OT - Khadaffy's regime falling

[Mohoender]

I know that the Libyans still have a long way to go, that the revolution is not over yet and that much uncertainty remain for the immediate future but things are now looking much better. I wish them the best and hope they will be able to build a great peace and a nice country.

Anyway, they have put an impressive fight and already achieved a lot and I believe the Libyan people deserve some congratulations.

[natehale1971]

yes they do...

in the work i'm doing for my T2k campaign, the Libyans had gotten rid of 'Khadaffy' during the mid-90s and established the Libyan Republic and joined the French dominated Med Alliance. namely due to the fact that the French and Italians are the ones who helped them establish a post-Khadaffy society (and seeing as that real life will have France and Italy taking a major role post revolution, it makes me wonder if it will happen IRL as well).

But I'm still hoping that the Libyan Royal family will be brought back as a constintitutional monarchy IRL. from what i've read, they'd be pushing for a more secular government isntead of the Shiraia Law based government that we're hearing about being created at the moment.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

But I'm still hoping that the Libyan Royal family will be brought back as a constintitutional monarchy IRL. from what i've read, they'd be pushing for a more secular government isntead of the Shiraia Law based government that we're hearing about being created at the moment.

From what I have learned yesterday such a shiraia governement is far from being a reality. A constitutional monarchy seems equally to be out of question. A secular government is the most plausible solution and would be a good news as each successful revolution in the Muslim World is one further blow on Islamic extremism and terrorrism.

Still uncertainty remains. Khadaffy has not been found and one of his son (which had been claimed to be prisoner) is still free. Moreover, the rebels will have to build everything from scratch and that too will be very interesting.

[natehale1971]

I hope you are right Mo... but according to Part 1, Article 1 of the alleged draft: “Islam is the Religion of the State, and the principal source of legislation is Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia).”

http://www.scribd.com/doc/62823350/L...sitional-Stage

This has me worried.. along with some of the things that have been coming out of Egypt that aren't being reported here in the US, but are being reported overseas (Christians and other non-Muslims being assaulted & killed, their houses of worship being burned down, ect). The fact that the Muslim Brotherhood is taking a much more active role in the government in Egypt has been something we need to investgiate...

Hell, the fact foreign press has been reporting that some of the leaders of the Libyan resitance against Khadaffy are assosicated with all-Qeada has me worried as well... but I am waiting for more information before i make any final judgements. But i am cautiously optimistic.

[Mohoender]

I hope your worries to be wrong but they are justified and I share your caution.

I'm not forgetting that these are revolutions and that revolutions are never achieved in a day.

[natehale1971]

Believe me... i really want to see the spread of western-style of democratic republician forms of government all around the world... pure democracy not so much. a tyranny of the majority is still a tyranny, and has been what sparks crimes against humanity in the vein of ethnic cleansing more often than not.

I was raised with 'Prepare for the Worse and Hope for the Best" type of mindset. And that's what I am doing... To many times we've seen the Arab Spring turning into something less than what we hoped it to be (hell, the NIGHT they were celebrating in the streets of Egypt... the crowd was gang raping a female journalist when the spotlights on the cameraman's camera had burned out).

And now with the growing number of attacks that are being made on religious minorities (rapes, murders, arsons, ect) and the creation of National Socialist Parties in several of the "Arab Spring" countries has been frightening. And now that Foreign press are reporting that al-Qeada associates are in high ranking positions of the Libyan Revolutionary Governing Council....

I'm cautiously optiomitistic... but worried none the less.

[95th Rifleman]

I've always said these things should be left to the people.

If a people hate their government so much they will themselves rise. Western involvement was limited to air support and aid so the new government will see us as genuine allies rather than an army of conquest like the Iraqis did.

[natehale1971]

yup...

and we don't have the baggage of telling the Iraqi people in 1991 "if you rise up, we will come in and liberate you" and when they did that... we just stood by and watched as they were butchered. THAT was the biggest reason we had problems in Iraq after Saddam's forces folded. One of my friends who was Psychological Ops and Civil Affairs who worked with the Iraqi civilians said that was the biggest reason the Iraqi people were not willing to take chances with us...

[kcdusk]

Just seen some footage on the tv. Interviews with "rebels". But the scene that caught my eye was an old man, he had big bullet-linked chain, maybe 10 or 12 round belts that were empty. He was putting large caliber rounds (25mm or 30mm is my guess) into the chain link. One bullet at a time he put a round in a link, then with a wooden mallet hammered it once to force the round into the link, then he put the second round in & hammered it ....

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

Just seen some footage on the tv. Interviews with "rebels". But the scene that caught my eye was an old man, he had big bullet-linked chain, maybe 10 or 12 round belts that were empty. He was putting large caliber rounds (25mm or 30mm is my guess) into the chain link. One bullet at a time he put a round in a link, then with a wooden mallet hammered it once to force the round into the link, then he put the second round in & hammered it ....

In Libya, armourer is less a career, more an extreme sport.

[LBraden]

That sounds ALMOST as bad as some of the "fresh out of Sandhurst" Lieutenants that my father has seen.

However, when needs must, ya gotta do the job, I have to say, for a bunch of people with guns, they have succeeded very well.

[mikeo80]

The biggest thing I see happening is Kaddafi doing a scorched earth as he goes out. Like the Russians did pulling back from Hitler and Napoleon. I feel sure that MK has enough loyalists still that he could order a suicide attack on the oil facilities of Libya.

My $0.02

Mike

[waiting4something]

This is sad news. I was pulling for Khadaffy. I don't know why we had to stick our big nose in other people's business. Well yeah, I'm sure the oil there was big part of that. Who know's what will happen after this. One thing is for sure, this will not help the U.S.A., just a few high rollers within.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

One thing is for sure, this will not help the U.S.A., just a few high rollers within.

It is amusing that you might think the potential development of democracy could not help the USA.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

It is amusing that you might think the potential development of democracy could not help the USA.

I don't believe it will help the U.S.A. out at all. It will just be another rival economically in the long run. It's kind of like when China started loosing the old communist ideas and became more western like. Good for them, bad for us. The best part is we do it to ourselves. Look at NAFTA that was really to destroy the strengh of American export and lift up foreign imports. America's ugliness of trying to make everyone like we are (or once where) is a self-destructive handout.
Now with what the new government does or is like over there we will have to see. But in no way was blowing up Khadaffy's regime a smart move unless your one of the guys looking to set up business there.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I don't believe it will help the U.S.A. out at all. It will just be another rival economically in the long run. It's kind of like when China started loosing the old communist ideas and became more western like. Good for them, bad for us. The best part is we do it to ourselves. Look at NAFTA that was really to destroy the strengh of American export and lift up foreign imports. America's ugliness of trying to make everyone like we are (or once where) is a self-destructive handout.
Now with what the new government does or is like over there we will have to see. But in no way was blowing up Khadaffy's regime a smart move unless your one of the guys looking to set up business there.

Say what? The USA has been the world's greatest proponent of free trade and the global economy. How do you think the US got to be so prosperous? But now that the US is the richest nation in the world you think it's a bad idea for other nations to become prosperous too because they will be competitors to the US? And its not like a tiny population base like Libya is ever going to be a serious economic rival to America.

The US (not to mention the rest of the world) needs oil doesn't it? You don't think it would be good for the US if Libya had a democratic government willing to sell its oil to western countries such as the US?

What about Africa (and particularly North Africa) being a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism? Isn't the US locked in a world wide war against terrorism (much of it perpetrated by Islamic extremists)? Therefore, would it not be in America's best interests for more African nations to become strong, western-style democracies? I think it is way too early to assume that the new Libya is going to turn into a fundamentalist Islamic state. I think that outcome will be more likely if the US and the western world turns its back on Libya's new government.

Or am I just rising to the bait here and you are looking for this sort of reaction to your comments?

[Webstral]

There is a mood of pessimism in the US these days that Waiting is giving a voice. Unfortunately, as a people we Americans tend towards very black-and-white viewpoints. We struggle with nuance. In the 1960's, the Soviets were the Devil incarnate and bent on our destruction. Back in the 1980's, the world was coming to an end because Japan was about to eclipse us. Now it's China. We like extreme interpretations for the same reason that we love our fiery sermons: they get the blood pumping.

The idea that a country with a population the size of Massachusetts is going to somehow outcompete the United States is a bit alarmist, to say the least. We might as well say that the US has suffered from the recovery of the Netherlands after WW2. After all, the Netherlands has larger population, a better-educated population, and a more-established industrial base.

Of course, there is the possibility that a new Libya would want to take over for the Cayman Islands as a tax haven. That problem, though, is an internal problem for the US. Reform of the IRS is what's needed to deal with the Cayman Islands, not a totalitarian regime in the Cayman Islands.

The real danger, as always, is that a nation with a distinctly non-Western culture will learn to combine Western economic, industrial, and scientific tools with its own culture and produce something that causes us to question our assumptions about how things go. Oh, yes--that's been happening, hasn't it? It just hasn't happend with a Muslim country yet--not really. The Persian Gulf States have plenty of oil wealth and all the trappings of Western society, but representative government has eluded them thus far. One never knows, though. What if a Westernized Muslim state emerged that learned to make peace between Islam and modernism? This is not hard to imagine when one converses with moderate Muslims or reads their work. A moderate Muslim regime with oil wealth is exactly who we need on our side and exactly what we fear because we don't have ready-made answers for dealing with them. I hope Libya manages to make something better of itself than just another state that kicked out the old bums only to fall under the control of a crowd of new bums.

[95th Rifleman]

The "Arab spring" had me laughing so loud I fell off my chair. We selectively pick and choose democracies and dictatorships.

Look at Saddam, when he was happily gassing Iranians he Americans backed him up and kept the UN from sticking their nose in. Forward 20 years and he's suddenly the next Hitler.

Gaddafi goes postal on his own people and the RAF and French Air Force go riding to te rescue. That Syrian nutjob does the same thing and all we do is wag our fingers and express our displeasure.

Egypt was a big ally of America under their dictatorship, now they have gotten rid of the guy they are kicking off with Israel again.

The people of Bahrain rise up, the Saudis next door send their tanks in and put them down. Now we have doctors who helped the protestors up on jumped up charges while the west looks the other way.

I am sick and bloody tired of western politicians talking about human rights, they don't give a damn about human rights.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

The "Arab spring" had me laughing so loud I fell off my chair. We selectively pick and choose democracies and dictatorships.

Look at Saddam, when he was happily gassing Iranians he Americans backed him up and kept the UN from sticking their nose in. Forward 20 years and he's suddenly the next Hitler.

Gaddafi goes postal on his own people and the RAF and French Air Force go riding to te rescue. That Syrian nutjob does the same thing and all we do is wag our fingers and express our displeasure.

Egypt was a big ally of America under their dictatorship, now they have gotten rid of the guy they are kicking off with Israel again.

The people of Bahrain rise up, the Saudis next door send their tanks in and put them down. Now we have doctors who helped the protestors up on jumped up charges while the west looks the other way.

I am sick and bloody tired of western politicians talking about human rights, they don't give a damn about human rights.

This seems to be the case, we only care about shit if it can make us money. It's laughable. It reminds me of the holiday season, you know the one time a year it's popular and fun to give a damn about the needy. This has nothing to do with helping the poor oppressed people. You want to go help people look within your on borders before you go on military adventure in a foreign country. Oh yeah, but there no money in that....... what's the point.

[headquarters]

Well, they have enjoyed a relatively better standard of living and education in Libya than the average in North Africa the last decades - so hopefully the people there will see the value of a moderate stance and try to come into the democratic fold so to speak. ( Its all up in the air now though).

As for the slight pessimistic subcurrent I detect in some posters here - yes you are right. On the other hand no one action in war led by democratic nations had a sole purpose. There have always been those in it for the money, those that want to make aname for themselves and those who have idealistic motives- the list goes on of course. I for one supported the bombing campaign as Gaddafi moved on Benghazi - as I supported the popular uprisings in the middle east in general. What a great opportunity for the world to improve relations if several major nations in the middle east actually become secular, functioning democracies.

Hope lives on guys.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Webstral

The real danger, as always, is that a nation with a distinctly non-Western culture will learn to combine Western economic, industrial, and scientific tools with its own culture and produce something that causes us to question our assumptions about how things go. Oh, yes--that's been happening, hasn't it? It just hasn't happend with a Muslim country yet--not really. The Persian Gulf States have plenty of oil wealth and all the trappings of Western society, but representative government has eluded them thus far. One never knows, though. What if a Westernized Muslim state emerged that learned to make peace between Islam and modernism? This is not hard to imagine when one converses with moderate Muslims or reads their work.

I personally think that in almost all cases when Islam is dominate in a nation it stifles innovation. That is going to hold those nations back and I am not sure that the works of moderate Muslims can undo what seems to me to be a deep cultural resistance to moving forward.

If you look at US Patents by country
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/...af/cst_utl.htm
you will see that most European and Asian countries (including Denmark and Singapore) have had more patents granted than all Muslim nations combined. Even Lichtenstein (with a GDP about 1.5% as large) holds it own with Saudi Arabia .

Some might say that hostility to the US is suppressing these numbers, but even longtime ally Turkey's comes very close to the bottom of the list as far as European democracies go. Generally it is out shined by the former Eastern Bloc countries who have a shorter history of both democracy and capitalism. In trying to see if there might be geographical (as opposed to cultural) reasons for such low numbers, I saw that neighbor Greece has more than double the patents granted as Turkey, with about 1/6th of the population.

Perhaps one day Islam will again become more supportive of an innovative process, but at the moment it looks like they have a long way to go.


Edit:
Added "again" to the last sentence to reflect that Islamic culture was once the one of the greatest motivators for innovation.

[headquarters]

Turkey is a secular country btw.

As far as I know there are some 10 million moslem citizens in the US - it doesnt seem that they are slowing the US down.

Any religion that gets the upper hand in the running of a country will stifle other processes in that country - not just Islam.

Historically speaking the Moslem world - particularily the Ottoman Empire - has had a longer run as an advanced and innovative society than the modern western world. ( Yeah - I know that was before the advent of modern westernized democracy and industrial capitalism).
Anyhow - Libya has a relatively small population and substantial oil reserves. It is possible that they might try to institute a system of representative rule and fair distribution of the nations wealth. Given the vast arsenal in the hands of the people thereit would seem suicidal not to try and get everyone aboard..than again - there are always those hardliner faithful of both Allah and Muammar Gaddafi that will not tolerate a western style democray. ( Muammar Gaddafi was not an Islamist btw - he actually supressed radical Islam harshly in years before.)

[kato13]

I know Turkey is "Secular" but it is 99.8% Muslim.

I fully understand the importance of Islams historical push for advancement of technology. Islam saved an incredible amount of information and was responsible for most of technological innovation that occurred during Europe's dark ages. What I am speaking of is my perception of stagnation now.

I know many can consider the patent argument flawed (for socio economic reasons), but the numbers are so jarring in comparison that I do see it as being indicative of a stagnation.

Do I know Muslims who are incredibly innovative, yes absolutely. For the most part that is why they or their parents came to America, and America is better off for having them. That could be another factor is the Patent disparity is that those who might be motivated to innovate or change things either leave or are chased out. I do not judge an individual by any single trait, but I do accept that perhaps a dominant culture can effect how a population may be motivated and what they, as a population, ultimately might accomplish.

Edit:
An hour later that "Muslims aren't slowing down America" line is still bugging me.

I presented facts and my opinion about the effects of a dominant culture and it is assumed that I feel every extended member of that culture (even outside the realm of dominance) is somehow a drain. That was a real stretch in my opinion.

To say that German culture strives for more engineering innovation than lets say the Polynesians, is in my mind is the truth. Yes I am taking two cultures and ranking them on a particular factor. Do I feel the greatest engineer the world has ever seen could come out of Polynesia, yes, but the German system is much more likely to recognize and develop talents so in general they will produce more engineers. The best of anything can come from any culture, but the averages will be different depending on what is the focus of the culture.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Turkey is a secular country btw.

Not anymore. It's only in name now. Things have changed a great deal over the last couple of years and it's getting worse.

Ataturk would be rolling in his grave if he knew. Turkey is lost.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Targan

Say what? The USA has been the world's greatest proponent of free trade and the global economy. How do you think the US got to be so prosperous? But now that the US is the richest nation in the world you think it's a bad idea for other nations to become prosperous too because they will be competitors to the US? And its not like a tiny population base like Libya is ever going to be a serious economic rival to America.

The US (not to mention the rest of the world) needs oil doesn't it? You don't think it would be good for the US if Libya had a democratic government willing to sell its oil to western countries such as the US?

What about Africa (and particularly North Africa) being a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism? Isn't the US locked in a world wide war against terrorism (much of it perpetrated by Islamic extremists)? Therefore, would it not be in America's best interests for more African nations to become strong, western-style democracies? I think it is way too early to assume that the new Libya is going to turn into a fundamentalist Islamic state. I think that outcome will be more likely if the US and the western world turns its back on Libya's new government.

Or am I just rising to the bait here and you are looking for this sort of reaction to your comments?

Baiting? Why would I do that. Unless you mean masterbaiting....hahahahahaha.
To answer you questions I guess here goes. The U.S.A. used to be this big winner in trading with foriegn countries, but that time is over. Now days we like to let other countries sell us cheap goods thanks to free trade and also like to give tax breaks to American employers that move there companies over seas where they can get cheaper labor and dodge things like EPA regulations. It's win win for foreign countries and the few big cat sell out Americans. It's lose lose for America and the American people. American the richest country in the world? I seriously doubt that now days. We might have some of the richest people, but the country as a whole is not that rich. Oprah maybe every woman, but that doesn't mean every american woman has her money. Hollywood isn't America.

[waiting4something]

Oh yes I forgot your second part about America and there global war on terror. The war on terror is either a big lie or a really bad not well thought out idea. It's seems more like a excuse to get a foot in the door of foreign countries that may not welcome certain corpations coming their and exploiting there resources. It also about control. "We are doing this for your own safety" "That's why you have to give up your civil liberties so we can make it safe for you". If we really wanted to fight bad guys we would fight North Korea or Iran. But, they might put up too great of a fight and nobody on ourside will profit if fight doesn't end in us being able to put in a puppet. Hell, North Korea is like mobsters extorting food instead of money from us. If we don't give them aid they will do bad shit. So we we give them aid. Yet we fight libya, Iraq which already got a beat down a decade before, and Afganistan? Afganistan? Most the 911 hijackers where from Saudi Arabia.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

If we really wanted to fight bad guys we would fight North Korea or Iran. But, they might put up too great of a fight and nobody on ourside will profit if fight doesn't end in us being able to put in a puppet. Hell, North Korea is like mobsters extorting food instead of money from us. If we don't give them aid they will do bad shit.

I find your lack of loyalty to the dear leader disturbing.

Don't you know that the dear leader...
...invented the hamburger?
...scored 11 holes in one on his first ever game of golf?
...wrote six operas in two years and also found time to design the Juche tower in Pyongyang?

[headquarters]

I didnt mean to come across as seeing you as a bigot.

I do disagree on the analyzis of the facts you present though. Many factors should be examined such as economic development and resources etc.

As for a country being secular - I meant that they have a governing system based on political opinion rather than religious faith. The US is a secular country - yet there are a great many US citizens who have religious faith.

Also I would like to point out that Islam is a religion and not a culture. Moslems are as diverse as most other people that adhere to other world religions - spanning from Indonesia to Norway.

As for percieved stagnation in moslem countries today - I agree that the center of development is not in those countries today.

Originally Posted by kato13

I know Turkey is "Secular" but it is 99.8% Muslim.

I fully understand the importance of Islams historical push for advancement of technology. Islam saved an incredible amount of information and was responsible for most of technological innovation that occurred during Europe's dark ages. What I am speaking of is my perception of stagnation now.

I know many can consider the patent argument flawed (for socio economic reasons), but the numbers are so jarring in comparison that I do see it as being indicative of a stagnation.

Do I know Muslims who are incredibly innovative, yes absolutely. For the most part that is why they or their parents came to America, and America is better off for having them. That could be another factor is the Patent disparity is that those who might be motivated to innovate or change things either leave or are chased out. I do not judge an individual by any single trait, but I do accept that perhaps a dominant culture can effect how a population may be motivated and what they, as a population, ultimately might accomplish.

Edit:
An hour later that "Muslims aren't slowing down America" line is still bugging me.

I presented facts and my opinion about the effects of a dominant culture and it is assumed that I feel every extended member of that culture (even outside the realm of dominance) is somehow a drain. That was a real stretch in my opinion.

To say that German culture strives for more engineering innovation than lets say the Polynesians, is in my mind is the truth. Yes I am taking two cultures and ranking them on a particular factor. Do I feel the greatest engineer the world has ever seen could come out of Polynesia, yes, but the German system is much more likely to recognize and develop talents so in general they will produce more engineers. The best of anything can come from any culture, but the averages will be different depending on what is the focus of the culture.

[kato13]

North Korea is near the bottom of the Patent List (Obviously) but they do have 2 US patents. I will check the patent search databases later to see if I can find them, but I will be very disappointed if the hamburger is not one listed

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by kato13

North Korea is near the bottom of the Patent List (Obviously) but they do have 2 US patents. I will check the patent search databases later to see if I can find them, but I will be very disappointed if the hamburger is not one listed

Joking aside, I would actually be very interested to know what the patents are.