Aircraft In 2000

[Top-Break]

Just wondering if there are any thoughts on the number and availability of aircraft in T2K.

My guess is that between combat losses, lack of fuel, spare parts, and the effects of EMP, most combatants are lucky to have even a handful of operational aircraft.

Those that are left are probably held as part of a strategic reserve.

I would expect most combatants to have at least a handful of fast movers (F-16s, F-15s, F/A-18s, Tornados, MiGs and Sukhois, ETC) tasked with front-line reconnaissance due to the loss of sattelite capability.

There's also a possibility that most major combatants have a few heavy-lifters still operational. All those civilian airliners and cargo planes that no longer have any supplies of fuel might come in handy.

Any thoughts or comments?

[95th Rifleman]

Those old WW2 museums will be emptied. in the UK, Duxford has several air-worthy aircraft that are old enough to be immune to the effects of EMP. They would make excelelnt COIN aircraft for dealing with UK-based marauders.

[natehale1971]

I had an electonics tech tell me this once... If you knew the EMP was on it's way, there is a way to prepare yourself for it. Namely detaching the power leads to the electrical system and turning the thing on so that all of the 'juice' has been drawn out of the electical device. once that's done, switch it off position.

He told me that if you pull all the batteries out of your equipment (CD/tape players, boomboxes, laptops) or pulled the power plugs out of electonics, or detached the electrical systems.. the EMP can pass without getting blown. This came from the A-bomb tests... that inert electonics were not effected, only those with a 'vampire' surge or fully turned on was blown out.

And looking back, it makes sense of One of the things on the Ike (USS Dwight D. Eisenhower, CVN69... horah! that magic number) that all of us were trained to do by the shakedown teams Gitmo, and that was to pull batteries out of all our electonics when we weren't using them.

IF the military had spareparts on the shelves, yes it would be time consuming (and rely heavily on the stockpiles)... but you'd still be able to get through them.

Did anyone else get training to pull batteries out of electronics when they were not in use? It took my friends and family nearly 6 years to break me of that particular habit, right after i had done it to the TV Remote.

[Webstral]

The RDF Sourcebook, which covers the Persian Gulf region, gives an idea of what the authors thought might be possible in an area with enough oil left for military and possibly industrial purposes. How often the aircraft fly is rather another matter. I've been told that modern combat aircraft burn through parts the way an alcoholic burns through a liquor cabinet. My reading on the subject generally supports this idea, although the alcoholic bit might be an hyperbole.

Parts for older aircraft may be easier to fabricate than parts for modern aircraft, but there won't be any assembly lines for P-51 parts. I don't know enough about supporting aircraft like the ones in the Confederate Air Force[1] to make a realistic assessment of how hard it would be for a major cantonment like Colorado to support obsolete aircraft. I don't know how many would be available, even to a major cantonment.


1 For those not familiar with the Confederate Air Force, a brief overview is provided here: http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/b17/con...eairforce.html

[Raellus]

A Marine helicopter (CH-53) aircrewman told me at an airshow that it takes about 50 man-hours of maintainence for every 1 hour of flight time to operate a CH-53.

I just don't see many operational aircraft in most parts of the world c. 2000. Aside from a few isolated regions, fuel availability would be a significant hindrance to air ops. Modern manufacturing is an oxymoron in 2000, and spares would come only from cannibalizing other aircraft.

Look at the airforce of nearly any failed state- you might see a couple old turboprop transports and one or two jet fighter bombers still operational out of an original force of dozens or hundreds of both types. No spares and/or poor maintainance means an imminent end to air ops.

And then there's the early years of the war. I think that the modern battlespace- especially over Europe during the height of the Cold War- would be extremely hazzardous to most aircraft types. Attrition rates would be really high while production, even before the exchange, would be fairly low. It takes a lot longer to build an F-16 than it did to build a P-51. With only a couple of years for the major combatants to gear up for total war, there wouldn't be nearly enough replacements to fill the gaps left by the casualties. Once the exchange begins, aircraft manufacture would come to an abrupt end.

This means that by 2000, the surviving airfleets would have been operating for about 3 years with no replacement aircraft, few new spares, dwindling supplies of cannibalized spares, a trickle of jet fuel, and probably only the bare minimum of maintainance.

[Webstral]

I agree with your assessment, Rae. Even Milgov would struggle to keep a couple of C-130s in the air, useful as the ability to airlift critical personnel might be. I'll resist the temptation to use this as an opportunity to repeat everything I've written about airships and the saving grace PCs can deliver to Milgov as a result of developments in Airlords of the Ozarks.

[Targan]

Welcome to the boards, Top-Break. There are a couple of threads regarding aircraft and airships in T2K listed in the Thread Map (which itself is a sticky thread near the top of the list). Take a look in the segment of the thread map Equipment; Aircraft/Naval http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=773#equip_an . There is also the Aircraft Rules thread http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=220 . I'm sure there have been other discussions a while back on aircraft that aren't listed in the Thread Map, too. Also, there have been extensive discussions in the past about EMP. One from the Thread Map: Vehicles and EMPs http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=267 .

[headquarters]

about aircraft inT2K

Different schools I guess - most agree that there will be a lot of limitations on airpower in the setting - parts, specialized manpower, fuel and ordinance stockpiles all limit the scope of air war in T2K.

But some take another view - any airpower - be it simply an obsolete ,piston engine or ultralight observation plane that allow you to observe and thus control an area would give any military organization a huge advantage over a ground locked adversary.

n my humble opinion there would be an end to modern air war as we know it with advanced jets and cargo haulers with great ranges. ( On some levels these capacities would be retained - but only high or highest up in the command chain - I think)

But T2K sets up the scenario where local or regional warfare erupt all the time all over the globe. Some players are remnants of national states or provinces with a relatively advanced industrial capacity - some or mere city-state type entities with more limited resources- but the one thing most have access to is the biggest challenge in overcoming gravity - sufficient theoretical knowledge. In my view - be it ever so askew - any T2K society would be geard towards war and/or defense. A spotter plane could be built by a fairly small community - given that they have access to a few prerequisted resources - such as available food and manpower to spare as well as plans, scrounged parts etc.

If one city state put together a spotter plane or refurbish a crop duster to strafe ground troops - well given the prerequisits- it wouldnt take long until the enemy across the county did the same or made a fighter to take it down.

Low key- low tech aerial warfare would be back as what I am getting at. Access to existing parts to scrounge or refurbish might be absolutely necessary in some cases - but building an ultralight type diy project aircraft is going on in garages across the industrialized world in numbers as we speak


Here is a link to our aircraft docs - if you can use any of them in your game we would be honoured.

http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/Aircraft/

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

With only a couple of years for the major combatants to gear up for total war, there wouldn't be nearly enough replacements to fill the gaps left by the casualties.

Besides that which was necessary for prosecution of the war in China, the Pact had very little "gearing up". Besides the minimal amount of preparation over a very short space of time by Germany, NOBODY in the west was even thinking about war, let alone preparing for it.
This from both 2.0 & 2.2:

From the very beginning, this is a "come as you are" war; neither side is adequately prepared. The German Army has just finished a period of very rapid growth and rebuilding, many of its units being equipped with tanks and vehicles which have sat idle in warehouses for four or five years. The Poles and Soviets are at the end of several years of very limited military spending capped by a war in the east which has drawn off much of their best equipment already.

V1.0 could well be different given we know next to nothing prior to 1995 from canon sources. My guess is the cold war just rolled on and there wasn't the drawing down of forces seen in the early 90's IRL and in 2.x.

Even so, the west had little reason to see war in Europe coming so why would they prepare for it? Sure they may well be supplying China, however it's very unlikely anyone would be providing China with the best they have available for fear of the Pact getting their hands on it and reverse engineering.
In V1.0 EVERYONE was kept in the dark about the coming reunification of Germany, except those handful of people actually involved in the talks.
In 2.x we see Germany activating reservists in 1995, but that alone does not justify production of new equipment and canon specifically states in the quote above where the vehicles, etc are coming from. It's not until June 1996 that secret talks are commenced with German ethnic organisations within Poland, and the rest of the world sees nothing more than posturing and minor border clashes until the 27th of July 1996 to indicate war is coming.

Note border friction is a daily event world wide. Some borders are obviously a lot quieter than others, but some are downright deadly (take Korea as an example). The world doesn't mobilise and ramp up production based on friction.

Getting back to the topic of aircraft, I read a short story years ago (can't remember the author or more than general details) about a future where corporate wars were the only way to settle disputes, takeovers, etc. Technology was restricted to pre 1900 (I think) with black powder weapons predominant, no vehicles, and certainly no aircraft. Often the "war" would be won without a shot being fired as the larger company could afford to amass a larger mercenary army and essentially guarantee victory.
Our hero chose to join the smaller side, promising victory to the board of directors by use of an undisclosed advantage in return for a massive reward when he delivered.
His plan? Using something like a hang glider (the first one in history flew just before the tech cut off date - a fact only a handful of people knew) as an observation and command and control post. It would allow his side to spot the enemy much sooner and manoeuvre to greater effect, thereby negating the enemy's greater numbers.

This short story highlights the impact effective reconnaissance and superior intelligence has in war. Air power of any sort greatly aids in the rapid and efficient gathering of battlefield information and so any commander worth his rank will move heaven and earth to maintain even one prop driven light plane if they possibly can. Even a hot air balloon is better than nothing (although you wouldn't catch me volunteering for that duty as a slow moving aerial target!!!).

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Well, once wrested from the Mexican/Cuban forces, Davis Monthan AFB is going to be a treasure trove for a rebuilt USAF - acres of A1 Skyraiders and other prop a/c, for example, to cobble together working ships out of. Of course matters like fuel are a different issue altogether.

[Mohoender]

Is there a way to find out what types of aircrafts were there between 1990-1995? Looking at google map today, I still saw plenty of F4, 1 F100 and a couple F111...

I don't care if they are/were in flying order or not, we already discussed that but the scenario of a Franco-Belgian comic going by the title of "Dawn Patrol" (Buck Danny by Charlier & Hubinon) would perfectly fit in.

In the original scenario the heroes (3 USN pilots) are kidnapped by a former nazi sub-commander to locate a lost submarines. The action takes place in the early 1950's with the USN pilots operating from V45 "Valley Forge" and flying F9 Panther. They are brought to a Pacific island where dozens of US aircraft had been left over since WW2. They find a TBF Avenger and put it back in flying conditions using spare parts from other left over aircrafts.

I could perfectly imagine to have an inspired playing scenario taking place at Davis Monthan AFB with PCs looking for aircrafts to achieve a given mission.

This had been the first comic book I read back in 1977-1978. Wander why I hang up around this forum? I guess, I'll be careful to what comic book I'll be giving my daughters.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Well, once wrested from the Mexican/Cuban forces, Davis Monthan AFB is going to be a treasure trove for a rebuilt USAF - acres of A1 Skyraiders and other prop a/c, for example, to cobble together working ships out of. Of course matters like fuel are a different issue altogether.

That's a big maybe, IMHO. Those planes would need a lot of maintainance to become airworthy again. It's not like dusting off the Red Barchetta in the garage and firing it up for a Sunday drive. Parts may or may not be an issue (seems like a perfect scenario for cannibalization but I'm pretty sure that most electrical components are removed from the airframe before storage) but finding skilled aircraft mechanics probably would be. It also assumes that the Mexican military hasn't done anything with the aircraft either. They could have tried to resurrect some of them and/or they could have trashed them.

[pmulcahy11b]

When I was a GM, I played fast and loose with aircraft availability, but in "real" t2K, you may have some ultralights, gyrocopters, things like the occasional Piper Cub or Pilatus PC-6, and very rarely, more modern aircraft like the larger helicopters or perhaps some light jet aircraft or heavier prop-driven aircraft. They would not be as common as in my GM universe I had when I was GMing.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

When I was a GM, I played fast and loose with aircraft availability, but in "real" t2K, you may have some ultralights, gyrocopters, things like the occasional Piper Cub or Pilatus PC-6, and very rarely, more modern aircraft like the larger helicopters or perhaps some light jet aircraft or heavier prop-driven aircraft. They would not be as common as in my GM universe I had when I was GMing.

we tried our hand at it - it is quite fun but rules need to be tweaked somewhat to get meaningful duels in the sky.

In our game the players started out re-developing old WWI aircraft using whatever parts and materials could be made or scrounged. This led to a niece little air war that rapidly escalated into more WWII -ish stuff as General Pain reinvented the "Not-Jager Programme" - the emergency fighter program with jets etc .

They still have a few aircraft left ( how are the mighty fallen) of various types..

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Oh, I should mention "my" view of Orlando in T2k has the local MilGov cantonment forces with a couple of flyable helos. Loooots of avgas around the area, not a bunch of qualified pilots or flyable a/c. Some folks from Embry-Riddle made it to Orlando and helped the local authorities get two flying.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Oh, I should mention "my" view of Orlando in T2k has the local MilGov cantonment forces with a couple of flyable helos.

Write us something. We've been a little dry lately.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Raellus

That's a big maybe, IMHO. Those planes would need a lot of maintainance to become airworthy again. It's not like dusting off the Red Barchetta in the garage and firing it up for a Sunday drive. Parts may or may not be an issue (seems like a perfect scenario for cannibalization but I'm pretty sure that most electrical components are removed from the airframe before storage) but finding skilled aircraft mechanics probably would be. It also assumes that the Mexican military hasn't done anything with the aircraft either. They could have tried to resurrect some of them and/or they could have trashed them.

Assuming they didn't trash them, if they get any more than a few flying they'd crush the already crippled US forces once and for all. Total air supremacy courtesy of a couple of flights of Skyraiders or AC47s pretty much dooms the US.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Write us something. We've been a little dry lately.

I never did finish my "Handout for departing troops" did I? I'll get crackin'.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Total air supremacy courtesy of a couple of flights of Skyraiders or AC47s pretty much dooms the US.

That's a bit extreme, although no doubt C.L. Chennault would agree with you wholeheartedly. Assuming that "a couple of flights" adds up to four or so aircraft, each of which generates a sortie a day over the long haul (this is Twilight: 2000), then this amounts to four opportunities to attack US troops with one aircraft once per day. This does not amount to a Mexican ability to overrun and occupy the continental United States or anything remotely like it. A handful of CAS aircraft certainly would be powerful force multipliers for the Mexicans. However, I don't think even a zealous zoomie would say that a small package of even the legendary A-1 would completely upset the balance of power across 1500+ miles of what passes for front from 1998-2001.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Webstral

That's a bit extreme, although no doubt C.L. Chennault would agree with you wholeheartedly. Assuming that "a couple of flights" adds up to four or so aircraft, each of which generates a sortie a day over the long haul (this is Twilight: 2000), then this amounts to four opportunities to attack US troops with one aircraft once per day. This does not amount to a Mexican ability to overrun and occupy the continental United States or anything remotely like it. A handful of CAS aircraft certainly would be powerful force multipliers for the Mexicans. However, I don't think even a zealous zoomie would say that a small package of even the legendary A-1 would completely upset the balance of power across 1500+ miles of what passes for front from 1998-2001.

There certainly wouldnt be any significant results in the short run - no blitz tactic could be employes due to only 4-5 CAS prop a/c. But in the longer run, being able to strike with semi impunity the war would turn against the US loyalists still holding out. ( In this specific scenario - bear in mind - forces are mostly scattered about with few concentrated forces). Taking out smaller posts /units one at the time will as the seasons pass lead to posts being evacuated as attack draws nigh. Standing your ground is not an option to most when it will lead to a no-gains sacrifice.

all in my humble opinion. As for airwar - making AA weapons has always been the traditional countertactic against air superiority. Any thoughts on make shift AA weapons ? Could a missile be made in a garage that homes in on its target ? The Germans did it in 1945 and they had to develop it from scratch.

http://www.luft46.com/missile/x-4.html

Given access to modern plans - and electronics - could you make SAMs in T2K ? I think it is as plausible as refurbishing WWII planes and attacking the enemy. Using a jet that burns a ton of fuel were a prop plane that use 100 liters doesnt make sense imho. Air superiority isnt measured by the cold war standards in T2K is my 2 cents- more like WWI.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Given access to modern plans - and electronics - could you make SAMs in T2K ? I think it is as plausible as refurbishing WWII planes and attacking the enemy. Using a jet that burns a ton of fuel were a prop plane that use 100 liters doesnt make sense imho. Air superiority isnt measured by the cold war standards in T2K is my 2 cents- more like WWI.

Well, the upshot is that in the event that someone brings a small number of a/c to the CONUS to use as local air supremacy they're going to find themselves up against a fusillade of AA fire once they become a known threat. I have been told that equipping the AH64 for AIM-9 use is a "simple" field modification. In that spirit I could see ad-hoc SAM vehicles being cobbled together using Sidewinders and 2.5 ton trucks and improvised launch rails. Nothing fancy, mind you, just one guy with a pair of headphones and a firing switch, listening for the "growl" while sitting in the truck cab, with a rack of 'winders pointed downrange towards the FEBA.

Plus stocks of Redeyes, Stingers, etc. that might still be on hand in the US.

Worse (for the enemy a/c) you take a situational (although admittedly non-canon) thing like my "Florida JMC" where they have two working helos and couple that with ad-hoc missile usage and there's a serious threat for enemy a/c. Not in the sense that a Bell Jetranger would be trying to dogfight a Skyraider, mind. I could just see one coordinating with ground forces, hiding behind a building or hills, then when the guys on the ground call for it, popping out, getting a lock, and firing off whatever missiles, then popping back down. Hopefully the enemy's so confident of their own air supremacy and not expecting to get bounced like that they won't see it coming.

[Legbreaker]

Of course in the US there's the School Brigade with their oversupply of dedicated AA vehicles. If the Mexicans had air superiority, I can see Milgov moving heaven and earth to get that unit down there asap.

[Olefin]

FYI one aircraft that you wouldnt think could be available in T2K would be the Grumman Avenger - while there werent that many outside the US there are still even today a significant amount of airworthy Avengers in the US

almost all are TBM-3 and 3E versions but at last count there are at least 33 flyable airworthy planes still in the US and another 25 or so that are either being restored or are on display and could be used to get spare parts

and they are versatile aircraft - you could arm them with bombs or depth charges or just use them for patrol aircraft

you wouldnt want to operate them in areas that still had SAM's or modern aircraft still working - but in other areas they would still be effective

[Raellus]

I guess in some cases, some operational aircraft are better than none, but the Avengers probably wouldn't be worth the trouble to operate, except for as reconnaissance aircraft. As attack aircraft, TBFs would be very vulnerable to modern AAA and even small arms fire. To avoid it, a TBF would have to drop bombs from a significantly higher altitude, seriously compromising accuracy.

Avengers worked as light bombers during WWII because they were usually escorted by scores of Hellcats, which would strafe AAA positions to hell just before or as the Avengers started their bombing runs, allowing the TBFs to drop their bombs unmolested. And Japanese troops were equipped with relatively few automatic weapons, so ground fire from infantry was a negligible threat.

Unless you're operating TBFs against lightly armed bandits, or dropping bombs from beyond effective small arms range, I don't think Avengers are suited to even low intensity modern warfare, a la T2K.

[Vespers War]

One potentially useful place (and one that raketenjagdpanzer should be familiar with) is Kermit Weeks' Fantasy of Flight. Kermit inherited a bunch of money from an oil explorer grandfather and decided to spend a bunch of it on preserving warbirds, with an emphasis on keeping them in flying condition. He has the only remaining flyable Martin Marauder and Short Sunderland, as well as an F4U Corsair, a Spitfire Mk.16, a pair of P-51s (one C and one D), and a B-25 Mitchell. For more utilitarian flying, there's a Curtiss Robin, Ford Tri-Motor (the same one from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom), Stinson Tri-Motor, and the last airworthy Sikorsky S-39 flying boat.

As I'm writing this, I think it may have been brought up before with some question of whether the New America enclave near Tampa could have gotten there with the damage and hostile parties described in canon.

[RN7]

Despite the effects of EMP I think there are quite a few aircraft of all types still about in T2K for the reasons already mentioned by natehale1971 and others.

I would say that both the U.S. and Soviets still has hundreds of them in T2K, but very few are still operational outside of the still oil rich Middle East. The reason for my thinking is a reference to French airpower in Going Home SB on page 30.

"French units in the dead zone are in constant radio communication with their base. If they get into more trouble than they can handle alone, they can call for and receive support in the form of airstrikes or airmobile reinforcements (unlike their opponents, the French Army still has a small quantity of functional aircraft and the fuel to run them). Avgas does not grow on trees,
however, and the platoon who calls for aviation help had better have a good reason for doing so.

Reaction Force: This consists of a helicopter-borne patrol (generally Elite, but often Good) carried in three Puma transport helicopters, and two Gazelle helicopters (one ground attack and one anti-tank version!. It is dispatched against threats which the foot patrols have encountered, but feel are too large for them to handle."

This only references French Army aviation, but if the French Army is still operating a force of helicopters on the border with Germany and the Netherlands then I would assume that the French Air Force still has some operational combat and support aircraft in Europe. Although France sat out the war in Europe until it moved on the Rhineland in 1998 to defend its borders, France is in Europe and would also be affected by EMP from nuclear detonations across Europe. The main difference between France and the other powers in Europe is that the French have aviation fuel to keep an air force of off unknown size flying.

[Legbreaker]

My thoughts are EMP probably effected them as much as anyone, but France still has relatively intact industry to build replacement parts and electronics (after those industries themselves have been repaired of course).
What France doesn't have are slag piles where cities and infrastructure used to be.
So yes in 2000 they have helicopters and probably a few fixed wing craft too, but they're just the handful they've been able to return to service so far (explaining why calling for it is reserved for emergencies). Give it another few years and their airpower would likely be back to full strength again (provided they've got the pilots).

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I guess in some cases, some operational aircraft are better than none, but the Avengers probably wouldn't be worth the trouble to operate, except for as reconnaissance aircraft. As attack aircraft, TBFs would be very vulnerable to modern AAA and even small arms fire. To avoid it, a TBF would have to drop bombs from a significantly higher altitude, seriously compromising accuracy.

Avengers worked as light bombers during WWII because they were usually escorted by scores of Hellcats, which would strafe AAA positions to hell just before or as the Avengers started their bombing runs, allowing the TBFs to drop their bombs unmolested. And Japanese troops were equipped with relatively few automatic weapons, so ground fire from infantry was a negligible threat.

Unless you're operating TBFs against lightly armed bandits, or dropping bombs from beyond effective small arms range, I don't think Avengers are suited to even low intensity modern warfare, a la T2K.

Recon is exactly the mission I was thinking about - that and being used against groups that dont have anything beyond light machine guns for AA and using them at medium altitude as bombers - keep in mind just having an airplane you can use for recon and spotting is a huge advantage even if its not used in any kind of attack mode - and as opposed to a Cessna the plane was built for combat - i.e. it can take hits and keep going if it has to

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Webstral

(SNIP)
I'll resist the temptation to use this as an opportunity to repeat everything I've written about airships and the saving grace PCs can deliver to Milgov as a result of developments in Airlords of the Ozarks.

To be honest, I think the supercoolers/refrigeration units used by the original owners to keep their helium supply liquid might prove useful in separating out air gases by differential distillation, unless I misinterpreted the text.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

(Here there bee snippinge)
Getting back to the topic of aircraft, I read a short story years ago (can't remember the author or more than general details) about a future where corporate wars were the only way to settle disputes, takeovers, etc. Technology was restricted to pre 1900 (I think) with black powder weapons predominant, no vehicles, and certainly no aircraft. Often the "war" would be won without a shot being fired as the larger company could afford to amass a larger mercenary army and essentially guarantee victory.
Our hero chose to join the smaller side, promising victory to the board of directors by use of an undisclosed advantage in return for a massive reward when he delivered.
His plan? Using something like a hang glider (the first one in history flew just before the tech cut off date - a fact only a handful of people knew) as an observation and command and control post. It would allow his side to spot the enemy much sooner and manoeuvre to greater effect, thereby negating the enemy's greater numbers.

I'll see your hang-glider and raise you...kites! South Asian/Indian fighting kites have been on record for centuries. AND...the United States Signal Corps used huge box kites at the end of the 19th century for Meteorological and Communications purposes. Surely one large enough for a (hopefully parachute-equipped) observer could be built?