is perceived as rich (therefore, people acquire your patents in order to make money), that your country is stable (It is much harder to invent anything when you spend most of your day running for your life) and that it grants you a real freedom (You don't claim to have invented anything when that can throw you into jail). All of this has nothing to do with religion but only with politics. By the way, it is interesting to note that for the last 50 years, most of the countries you are talking about have been held by secular, socialist dictators while all have been dominated by a strong military (and that includes Turkey). Would military domination be a limitation to civil development?

Here are the 10 top current individual patent holders in US (2005):
1) Shunpei Yamazaki, Japan, 1,432 patents (semiconductors).
2) Donald Weder, Highland, III., 1,322 (flowers and no, I'm not kidding).
3) Kia Silverbrook, Sydney, 801 (in 1997, no Australian was present in the top 100).
4) George Spector, New York, 723 (Among his patent, a computerized mousetrap).
5) Gurtej Sandhu, Boise, 576.
6) Warren Farnworth, Boise, 547.
7) Salman Akram, Boise, 527.
All three work for Micron Technology, Idaho. To note, the patent attorneys' offices are right in the labs.
8) Mark Gardner, Cedar Creek, Texas, 512 (microprocessors).
9) Heinze Focke, Verden, Germany, 508 (packaging).
10) Joseph Straeter, Highland, III., 477 (flower... again and most of its patents are shared by Weder for whom he works).

source: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columni...3-patent_x.htm

By 2011, the first place in US patent holder has been taken by Kia Silverbrook (4097). He is also holding the first place in International Patent (9042). Funny to see that the current most prolific inventor is coming from a country which is among the most stable you can find. That must makes Australia being far superior to the rest of the world.

Also, Thomas Edison long held a record of 1093 patents. Does it means that he had been the most important genious of all time? Then does the fact that Donald Weder currently holds 229 more patents (on flowers) means that Weder did more to society progress than Edison?

The most prolific current woman inventor in US only holds 126 patents. Do I have to conclude from it that US women are so much inferior or simply that US is almost as much a backward country when it comes to women than Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan? Of course my answer to both question is no! It, however, illustrate the danger of jumping to quick conclusion using a single element.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

That must makes Australia being far superior to the rest of the world.

No arguement from here about that!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

That must makes Australia being far superior to the rest of the world.

I thought everybody knew that!

[Panther Al]

Huh, but while knowing an Aussie holds top place and giving all due credit, still think you west islanders still can't quite match the greatness that is NZed.

[Webstral]

Patents are a data point. Like every other data point, a data point on patents has its place in making assessments.

We should be wary of trying to draw connections between the fact that Muslims in Muslim countries want to have religion play a larger role in the affairs of the nation and a low number of patents. Just as a man and a woman standing next to each other are not necessarily lovers or family members, two facts next to each other do not necessarily have a cause-and-effect relationship or even similar causes.

At the risk of generalizing, many moderate Muslims who want to see religion play a larger role in the running of the nation are reacting to Western popular culture. Like many Americans of any faith, moderate Muslims often are disenchanted by the values of American pop culture: loveless sexuality, insatiable consumerism, rampant and irresponsible individualism, violence, disrespect for elders and family, and predatory capitalism. Heck, I don't want my children taking on those values. Moderate Muslims are well aware that modern science and technology provide enormous benefits to society. They just aren't certain that they want to become Beverly Hills 90210. The best defense against pop culture values is a solid grounding in Islam, from the standpoint of many of the world's Muslims.

Of course, one can always find the Wahabbists in the equation. For decades, Saudi Arabia's oil wealth and marriage of necessity to Wahabbism has resulted in the dissemination of extremist interpretations of Islam throughout the Muslim world. Though a minority, Wahabbists are loud and pushy. Like any extremist group, they give the impression that they are much greater in number than they are. So it entirely possible to find voices throughout the Muslim world for the establishment of states based on shari'a.

It's a shame Saddam Hussein invaded Iran before the Iranian Revolution sorted itself out. When Hussein came in, Khomeini & Co. were not in a strong position. The pro-Western Iranians enjoyed wide support. Just how things would have gone in another year is open to interpretation. But the Iraqi invasion allowed Khomeini & Co. to rally the Iranian populace and silence any opposition. A Western-oriented Iran sans the shah might have given the rest of the Muslim world a middle road to travel. Ah, history! So much turns on the decisions of dictators.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Patents are a data point. Like every other data point, a data point on patents has its place in making assessments.

Entirely agree

[Panther Al]

I always felt that what happened in Iran is one of the biggest missed opertonities in recent memory. Until Saddam invaded it was looking more and more that a reasonable moderate and slightly pro-western government was going to come out of the chaos that was Iran, but to give the devil his due, the play the religious hardliners made when Iraq came over the border was a smart play- put them in the public eye as those that was willing to defend Iran while the reasonable (by western standards) just wanted to talk about things.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Huh, but while knowing an Aussie holds top place and giving all due credit, still think you west islanders still can't quite match the greatness that is NZed.

I hold dual Australian-New Zealand citizenship. 'Nuff said

[Legbreaker]

Obviously can't make up your mind to become truely superior by dropping the kiwi act....
At least you married one of us though.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Targan

I hold dual Australian-New Zealand citizenship. 'Nuff said

Hedging your bets for the World Cup?

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Also I would like to point out that Islam is a religion and not a culture. Moslems are as diverse as most other people that adhere to other world religions - spanning from Indonesia to Norway.

That point can be argued. In some countries Islam IS a culture and totaly integrated into the cultural identity of that nation just as Judaism in Israel and Catholicism in Rome.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

That point can be argued. In some countries Islam IS a culture and totaly integrated into the cultural identity of that nation just as Judaism in Israel and Catholicism in Rome.

I agree to that but it is in no way a monolitic culture.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I agree to that but it is in no way a monolitic culture.

Very true. Arabic islam is very different to Chinese islam or bosnian islam.

[Targan]

And Shiites have some pretty major theological differences with Sunnis. Then there are your radical jihadist Wahabis, and they all consider Sufis to be freaky heretics... etc, etc.

[simonmark6]

I was invited to a talk by an Iman by some of my pupils and discovered that they were from a small Pakistani sect that actually believed that the Messiah had come and had been born to their sect about a hundred years ago. Other followers of Islam in the audience were as amazed as I was, there seem to be lots of little sects around, maybe not as many as there are Christian sects, but enough to stop it being monolithic.

[Sanjuro]

I find your lack of loyalty to the dear leader disturbing.

It's because of that kind of disloyalty that he's so ronery...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

Just seen some footage on the tv. Interviews with "rebels". But the scene that caught my eye was an old man, he had big bullet-linked chain, maybe 10 or 12 round belts that were empty. He was putting large calibre rounds (25mm or 30mm is my guess) into the chain link. One bullet at a time he put a round in a link, then with a wooden mallet hammered it once to force the round into the link, then he put the second round in & hammered it ....

What scares the pants off me is seeing footage of armed men emptying magazines straight up into the air in celebration. how many of the wounded in their hospitals are battle casualties and how many are results of that absolute stupidity!?
My guess is, based on more footage of their tactics (empty a mag from the hip in the general direction of the enemy), that "accidents" account for a very large percentage of their casualties.

What's even worse than the small arms is the ZSU-23-2 I saw on the back of a pick up firing straight up (and obviously not at a plane) from within the concrete jungle of a city (possibly Tripoli). 5.45 and 7.62 are nasty enough when they come back down, but 23mm HE is really going to leave a bruise!

[Webstral]

When Iraq beat Saudi Arabia in the 2005 or 2006 World Cup playoffs, the city lit up with "happy fire". It looked like the images of the first night of air attacks in Operation Desert Storm. Forty-nine people died from flying objects coming back down. Fortunately, I was under the roof of an observation tower and not on foot patrol.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

What scares the pants off me is seeing footage of armed men emptying magazines straight up into the air in celebration. how many of the wounded in their hospitals are battle casualties and how many are results of that absolute stupidity!?

I agree with you but I have seen much more stupid things. I recently bought a crossbow and, then, received advertisements from the saler. These advertisement were for gunsets intended for celebrations: go at a fest or weddings and fire your gun in hanger to celebrate (with blanks but still).

[simonmark6]

My mother picked up on this too, she was concerned by three things:
1) She thought you were supposed to point the shooty bit at the enemy
2) It seemed wasteful of ammunition
3) It was leaving a lot of mess on the floors unnecessarily

She thought that Libyan mothers needed to have a word...

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

My mother picked up on this too, she was concerned by three things:
1) She thought you were supposed to point the shooty bit at the enemy
2) It seemed wasteful of ammunition
3) It was leaving a lot of mess on the floors unnecessarily

She thought that Libyan mothers needed to have a word...

She has a point, got to love our old mums.

[natehale1971]

This is just One of the reasons many are worried about the Arab Spring... Especially the talk about covering up, or even destroying Ancient Egyptian artifacts like they did in Afghanisan.

Egypt’s Brotherhood declares war on the bikini
Source: (TML) Reporter: TML Staff
Location: Jerusalem, Israel Published: August 24, 2011 11:44 am EDT
Topics: Lifestyle And Leisure, Tourism, Religion And Belief, Islam, Politics

Sunbathing in Alexandria may soon be a thing of the past, at least if some Egyptian Islamist politicians have their way.

Egypt's tourism industry has suffered a severe blow since the outburst of anti-regime demonstrations in January. But that did not stop the Freedom and Justice Party, the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood, from demanding stricter regulations over what tourists can do and wear while visiting the country. The party is urging officials to ban skimpy swimwear and the consumption of alcohol on Egyptian streets.

"Beach tourism must take the values and norms of our society into account," Muhammad Saad Al-Katatny, secretary-general of Freedom and Justice, told Egyptian tourism officials on Monday. "We must place regulations on tourists wishing to visit Egypt, which we will announce in advance."

The call for new strictures on tourists comes as Egypt debates the role of Islam in the post-Mubarak era. Freedom and Justice is competing in elections scheduled for this autumn for parliament and opinion polls show a majority of Egyptians favor a greater use of Islamic law and mores. But a vocal minority worries that Egypt risks becoming an Islamic republic.

"This is how things began in Iran," Hani Henry, a psychology professor at the American University in Cairo, told The Media Line. "The moderate youth wanted to implement changes, but the mullah's hijacked the revolution. The same thing is now happening here in Egypt with the Muslim Brotherhood. It makes me sick to my stomach."

Along with Suez Canal tolls and energy exports, tourism is a major source of foreign exchange for Egypt. But with protests, strikes, and continued violence in the cities and Sinai Peninsula months after President Husni Mubarak was forced to step down, foreigners have hesitated to visit the country, which offers some of the world’s most spectacular antiquities as well as beaches and scuba diving.

Finance Minister Hazem Al-Beblawi told the Reuters news agency earlier this month that revenue from tourism would likely total $10 billion in the financial year that started on July 1, compared with $11.6 billion in 2009/10.

Al-Katatny told Al-Masry Al-Youm daily that his party had already set up a subcommittee to investigate the issue of incoming tourism to Egypt and planned to amend legislation following the upcoming parliamentary elections.

"Some slight changes will be made in public beaches, to make the situation better than it was before," Ali Khafagy, youth director of Freedom and Justice in Giza, told The Media Line. "Bathing suits and mixing on the beach are things that go against our tradition. It's not just a matter of religion. When I go to the beach I don't want to see nudity."

He said modest bathing gear or separate beaches for men and women are possible alternatives to the current situation.

Khafagy stressed that tourists would be free to do as they please in specially designated areas, adding that his party supported tourism to the country. But that did not satisfy the heads of Egypt's tourism industry, who met with the party’s secretary-general Al-Katatny for a heated debate on Monday.

"Without alcohol and bathing suits, no tourists will come and we will lose $13 billion a year," Hussam A-Shaer, head of the tourist company association, told Al-Masry al-Youm.

But bathing suits are not the only worry of Egypt’s Islamists. Abd Al-Munim A-Shahhat, a spokesman for the Salafi group Dawa, has said that Egypt's world-renowned pharaonic archeology – its pyramids, Sphinx and other monuments covered with un-Islamic imagery – should also be hidden from the public eye.

"The pharaonic culture is a rotten culture," A-Shahhat told the London-based Arab daily A-Sharq Al-Awsat on Wednesday, saying the faces of ancient statues "should be covered with wax, since they are religiously forbidden." He likened the Egyptian relics to the idols which circled the walls of Mecca in pre-Islamic times.

The Islamist challenges to the tourism industry in post-revolutionary Egypt have led to the establishment of the Coalition to Support Tourism, whose members also met with Al-Katatny on Monday. The coalition, which includes a broad array of travel industry organizations and figures, argued that the real problem isn’t modesty but the absence of any strategy on the part of Egypt's new parties to protect the country's faltering tourism industry.

"Some parties want to ban tourism, or allow it while banning alcohol, certain foods and certain clothes. [A couple] renting a room will require documents proving they are married," wrote the coalition administrator on the group's Facebook page. "These proposals don’t bode well, as many of you know."

Henry of the American University said two classes of beaches already exist in Egypt, with modestly dressed, generally poor Egyptians occupying some and foreign tourists occupying others, mostly in the resorts of the Sinai Peninsula. He said he considered imposition of sharia law in Egypt "an act of aggression" that he would not tolerate.

Islamists have never been enamored of foreign tourism and before they were crushed by the Mubarak regime foreign visitors were often targeted for killings. Close to 60 Western tourists were killed by Islamist terrorists in the southern city of Luxor in 1997. Tourists were also attacked in bombings in the Sinai resorts of Taba, Sharm Al-Sheikh and Dahab in 2004, 2005 and 2006.

But Al-Katatny said that the Muslim Brotherhood regards Egypt's archeology as belonging to all of humanity, and should therefore be safeguarded.

"This heritage belongs to everyone, and one can't simply remove something he doesn't like," he told Al-Ahram daily.

[Mohoender]

I would like to have a cross reference on this. As the source orginates from Israel, it is far from being reliable. I'm not convinced that what's hapening in North Africa threatens US in anyway but I'm sure it does Israel and I'm convinced that Tel Aviv is not happy to face the eventuality to have muslim democratic government around it, especially if such government is located in the most powerful muslim country (outside Pakistan): Egypt.

[natehale1971]

There are alot of articles coming out of Egypt, especially about how Christians are being attacked, raped and killed. Churches being burnt... ect. It's happening, and getting reported. just being under-reported when it's something that has people inside and outside of Eygpt worried.