Gulf/Caribbean Naval Activity?

[Rainbow Six]

Thanks Kato,

That raises the question of where the Guantanamo evacuees went (and how many of them there were). I would imagine Norfolk was their most likely destination (again iirc Norfolk is still functioning as a port despite being a target for nuclear strikes?)? Targan mentioned US Marines earlier, and I'd certainly agree that Marines would have stayed on at Guantanamo until the end to guarantee its security - so does that raise the possibility of one (or more) Rifle Companies of experienced US Marines active on the east coast of the US? Commanded by a Colonel Jessup type from a Few Good Men?

Just a thought...

[Olefin]

I could see several destinations - one could be that the US Marines went to Puerto Rico or the Virgin Islands - both of which could use those troops very badly. Or they could have gone to Key West. Considering the distances involved I would think it would be Puerto Rico.

The Caribbean could be a very interesting area indeed for ops in T2000

Consider the following:

Dutch Marines that would love to get payback on the French for what they have done to the Netherlands

Pirate activities as detailed in Gateway to the Spanish Main

Soviet Spetsnaz ops against Puerto Rico that have left personnel stranded there

Puerto Rico possibly devolving into pro-US vs. independence forces fighting it out

breakdown of nation states like Jamaica, Haiti and the Dominican - or possibly wars between them

even something like Barbados, who has a small but efficient military, trying to take over neighboring islands that dont have anything but police to fight back

add in a nice brew of New America possibly trying to build an empire in the Caribbean by taking over islands in the Bahamas or elsewhere and you have a pretty interesting area even if you never did Gateway to the Spanish Main

[kalos72]

I have always loved the idea of Texas being the hub of a Caribbean trade route like the old days...sailing ships and pirates!

And of the idea of collecting old navy vessels along the coast for use back home...scavenging everything.

Even raiding parties to cities/islands to collect raw materials...

[Olefin]

heck didnt even think of stuff like the various criminal organizations in Colombia, Venezuela, US, etc.. doing something like deciding that it would be really great, with no organized law enforcement left to stop them and the various militaries in the area in chaos, to take over an island nation and make it their own private preserve

i.e. I dont see your typical Caribbean police force having the firepower to turn away Pablo Escobar or the Mafia when they show up with their private armies armed with Uzi's and other assorted guns to take over and run the place for themselves

[kalos72]

Updates thoughts here...

If the Mexican Navy was going to try and support the 4th Army drive into Texas, how would they do that?

I am thinking some sort of Naval Infantry assault since there were like 30 battalions of amphibious infantry.

I see 2-3 warships, DD and 2 patrol boats maybe and 2 LST's as the size of the task force.

Thoughts?

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Olefin

heck didnt even think of stuff like the various criminal organizations in Colombia, Venezuela, US, etc.. doing something like deciding that it would be really great, with no organized law enforcement left to stop them and the various militaries in the area in chaos, to take over an island nation and make it their own private preserve

i.e. I dont see your typical Caribbean police force having the firepower to turn away Pablo Escobar or the Mafia when they show up with their private armies armed with Uzi's and other assorted guns to take over and run the place for themselves

The drug cartels may have lots of guns, but what happens when the market for their prime product drops into the cellar? What would they turn to to maintain their strength and their hold on the people under their sway? Here's an ironic switch--the chemists switch over to manufacturing pharmaceuticals. Heroin, morphine, and cocaine, of course, but what would they need to start production runs of aspirin, acetaminophen, sulfa, and other badly-needed and highly-prized and highly-priced medical drugs?

[Olefin]

And those needed drugs would probably bring them more money than ever before. After all if you can make heroin you can make morphine which has a medical use.

Could see them by 2012-2014, as the world recovers, now having transformed into the world's biggest pharmaceutical companies, rivaled only companies in France, still heavily armed because of how rough the world would still be, with things like cocaine being a "special order" only product as their facilities would be devoted to medical drug production almost entirely.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

And those needed drugs would probably bring them more money than ever before. After all if you can make heroin you can make morphine which has a medical use.

Could see them by 2012-2014, as the world recovers, now having transformed into the world's biggest pharmaceutical companies, rivaled only companies in France, still heavily armed because of how rough the world would still be, with things like cocaine being a "special order" only product as their facilities would be devoted to medical drug production almost entirely.

Cocaine is very useful medicinally, as a potent local anesthetic.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

And she is a flight deck...BUT... she has no aircraft support capabilities or other features that would permit her to operate in a combat role. She has been stripped of all armament and fire control equipment and operates only navigation and a single air search radar. Her magazines have been emptied and filled with concrete ballast. Her port deck-edge elevator has been deactivated and forms a permament part of the flight deck (yes they did weld it in place).

The Lexington would have to be extensively modernized and refitted in order to operate in a combat environment...at best her air group would have to consist of Harriers and helicopters. And in the Twilight War....it is doubtful that this would be done.

But in an emergency, she could be used as a floating base for a unit of attack helicopters; I am not talking as a permanent base, but for use for a few days to a week in a comparatively low threat environment - the Mexican Navy air units and Mexican air force do not seem well equipped for anti-ship combat. Add 2 modern frigates to ward off the Mexican Navy's surface craft, and you have a one-shot force to assault the Gulf of Mexico flank of the Mexican advance for a few days, that then retreats to New Orleans for fuel/restock...

Uncle Ted

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

Cocaine is very useful medicinally, as a potent local anesthetic.

Heroin was also first meant to be a local anesthetic, and was later regularly prescribed for general pain and even depression.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Olefin

And those needed drugs would probably bring them more money than ever before. After all if you can make heroin you can make morphine which has a medical use.

Morphine is halfway to heroin, or as the movie The Deep put it, "halfway to hell."

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

The drug cartels may have lots of guns, but what happens when the market for their prime product drops into the cellar? What would they turn to to maintain their strength and their hold on the people under their sway? Here's an ironic switch--the chemists switch over to manufacturing pharmaceuticals. Heroin, morphine, and cocaine, of course, but what would they need to start production runs of aspirin, acetaminophen, sulfa, and other badly-needed and highly-prized and highly-priced medical drugs?

I know aspirin is easy to make if you have a supply of willow trees (and even chewing the willow bark has a pain-relieving effect -- the Cro-Magnons even used that remedy). Don't know about the rest.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Updates thoughts here...

If the Mexican Navy was going to try and support the 4th Army drive into Texas, how would they do that?

I am thinking some sort of Naval Infantry assault since there were like 30 battalions of amphibious infantry.

I see 2-3 warships, DD and 2 patrol boats maybe and 2 LST's as the size of the task force.

Thoughts?

My thought is that I really need to do a Mexican character generation since its important to one module. Are those amphibious units Naval Infantry (Infantry trained to assault from landing craft and boats), or they Marines (an elite organization in most countries that have them).

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Thanks Kato,

That raises the question of where the Guantanamo evacuees went (and how many of them there were). I would imagine Norfolk was their most likely destination (again iirc Norfolk is still functioning as a port despite being a target for nuclear strikes?)? Targan mentioned US Marines earlier, and I'd certainly agree that Marines would have stayed on at Guantanamo until the end to guarantee its security - so does that raise the possibility of one (or more) Rifle Companies of experienced US Marines active on the east coast of the US? Commanded by a Colonel Jessup type from a Few Good Men?

Just a thought...

Doesn't the Spanish Main module have some of the Guantanamo Marines being in Grenada?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Commanded by a Colonel Jessup type from a Few Good Men?

Just a thought...

Jessup is one of those proverbial Marines that should be put in a glass case that says, "Break glass in case of war."

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by unkated

But in an emergency, she could be used as a floating base for a unit of attack helicopters; I am not talking as a permanent base, but for use for a few days to a week in a comparatively low threat environment - the Mexican Navy air units and Mexican air force do not seem well equipped for anti-ship combat. Add 2 modern frigates to ward off the Mexican Navy's surface craft, and you have a one-shot force to assault the Gulf of Mexico flank of the Mexican advance for a few days, that then retreats to New Orleans for fuel/restock...

Uncle Ted

No doubt; but it all comes down to what choppers are carried. Army birds lack the take down/folding features of naval/marine birds; anyone remember the fun when they tried basing a ranger company and attached CH47 and UH60 choppers on the Thedore Roosevelt? You also have the problem of salt water corrosion. Army birds do not have the same level of protection as the navy/marine choppers. So what attack birds carried will most likely be limited to Cobras.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Well, the USS Lexington is home ported out of Pensacola, Florida in the pre war era. And she is a flight deck...BUT... she has no aircraft support capabilities or other features that would permit her to operate in a combat role. She has been stripped of all armament and fire control equipment and operates only navigation and a single air search radar. Her magazines have been emptied and filled with concrete ballast. Her port deck-edge elevator has been deactivated and forms a permament part of the flight deck (yes they did weld it in place).

Her sole mission is to serve as a seagoing platform for landings and takeoffs by pilots from the Pensacola flight school, she is reported to maintain some aircraft refueling capability, but this supply does not consist of more than a few thousand gallons, their are no aircraft maintanance facilities operational.

During the Reagan era, the Navy sought to reactivate the Hancock-class carriers. Congress refused to fund this reactivation due to the poor material condition and lack of suitable combat aircraft that can operate from their flight decks (during the Vietnam War the supported F-8/A-4 squadrons, being too small to operate the F-4s). The best material condition of the three Hancocks (Lexington) is operated as a training carrier.

The Lexington would have to be extensively modernized and refitted in order to operate in a combat environment...at best her air group would have to consist of Harriers and helicopters. And in the Twilight War....it is doubtful that this would be done.

Actually the Lexington, the Wisconsin and her surface action group were all originally supposed to be based at NAVSTA Ingleside at Corpus Christi - the end of the Cold War changed the decision but here that didnt happen.

Thus you would have Lexington, the Wisconsin, a Ticonderoga cruiser, a Kidd destroyer or a Flight I Arleigh Burke destoyer, a Spruance destroyer, three Oliver Hazard Perry frigates and probably a fleet oiler would have been based there.

That happened after the Caribbean module was written meaning that most likely the battleship that took down the Kirov was the Wisconsin and not the New Jersey. By the time Corpus Christi got nuked most likely all those ships would have been on overseas duty - with most of them sunk or damaged already

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I realize it's not Canon, but in my Twilight: Florida vision the Saratoga has a major shoot out with the Russians in the FL straits, loses much of her air compliment, takes an ASM hit but manages to limp in to Key West where she is permanently docked, and will not sail again until extensive repairs are done. Her Sick bay, machine shops, power plants and more importantly manpower keep Key West safe and in MilGov hands. Her helos do very limited flights, and her offloaded remaining fixed-wing aircraft reside at Key West NAS, with two F18s deployed north to Homestead AFB, where there is a reserve of AvGas which allows short sorties on alert.

Her E2C Hawkeye aircraft are an invaluable resource in hurricane tracking (when they can fly).

[WallShadow]

"Based at Key West, Florida are 6 PHMs of PHM Squadron 2."

One wonders if the Conch Republic Navy "nationalizes" the military/Coast Guard assets to add to their own vessels?
http://www.conchrepublic.com/the_beginning.htm

[unkated]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I realize it's not Canon, but in my Twilight: Florida vision the Saratoga has a major shoot out with the Russians in the FL straits.

Considering the location of the Florida Straits.... one asks why?

Why would Saratoga be anywhere near toe to toe distance for a shoot out.

Any Russian vessels in the Florida straits can be assaulted with land-based air assets. Even Saratoga's air assets can be land-based, and Saratoga herself kept away from trouble.

My favorite is a squadron of P-3s carrying 4 Harpoons apiece stood off some 60-70 nm or more; they can be back in a few hours if needed with a next strike, and that's before you ask for USAF assets. For close and dirty, A-10s flying at wavetop, missiles followed by strafing (see Hunt for Red October)

Uncle Ted