U.S. Army 1980's

[Louied]

FORSCOM Priorities Oct 1988 for TAA-96

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

I wondered if that 3rd brigade was meant to be helicoptered as needed as a quick reserve, or possibly airliftable as a strategic reserve for the Pacific theater, or simply easily airliftable from Ft. Lewis to the ROK?

At the time, the 3rd Bd 2ID was at the Camp South of us (can't remember the name, but shouldn't be difficult to find out). I'm sorry, I can't tell you what their job was during wartime.

[Louied]

Not alot out there regarding Korea, but this from May 1991
The Army's Role in the Pacific


https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...110049I031.pdf

[pmulcahy11b]

A CSM (one of our ROTC instructors who had spent a lot of time in SF, including a positing to the SFDB) told me that the SFDB's job in wartime was to leave about a platoon inside of West Berlin, and the rest were to exfiltrate through the wall (at points only they knew about) and "go out and cause trouble in East Germany." What trouble he didn't specify.

[Louied]

Originally Posted by chico20854

Are these plans available anywhere? (Other than a trip to Kew?)

Thanks!

Chico

I am wondering now, did the 28 IND annoy everyone long enough that they were written into being deployed to the UK first?

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Louied

Chico

I am wondering now, did the 28 IND annoy everyone long enough that they were written into being deployed to the UK first?

I guess so?

I was in the 28th in the mid-90s. My impression was that my unit (the signal battalion) was very proficient in its technical performance and utterly and totally lacking in tactical performance. When we have the occasional threads here about "what would have happened to you in the war" I always think my answer would be either "killed in an ambush driving around the division rear area" or "killed while sleeping because the guard was goofing off/sleeping/drinking". The battalion was basically a drinking club that wore camouflage and operated a MSE network...

My duties there concerned keeping track of the equipment and keeping the trucks and generators running (and it was post-Cold War) so I had zero visibility into what the wartime employment was supposed to be!

[Homer]

Originally Posted by Louied

Chico

I am wondering now, did the 28 IND annoy everyone long enough that they were written into being deployed to the UK first?

Maybe this is just a way to keep options open by not committing the 28th or I Corps to a specific alignment in nato plans. The 28th and I Corps also figured in Korean reinforcement plans.

FWIW I corps had training and readiness oversight of 9th motorized, 6th ID, and 7th ID in the late 80s. They kind of acted like the “swing corps”. III, V, VII were all pointed at europe. XVIII was probably going to CENTCOM.

[Louied]

Originally Posted by Homer

Maybe this is just a way to keep options open by not committing the 28th or I Corps to a specific alignment in nato plans. The 28th and I Corps also figured in Korean reinforcement plans.

FWIW I corps had training and readiness oversight of 9th motorized, 6th ID, and 7th ID in the late 80s. They kind of acted like the “swing corps”. III, V, VII were all pointed at europe. XVIII was probably going to CENTCOM.

Are you sure about 28 IND for Korea? If so, please tell more, Korea is plans are hard to find. See my The Army’s Role in The Pacific post yesterday.

In a regional War (just Korea popping off, not the Central Front)
I have only seen plans for the following in the 1980’s:
I Corps
IX Corps
2 IND
6 LID
7 LID
9 Mtz D
25 LID
40 MXD
29 SIB
41 SIB
81 MXB
157 MXB

[Homer]

Yep- came out of a conversation with a former adc-m of the 28th at a meeting. We were talking about Korea and he brought up that starting in 89, the 28th started sending staff officers to usfk exercises and training for the I corps mission on the peninsula.

I’m not sure how far they were written in or what their role was.

[Louied]

That's great info, thank you!

[Homer]

Originally Posted by Louied

That's great info, thank you!

I think Korea became “the only war we have” in the 1990s.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by chico20854

I guess so?

I was in the 28th in the mid-90s. My impression was that my unit (the signal battalion) was very proficient in its technical performance and utterly and totally lacking in tactical performance. When we have the occasional threads here about "what would have happened to you in the war" I always think my answer would be either "killed in an ambush driving around the division rear area" or "killed while sleeping because the guard was goofing off/sleeping/drinking". The battalion was basically a drinking club that wore camouflage and operated a MSE network...

My duties there concerned keeping track of the equipment and keeping the trucks and generators running (and it was post-Cold War) so I had zero visibility into what the wartime employment was supposed to be!

Is this the same 28th that the PA National Guard belongs to and trains at The Gap? When I was in the 4th/92nd FA (Reserve), we had an ORE where a bunch of grunts from the 28th (PA-NG) aggressed our RSOP/Advanced Party while we were surveying a new firing position and we mopped the floor with them. I guess they thought we'd be pushovers even though EVERY NCO on our Advanced Party was a Vietnam [COMBAT] veteran.

We had 26 souls and were aggressed by a Company and we won with only 4 killed & 8 casualties. To this day, I HATE carrying the Pig... right up until the bullets start to fly. NEITHER the M249 nor the M240 are guns that you can advance and fire with very easily. They are too long and have a forward weight distribution in their balance. The Pig, however, is pretty compact with the weight just forward of the gun body, and with the bipod legs swung forward past the muzzle brake, doesn't snag on brush. additionally, the forward bipod legs allow you to set it "muzzle down" for loading without plugging the bore. Muzzle-down loading also helps get the belt moving on the feed tray because gravity holds the belt forward as you close the cover. The 550 rpm rate of fire is also very controllable at a slow walk in the brush. We just laid out a wall of suppressive fire to pin their own base of fire down and went toe-toe with their maneuver element in some dense scrub brush on the edges of our RSOP site. I was impressed with how accurate the M60 is if you just give her 6-round bursts on man-sized targets at about 50m. You could hold those bursts on target FROM THE SHOULDER!

It probably didn't hurt us that EVERY 5-Ton in our Battery (we had just converted from tracked SP 8" M110s to 155mm/6" M198 towed Howitzers) had a .50 Caliber machinegun mounted on it. It was like the Depot Commander at First Army was just standing there watching us load when a Corporal said to him "Hey Sir, what are supposed to do with all these extra M2's over there?" and the Depot Commander said: "Give them to those guys. They have a bunch of 5-Tons with ring mounts on them." We LITERALLY HAD 2 40mm M203s, 2 M60s, 2 M2HBs, and 2 M9's (for the drivers, in place of our Grease Guns) IN EVERY GUN SECTION. In addition, Maintenance (our supply, commo, NBC, and mess sections) had either a .50 Caliber or a MK19 Grenade Launcher, an M60, and a 40mm M203 per section as did our three motor pool trucks, our two FDC trucks, and our three Headquarters/Command vehicles (hummers). We had so many belt-fed MGs that half our ammo draw wasn't even 5.56mm.

But now I know we weren't the only ones who the Army did this for, because I watched the Chieftain's Hatch video on the M1 abrams and those lucky bastards even got a Mossberg 590a1 12 gauge. I'd have been bird hunting while I was deployed if they had issued me a shotgun during RESTORE HOPE (although we did shoot a wild boar that wandered into our battery area once).

[Homer]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

It probably didn't hurt us that EVERY 5-Ton in our Battery (we had just converted from tracked SP 8" M110s to 155mm/6" M198 towed Howitzers) had a .50 Caliber machinegun mounted on it. It was like the Depot Commander at First Army was just standing there watching us load when a Corporal said to him "Hey Sir, what are supposed to do with all these extra M2's over there?" and the Depot Commander said: "Give them to those guys. They have a bunch of 5-Tons with ring mounts on them." We LITERALLY HAD 2 40mm M203s, 2 M60s, 2 M2HBs, and 2 M9's (for the drivers, in place of our Grease Guns) IN EVERY GUN SECTION. In addition, Maintenance (our supply, commo, NBC, and mess sections) had either a .50 Caliber or a MK19 Grenade Launcher, an M60, and a 40mm M203 per section as did our three motor pool trucks, our two FDC trucks, and our three Headquarters/Command vehicles (hummers). We had so many belt-fed MGs that half our ammo draw wasn't even 5.56m.

The HHT of a light cavalry squadron had 22 .50 cals. 8 on support platoon 5 tons, 12 on mess section five tons, and 2 in the maintenance platoon. I’ve heard that putting all 22 on line in the field trains may have been a very unpleasant surprise for the NTC OPFOR.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Homer

I think Korea became “the only war we have” in the 1990s.

That would seem to be the background for the 1991 Army in the Pacific document Louied posted earlier; there's 4 MD and 5 MD mentioned in there as possible Pacific forces.

[shrike6]

6th Infantry Division 1991
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...344085I010.pdf

194th Armored Brigade 1992 w/ proposal for multicomponent bde
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...344157I004.pdf

[shrike6]

This clip from the early 80s makes me wonder if they had decided which 2 divisions these would be before they moved on from HTLD.

[Louied]

Originally Posted by shrike6

6th Infantry Division 1991
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...344085I010.pdf

194th Armored Brigade 1992 w/ proposal for multicomponent bde
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...344157I004.pdf

Shrike,

Excellent! Keep it coming. As an aside, another of the many things that bothered me about T2k and their ORBATS, I think 6LID would have been going to Korea or Japan not half way around the World to Norway, especially when you already had 10 LID earmarked (and had been a POMCUS Div) in the late 1980's.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Homer

I think Korea became “the only war we have” in the 1990s.

You have no idea of how true that was, and probably still is.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

It probably didn't hurt us that EVERY 5-Ton in our Battery (we had just converted from tracked SP 8" M110s to 155mm/6" M198 towed Howitzers) had a .50 Caliber machinegun mounted on it. It was like the Depot Commander at First Army was just standing there watching us load when a Corporal said to him "Hey Sir, what are supposed to do with all these extra M2's over there?" and the Depot Commander said: "Give them to those guys. They have a bunch of 5-Tons with ring mounts on them." We LITERALLY HAD 2 40mm M203s, 2 M60s, 2 M2HBs, and 2 M9's (for the drivers, in place of our Grease Guns) IN EVERY GUN SECTION. In addition, Maintenance (our supply, commo, NBC, and mess sections) had either a .50 Caliber or a MK19 Grenade Launcher, an M60, and a 40mm M203 per section as did our three motor pool trucks, our two FDC trucks, and our three Headquarters/Command vehicles (hummers). We had so many belt-fed MGs that half our ammo draw wasn't even 5.56mm.

But now I know we weren't the only ones who the Army did this for, because I watched the Chieftain's Hatch video on the M1 abrams and those lucky bastards even got a Mossberg 590a1 12 gauge. I'd have been bird hunting while I was deployed if they had issued me a shotgun during RESTORE HOPE (although we did shoot a wild boar that wandered into our battery area once).

That was a surprise when I transferred from 2/7 at 24th ID (now 3rd ID), where most of the trucks, even the legacy deuce-and-a-halfs, had ring mounts for either M60s or M2HBs. When I got to G3 at 2X (2nd ID HHC), none of the trucks had ring mounts for anyone. The MP company that deployed with us had heavily-armed HMMWVs, and once we pulled into a position, we dug pits for "infantry" positions (I, Eric Harmon, and Mike McCauley, as the only true infantrymen in the DTAC, along with a superfluous officer, had to set up those defenses, sleeping positions, the "latrine," etc) we dug fighting positions for heavy and medium machineguns, Dragons, and our single TOW launcher.

When I got to 2X, I was the only one qualified on the Dragon, as well as the only one who knew how to use a ground-mount TOW launcher (though I didn't have a qualification), so I immediately was put on rectifying that problem. And Eric, Mike, and I also had to teach the REMFs how to use about a half-dozen "infantry" weapons, and serve as range personnel when we did M16 qualification. 2X G3 was an awesome unit, and I learned more than I can keep in my head at this late date, but as far as defending the DTOC and DTAC, it was a cluster. Probably why Eric, Mike and I got MSMs when we left the unit.

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Louied

Shrike,

Excellent! Keep it coming. As an aside, another of the many things that bothered me about T2k and their ORBATS, I think 6LID would have been going to Korea or Japan not half way around the World to Norway, especially when you already had 10 LID earmarked (and had been a POMCUS Div) in the late 1980's.

Whats really cool to me about the 6th ID one is that it provides conformation of a second Scout Group in Alaska. Up till now I only had one source on it which was a fuzzy map showing an infantry group in Nome Ak aside from the 207th. I couldnt quite make out the unit number and thought it was the 29th IG now I know its the 297th and was around between at least 1989 to 1991.

It may look like other divisions are closer but if you notice the Strategic Mobility slide it shows that it takes an hour less for the 6th to deploy from Alaska to Europe than for the 10th to deploy from NY. (This includes 2 hours for the 10th to get to an airfield. Using Fairbanks and Syracuse as the starting point and Oslo as the end point. There is only 126 miles difference between the total mileage traveled from either point which isnt alot when your flying.

[Louied]

Shrike6,

Thanks I didn't even think about the air mileage! You do have a point, but do you think they would have withdrawn a PACOM Div while the Soviets were fighting (with a ton of troops) in the Far East and Korea kicking off?

For 10 LID, it looks like they were going to use Griffiss AFB near Utica (before it closed).

Shrike, go over to tanknet, 297 Inf Gp shows up in the October 1990 edition "Army: Magazine of Landpower"

[James1978]

The 297th Infantry Regiment is the parent regiment for Alaska NG Scout/Infantry battalions.

According to the TankNet ORBAT and the Wiki article, 1-297th Infantry (Scout) was in Nome.

I suspect that any mention of a distinct 297th Infantry Group was a typo.

[Louied]

James,

It appears in 1990 they split the 207 Inf Grp in two. The three pure Scout Bns fell under 297 Inf Grp and the others (IIRC one Lt Inf which was a temporary RO for 6 LID, one hybrid Light, and one hybrid Mech) stayed as the 207th. That October 1990 issue lists both of them. Just don’t know the answer to why? One of those things lost in those early end of the Cold War days I guess….

[Louied]

Alaskan Scouts/ARNG
In 1948 the Alaskan units became part of the Army National Guard system with the scout battalions designated the 297th Infantry. In its present organization there are five scout battalions and a group headquarters. The 1st, 2d, and 3d Battalions are "pure" scout units headquartered in Nome, Bethel, and Kotzebue, respectively. Each of these units is made up of a number of scout companies scattered over a geo graphic area equal in size to several of the lower 48 states. The basic scout unit is the five-man scout team consisting of a team leader, a radio telephone operator, and three scouts or observers. Its mis sions are primarily reconnaissance oriented rather than combat oriented. For special operations such as am bushes, raids, or direct combat ac tion, two or more scout teams are organized as a patrol to accomplish the mission. The teams report their observations to their respective company head quarters, which pass the intelligence information to the battalions. From the battalions, the information is passed to the group headquarters and then to the Army Force Commander in Alaska, whose headquarters then sends it to other units within the state. Each scout company has from 10 to 20 teams, depending upon the population in the company area. These scout companies are also unique in that they have female soldiers who are authorized to perform medical, supply, administrative, and communication activities but not ac tive combat missions. The 4th Scout Battalion, located in Juneau and along the southeast Alaska panhandle, is organized some what differently. It is similar to a light infantry unit in that it has light crew-served weapons such as M60 machineguns and 81mm mortars. The unit also has six LCM8 landing craft. The 5th Scout Battalion, in An chorage and Fairbanks, is a mechan ized unit and has both Ml 13 and M577 armored vehicles. This unit has more ground mobility than its sister units and heavier firepower with its .50 caliber machineguns and 107mm mortars. It can be considered a cross between an armored cavalry and a mechanized infantry unit and is responsible for covering the state's in terior road network and for helping to defend the various military in stallations in the interior. The group headquarters company has a company headquarters, a group headquarters, a communication pla toon, an airborne detachment (to per form long range reconnaissance patrols and pathfinder missions), and an aviation detachment (with 18 UH-1 and 4 CH-54 aircraft). Each battalion has an aviation section with two UH-1 and one UV-18 Twin Otter fixed-wing aircraft, and the 4th and 5th Battalions also have combat engineer platoons. Because of their scattered locations and specialized missions, these scouts have to rely on aerial resupply or live off the land.

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Louied

James,

It appears in 1990 they split the 207 Inf Grp in two. The three pure Scout Bns fell under 297 Inf Grp and the others (IIRC one Lt Inf which was a temporary RO for 6 LID, one hybrid Light, and one hybrid Mech) stayed as the 207th. That October 1990 issue lists both of them. Just don’t know the answer to why? One of those things lost in those early end of the Cold War days I guess….

There had to be some history there. Think about the US Army/ American Vehicle Guides for a moment. The 1st and 2nd IB, the 2nd is the 207th as stated. The 1st states that it is an Alaskan ARNG Bde that assumed responsibility for internal security and LRRP along the Bering Strait. I have a hard time believing in coincidences. There had to be some talk in the early 1980s of putting an additional bde sized combat unit in the AK NG. Which eventually produced the 297the IG IMO.

Originally Posted by Louied

Thanks I didn't even think about the air mileage! You do have a point, but do you think they would have withdrawn a PACOM Div while the Soviets were fighting (with a ton of troops) in the Far East and Korea kicking off?

I suppose it came down to which theater needed the manpower more and it is alot easier to shift the 6ID east to Europe rather than the 7th or the Electric Strawberry.

Originally Posted by Louied

For 10 LID, it looks like they were going to use Griffiss AFB near Utica (before it closed).

Sounds right, it was late when I was writing that last nite. Utica changes the mileage to 3,585 mi.

Originally Posted by Louied

Shrike, go over to tanknet, 297 Inf Gp shows up in the October 1990 edition "Army: Magazine of Landpower"
Yesterday 04:31 PM

Great find Louie!

[shrike6]

Heres the map I'm talking about. https://history.army.mil/html/books/...ub_70-30-1.pdf

[Louied]

From Army Planning Guidance July 1985 FY 1992 to 2005

[shrike6]

3/6th Infantry Historical Supplement 1989
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...279014I001.pdf

84th Infantry Division early 80s?
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...15MN004591.pdf

[shrike6]

More on NG Infantry Division design
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...94MN002106.pdf

OPLAN for NTC rotation 90-5
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...144726I001.pdf

Proposal to move 2-123rd Attack Heli from USAR to WI NG
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...15MN002241.pdf

Mid 80s force reduction proposal
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...F25169I002.pdf

NTC rotation 1-85 Summary
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...354154I001.pdf

JRTC rotation 94-8
https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...364895I001.pdf

[Louied]

Shrike,

Keep it up! Great stuff!