Vice in T2K

[Raellus]

I've often wondered about the availability of certain soldiers' vices (for lack of a more precise term) late on in the Twilight War, especially in the ETO. Specifically, caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, illicit drugs, and sex. I am not an expert on any of these topics [insert snickering here], and my knoweldge about most of them is either general or second-hand, so I am soliciting your expertise. Please, correct me if I am wrong about any of the following.

As to the first item, caffeine, although I drink it daily, I really don't know a whole lot about it. I assume that most, if not all, coffee in Europe is imported from elsewhere (Latin America, Africa). Same goes for tea (Asia, Africa). I therefore assume that both would be extremely rare in Europe c. 2000. Is this accurate?

As for nicotine, I've never really used it myself, but it seems that an awful lot of soldiers take up smoking during wartime. My sense is that tobacco would be more common and available in Europe than would coffee or tea. I've been told that tobacco can be grown in some parts of Europe, Poland especially, and the Soviet Union of WWII apparently was able to keep its troops well supplied with tobacco. I'm not sure that the former is accurate, and I am making assumptions that the latter indicates that tobacco was domestically produced somewhere in the vast U.S.S.R. How common and available would tobacco be in Europe c.2000?

Alcohol would, I believe, be plentiful. With the proliferation of stills in military units (and presumably, concentrations of civilians as well), grain and potato-based liquor would be very common. Although the quality might be quite variable, I can't imagine that one would need to look very hard or very far to find some hooch.

I have the least personal experience of all with illicit drugs. I would assume that narcotic pharmaceuticals (pain killers, tranquilizers, downers, stimulants, etc.) would be very rare c. 2000. Drugs like cocaine and herroine, based on plants not grown in Europe, would also be very rare. Marijuana, on the other hand, could be grown in many parts of Europe (in greenhouses if the local climate was not generally suitable to cultivation) and would therefore, I think, be somewhat common. I wonder if it might be more common, even, than tobacco.

As to sex, I think that would be the second most available (next to alcohol) vice in Europe c. 2000. Unfortunately, many widowed women, especially young mothers with small children to care fore, resort to prostitution during wartime. Many refugee women, desperate for food, shelter, or protection, have likewise. And then there are the seedier, more nefarious sources of sex to consider. Rape, often seen as a spoil of war (or a form of punishment for the women of the enemy), is unfortunately fairly common in war zones. Sex trafficking might also pick up in more chaotic regions.

I assume that all of these vices would become part of the local economy, either openly or, in the case of illicit drugs and sex, as part of a black market.

These are just preliminary thoughts. The Twilight War would be a very different war, in terms of the global economy, than any other recent conflict. If you have expertise or thoughts about any of these vices, I'd like to read your comments.

[Matt Wiser]

Vices would be plentiful, IMHO. Booze and female company in abundance. Even one of the Twilight Encounters mentions a Soviet cantonment where there's a base club where there's booze available, and rooms "used to consummate sudden relations between the Soviet servicemen and female staff." Krakow, no doubt, has a red-light district (and it's probably taxed)....and no doubt the local alcohol brewers have a steady business supplying the local watering holes.

[mikeo80]

Here, I must disagree with Matt. Prostitution will be HUGE. Because of lack of food. People will be desparate to eat, so a 10 minute quickie for a ration of food? I think this is the most likely scenario.

If the devistation in Germany, Poland etc. is as bad as portrayed in both V1.0 and V2.2, there is going to be very little food growing. What little there is is going to feed the locals, and the various armies that are still rampaging here and there. There is not going to be a lot of surplus food to use for distilling alchohol. I am not saying there will be NO alchohol, just very, very limited.

This, of course, is MVHO. Comments are welcome.

My $0.02

Mike

[weswood]

I have to agree with Mike & Matt, sex would be more readily available than booze. With fuel- gas & deisel- being rationed, preserved for military use only or outright unavailable, alchohol will substitute for practical uses and less for entertainment.

Sex on the other hand will always be available, either a quickie from some widow out to feed her children, or a woman looking for a meal ticket.

I can see a lot of experimenting with various herbs looking for a tobbacco substitute but I don't know what to do about caffiene.

[Raellus]

I forgot gambling. Since ancient times, gambling, whether it be dice, or cards, or goading arachnids into mitiature gladiatorial contests, soldiers have enjoyed games of chance (or wagering on games of skill). That said, in 2000 or so, what would they be risking? Cash and military scrip wouldn't likely hold much value c.2000. Soldiers often gamble rations of the other militarily permissable vices- alchohol rations and cigarettes, most commonly. This once again raises the question of how common such vices would be.

[Neal5x5]

IIRC, there is a blurb in the 2013 book about coffee becoming the new cocaine and export of coffee beans being one of the few highly profitable ventures still going from South America. Coffee is grown in 70 countries, so if there is any contact in the area with contacts who travel around Africa, Arabia, Central or South America, or Asia, it will likely include coffee. Even the artificial stuff will likely be be around (such as Postum was in the US during WWII).

Also, even in times of famine, beer production will likely be around. It's a high caloric beverage (like drinking your bread) and much less likely to infect the drinker with waterborne diseases. If there's bread, then there is likely beer.

[B.T.]

I don't have any correct numbers, but I know, that in the EU a surprisingly high amount of tobacco was cultivated in the 90ies. Nowadays tobacco is not wanted anymore, but in the T2k timeline, there would have been the possibility, to grow tobacco. I can imagine, that on a local basis some farms or small settlements would raise tobacco in order to generate a valuable trading product. Certainly the growing of grains/cereals would be more important for a community, but on a limited scale I can imagine tobacco to give some additional income for farms.
From time to time ilegal cannabis plantations are discovered in Germany. Sometimes the police finds them and destroys them but, yes, in certain areas cannabis can be grown in Western Europe. I suppose, the same is true in Poland - just a guess.

[simonmark6]

Hemp is a good crop however producing fibre, oil and animal feed. As a byproduct, some strands that are commercially viable in N. Europe do have very, very mild level of the psychoactive elements in marijuana. Not much apparently, but maybe enough for a very mild buzz.

In some of my games, smoking the leaves is a perk for farmers and areas that grow hemp but the buzz wasn't enough to justify marketing it commercially.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Neal5x5

IIRC, there is a blurb in the 2013 book about coffee becoming the new cocaine and export of coffee beans being one of the few highly profitable ventures still going from South America. Coffee is grown in 70 countries, so if there is any contact in the area with contacts who travel around Africa, Arabia, Central or South America, or Asia, it will likely include coffee. Even the artificial stuff will likely be be around (such as Postum was in the US during WWII).

Also, even in times of famine, beer production will likely be around. It's a high caloric beverage (like drinking your bread) and much less likely to infect the drinker with waterborne diseases. If there's bread, then there is likely beer.

Coffee and tobacco have been grown in Turkey and around the Mediterranean for a long time--main problem in T2K is transport. Once you can get some tobacco seed, it can be cultivated, but at great cost to the soil quality, from what I understand. Beer and bread production have been linked for, oh, about forever--just skim the yeast barm off the top of the brew in process and you've got leavening for bread.

I caught the oblique reference to "Mudder's Milk" And remember, Ben Franklin got it right when he said that wine (and by extension, beer) "is a constant proof that God loves us and loves to see us happy."

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I forgot gambling. Since ancient times, gambling, whether it be dice, or cards, or goading arachnids into mitiature gladiatorial contests, soldiers have enjoyed games of chance (or wagering on games of skill). That said, in 2000 or so, what would they be risking? Cash and military scrip wouldn't likely hold much value c.2000.

Winner gets out of latrine duty for a week?

- C.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Winner gets out of latrine duty for a week?

- C.

Or--
Who gets first dibs--
--on captured equipment?
--choice of guard duty slots?
--on any luxury items found/obtained?
--on female companionship (that could be either "first choice" or "first in line" depending on the arrangements)?


Or--
Who gets _last_ dibs--
--on gravedigging detail?
--on butcher detail, if meat animals are to be slaughtered?
--on KP duty?

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

Hemp is a good crop however producing fibre, oil and animal feed. As a byproduct, some strands that are commercially viable in N. Europe do have very, very mild level of the psychoactive elements in marijuana. Not much apparently, but maybe enough for a very mild buzz.

In some of my games, smoking the leaves is a perk for farmers and areas that grow hemp but the buzz wasn't enough to justify marketing it commercially.

Trying to get a high on industrial hemp (there are two sub species of c. sativa one of which is high in THC, the other very low.) is like trying to get drunk on O'Douls. The intake would have to be enormus in a short time period.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

Coffee and tobacco have been grown in Turkey and around the Mediterranean for a long time--main problem in T2K is transport. Once you can get some tobacco seed, it can be cultivated, but at great cost to the soil quality, from what I understand. Beer and bread production have been linked for, oh, about forever--just skim the yeast barm off the top of the brew in process and you've got leavening for bread.

I caught the oblique reference to "Mudder's Milk" And remember, Ben Franklin got it right when he said that wine (and by extension, beer) "is a constant proof that God loves us and loves to see us happy."

Tobacco can be grown where ever tomatoes can be grown. Of course the quality comes from the conditions (soil, temps, moisture, length of season, harvesting, curing) under which it is managed. Soil quality (probably referring to nutrients?) can be worked around as you probably would not have hundreds of acres of it. A small patch is usually all that would be grown. A tobacco plant yields ~75 grams of tobacco. A carton of cigarettes (200) would require ~ 200 grams according to my research IIRC. On a 1/10 acre plot (66 feet x 66 feet) under normal practice you could have about 1000 plants. Now figure 75% actually produce (don't die off or get eaten by bugs) that's 750 plants, thats about 280 cartons or 56 kg of tobacco (which is also chewed or smoked in pipes.) I think pipe smoking would make a comeback over cigarettes that require paper.

And a few plants would yield enough seed for acres of tobacco. There are something like 10000 seeds/pound. Tobaccor is usually started in 'sterile' plots and transplanted to the fields so actual field counts may be higher than 75%. There's lots of work to raising tobacco from first planting the seed to end product.

[simonmark6]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

Trying to get a high on industrial hemp (there are two sub species of c. sativa one of which is high in THC, the other very low.) is like trying to get drunk on O'Douls. The intake would have to be enormus in a short time period.

Agreed, which is why it isn't a trade good and is used as a poor substitute for tobacco rather than a means of getting high. I'm sure that if O'Douls was a byproduct of another industry and available cheap or free to the workers they'd drink it if there was nothing else available.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

Agreed, which is why it isn't a trade good and is used as a poor substitute for tobacco rather than a means of getting high. I'm sure that if O'Douls was a byproduct of another industry and available cheap or free to the workers they'd drink it if there was nothing else available.

O'Douls is a 'non alcoholic' malt drink made by a brewer. That is NOT to say there is NO alcohol in it, but less tha .05%. It's not bad and what I drink now, but that's another story.

As for the industrial hemp, it might not be a good narcotic trade item but IS for fiber and seeds I think.

[Apache6]

I've used human traffickers in campaigns in the past as a way to quickly define hostile groups. It's a black and white topic that no honorable man will accept.

Lots of roleplaying oportunities can come from this, including rescuing enslaved friends, family or just locals.

Alternatively a unit of PCs could suddenly find out that their allies after defeating a maruader group or Soviet formation, thinks it's OK to take their females as spoils of war. How do your PCs deal with that?

[Matt Wiser]

Females, as spoils of war, sad to say, is something as old as warfare itself. That would not be unusual, from 1998 onwards. The Soviets would have that view even in the campaigns in the PRC from 1995-97, and Soviet soldiers would likely have the same attitude towards female POWs.