Out of Mothballs: Obsolescent Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Could be. I have seen any follow-up either way.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/39228/...ibious-vehicle

I wonder if these massive LARC-LX amphibs might have been dusted off and used in Europe- perhaps to cross the Vistula- during T2k.

Paul, I poked around on your site for this one and didn't find it, but I wasn't sure which category to look in.

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Dusted off? Four of them were still in service in 2001. They hadn't seen combat service since the '70's, but they were still in commission with the 309th Transportation Company, 11th Transportation Battalion (based out of Fort Story, Virginia Beach, Virginia). There are at least four survivors in museums, one in Florida, one in Virginia, one in Tennessee, and one in the Netherlands.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Raellus

The OT-810 was basically a lightly modified, Czech-made Sd.Kfz. 251 half-track APC with a Tatra diesel engine. According to Wikipedia, about 1,500 OT-810s were manufactured between 1958-1962, and the last examples weren't removed from Czech army depots until 1995. I imagine they would have seen action during the Twilight War.

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photo
Recalled reservists of the 24th Motor Rifle Division by their OT-810 APC before invading Austria, Summer 1997.
(from my Czechoslovak Vehicle Guide)

[Raellus]

That's where I'd seen it before! I should have realized. Thanks, Chico.

[swaghauler]

Check out ADAM SOMETHING'S YouTube channel for photos of this...

The Russians are sending a train loaded with T-62 MBTs to Ukraine! I wonder how much ammo they have stockpiled? There's a certain irony in the fact that Russia is now using a tank on the battlefield that was introduced to the world BEFORE I WAS BORN!

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by chico20854

photo
Recalled reservists of the 24th Motor Rifle Division by their OT-810 APC before invading Austria, Summer 1997.
(from my Czechoslovak Vehicle Guide)

If there's ever an update/revision of the CVG, I noticed two things.

First, on page 26, the caption refers to the Ondova T-72M1 as an Ondava.

Second, another vehicle that could be added is the OT-810D, which was the OT-810 with an 82mm vz. 59 (M-59A) recoilless rifle (which Paul has here). 280 of them were converted from the APCs in the 1960s. At least 4 are known to survive today in Czech Republic.

Sort of a third thing but not really, the OT-810C was also notable for having an enclosed passenger cabin, so infantry were a little less vulnerable than in the Sd.Kfz 251.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Check out ADAM SOMETHING'S YouTube channel for photos of this...

The Russians are sending a train loaded with T-62 MBTs to Ukraine! I wonder how much ammo they have stockpiled? There's a certain irony in the fact that Russia is now using a tank on the battlefield that was introduced to the world BEFORE I WAS BORN!

I had looked into the ammo when I saw the news, and Nexter in France was manufacturing 115mm APFSDS-T ammunition at least up to 2018, and presumably they weren't the only manufacturer. It's still moderately well-represented among former client states of the Soviets, with Syria and Egypt both having quite a few, and North Korea's Ch'onma-ho being derived from the T-62 (although the newest Ch'onma-ho V uses a knock-off of the 125mm gun instead of the 115mm).

[Raellus]

Here's an article about the T-60 deployment Swag told us about a few days ago.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-ukraine-front

"Quantity has a quality all its own." -Josef Stalin

We shall see...

I think it's interesting how Soviet/Russian army tactics changed since WW2. Leaving aside artillery for a moment, in WW2, most attacks started with infantry. Early in the war, these infantry often attacked in human waves. Later, infiltration tactics were utilized to good effect. Once a breakthrough was achieved, tank formations would rush into the breach to begin the deep penetration, exploitation phase. It could be costly, in terms of infantry casualties, but it worked.

After WW2, during the Cold War, all Soviet infantry became Motor Rifles, and rode into battle in BTRs and/or BMPs. The days of pure infantry attacks seem to have passed. It wasn't broke, so why did the Soviet high command decide to fix it? Did they suddenly start caring about friendly casualties?

Since the end of the Cold War (Part 1), first in Grozny, then in the attack on Kiev, the Russians have sent armored forces into MOUT without dismounted infantry support, both times with disastrous results for the attackers.

I haven't read much about Russian tactics in the Donbass in recent weeks, but apparently, most attacks start with serious artillery prep.

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[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Here's an article about the T-60 deployment Swag told us about a few days ago.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-ukraine-front

"Quantity has a quality all its own." -Josef Stalin

We shall see...

I think it's interesting how Soviet/Russian army tactics changed since WW2. Leaving aside artillery for a moment, in WW2, most attacks started with infantry. Early in the war, these infantry often attacked in human waves. Later, infiltration tactics were utilized to good effect. Once a breakthrough was achieved, tank formations would rush into the breach to begin the deep penetration, exploitation phase. It could be costly, in terms of infantry casualties, but it worked.

After WW2, during the Cold War, all Soviet infantry became Motor Rifles, and rode into battle in BTRs and/or BMPs. The days of pure infantry attacks seem to have passed. It wasn't broke, so why did the Soviet high command decide to fix it? Did they suddenly start caring about friendly casualties?

Since the end of the Cold War (Part 1), first in Grozny, then in the attack on Kiev, the Russians have sent armored forces into MOUT without dismounted infantry support, both times with disastrous results for the attackers.

I haven't read much about Russian tactics in the Donbass in recent weeks, but apparently, most attacks start with serious artillery prep.

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Those infantry tactics meant only 1 in 20 of the men who were 18 YO in 1940 were still alive in 1945. I don't think Russia could do it unless they were being invaded.

[Tegyrius]

Shut this thread down. The Ukrainian Cossack cosplayers won:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...tury-ancestors

- C.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Shut this thread down. The Ukrainian Cossack cosplayers won:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...tury-ancestors

- C.

Now that's an example of pulling everything off the shelves you can!

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Shut this thread down. The Ukrainian Cossack cosplayers won:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...tury-ancestors

- C.

I liked the Maxim with the Holo Sight on it. The Ukrainians are truly our (American) "gun cousins." Normally, only a US "redneck" would take the time to fabricate a sight mount for a gun built more than 100 years ago.

At the rate that Russia is losing its armor and jets, I wonder how long it will be before Russian arms dealers are trying to buy Macedonia's MIG 19s?

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Those infantry tactics meant only 1 in 20 of the men who were 18 YO in 1940 were still alive in 1945. I don't think Russia could do it unless they were being invaded.

Good point, but I wasn't suggestion a return to the desperate human wave attacks of 1941-'42. I'm just surprised that the Russians haven't really tried to replicate the very successful (and less costly) tactic of preceding attempted breakthroughs with infantry infiltration attacks, instead of trying to batter their way through with armor (which clearly isn't working very well thanks to St. Javelin and her friends).

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[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Good point, but I wasn't suggestion a return to the desperate human wave attacks of 1941-'42. I'm just surprised that the Russians haven't really tried to replicate the very successful (and less costly) tactic of preceding attempted breakthroughs with infantry infiltration attacks, instead of trying to batter their way through with armor (which clearly isn't working very well thanks to St. Javelin and her friends).

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Given current Russian performance though, getting pasted by the West makes TDM more likely in any WW3 scenario.

[Bestbrian]

I have a suspicion those T-62s are being shipped up to be used as static defensive emplacements. The Russians have supposedly been fortifying their gains in the south ahead of a Ukrainian counterattack.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Bestbrian

I have a suspicion those T-62s are being shipped up to be used as static defensive emplacements. The Russians have supposedly been fortifying their gains in the south ahead of a Ukrainian counterattack.

My thinking was that they were going to swap the T-62s for the DPR and LPR's T-72 and T-80 tanks (and possibly the T-64s, although AFAIK Russia doesn't have any T-64 units these days). That way, they could get some resupply (or at least parts donor tanks) for their own units under the guise of standardizing the insurrectionists' equipment. I may be too generous in my assumptions about their thinking about logistics, though.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Now that's an example of pulling everything off the shelves you can!

Ukraine had 35,000 PM1910/41 in storage about a decade ago. There are a lot of shelves to pull them from, and for a vehicular or fortification mount where the gun doesn't have to be particularly mobile, it's still a perfectly valid piece of equipment.

[Raellus]

A WW2-era tank gun (T34/85) fielded as a towed anti-tank gun, with secondary (or primary, depending on the bigger picture) indirect artillery capabilities. If it's seeing combat use in today's Ukraine, IRL, it would definitely feature in the Twilight War.

https://www.army.mil/article/222483/...m_antitank_gun

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[Raellus]

This cool Twitter feed (Ukraine Weapons Tracker) includes a pic of a WWII-era DP-27 LMG fitted with an optic and suppressor.

https://twitter.com/UAWeapons?ref_sr...0408%2Fpage-10

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[ToughOmbres]

In the Twilight War I can see the large numbers of 1895 seven shot Nagant revolvers being brought of deep storage and issued to mobilization only divisions or dispersed to Pact Allies mobilization only divisions. What say you?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbres

In the Twilight War I can see the large numbers of 1895 seven shot Nagant revolvers being brought of deep storage and issued to mobilization only divisions or dispersed to Pact Allies mobilization only divisions. What say you?

Some Russian Generals carry the Nagant even now. So it would probably be issued out at some point in the Twilight War.

[Raellus]

Back from 1952, the Ferret Scout Car, formerly known by the less ferocious sobriquet, the Field Mouse, is making an appearance in Ukraine.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-up-in-ukraine

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[ToughOmbres]

From the recent 25 years ago updates...anyone care to speculate how many Albanian reservists will be fortunate enough to have SKS/SKS clones and how many will be issued Carcano rifles courtesy of Italy from World War II?

[chico20854]

According to this site, there's all kinds of old stuff in use there, especially among the militias!

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbres

From the recent 25 years ago updates...anyone care to speculate how many Albanian reservists will be fortunate enough to have SKS/SKS clones and how many will be issued Carcano rifles courtesy of Italy from World War II?

Relatively few SKS - Albania produced only 15-20K of them. In the early 2000s, the most common weapons seized from illegal stockpiles that had been looted from armories were the AK-47, TT pistol, M56 submachine gun, and only as a fairly distant fourth the SKS. Especially because of the emphasis on partisan/guerilla warfare, I expect a lot of reservists would be issued SMGs to provide a base of fire, with one or two SKS in a squad as sharpshooters/designated marksmen.

[.45cultist]

Also, the NATO stockpile update by the Clinton Administration never happened in V1-2.2 canon. This means that the US has M1911A1's, M3A1's, M14's and M48A5's warehoused and not given to Turkey.

[ToughOmbres]

For V1 or 2 canon could we also assume there would be an expedited return of M1 Garand, M 1 Carbines and 1911's from Military Assistance Programs to Allies or would you as referee assume the small arms would be of limited use and left in place rather than devote resources to bring them back home?

[bash]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbres

For V1 or 2 canon could we also assume there would be an expedited return of M1 Garand, M 1 Carbines and 1911's from Military Assistance Programs to Allies or would you as referee assume the small arms would be of limited use and left in place rather than devote resources to bring them back home?

I don't think the government would bother trying to bring back such weapons. Before TDM there wouldn't be much of a need and after TDM there wouldn't be much capability.

Even if they came back to the US, ammunition production after TDM would be common NATO rounds to support the war, not oddball (relatively speaking) rounds for M1 Garands and Carbines.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by bash

I don't think the government would bother trying to bring back such weapons. Before TDM there wouldn't be much of a need and after TDM there wouldn't be much capability.

Even if they came back to the US, ammunition production after TDM would be common NATO rounds to support the war, not oddball (relatively speaking) rounds for M1 Garands and Carbines.

As far as .30-06, I think that there would be more around than you think, but in the civilian supply chain. .30-06 is a common hunting round in the US and to a lesser extent in the rest of the world, and commercial manufacturing has been going strong since the 1910s.

M1 descendants are also fairly common hunting weapons, so there may be less spare parts issues with issue of M1 Garands from government stocks or impounded civilian stocks. (I don't think this would happen until post-TDM, however.)

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

As far as .30-06, I think that there would be more around than you think, but in the civilian supply chain. .30-06 is a common hunting round in the US and to a lesser extent in the rest of the world, and commercial manufacturing has been going strong since the 1910s.

M1 descendants are also fairly common hunting weapons, so there may be less spare parts issues with issue of M1 Garands from government stocks or impounded civilian stocks. (I don't think this would happen until post-TDM, however.)

Lake City loads 100,000 AP rounds or so every few years for body armor testing. the armor levels are based on the .30-06 AP penetration.

[bash]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

As far as .30-06, I think that there would be more around than you think, but in the civilian supply chain. .30-06 is a common hunting round in the US and to a lesser extent in the rest of the world, and commercial manufacturing has been going strong since the 1910s.

M1 descendants are also fairly common hunting weapons, so there may be less spare parts issues with issue of M1 Garands from government stocks or impounded civilian stocks. (I don't think this would happen until post-TDM, however.)

Like I said, before TDM there wouldn't be a need for M1s (Garand or Carbine) and after TDM there might be a need but little means to actually get them to the US. Post-TDM no one is going to spend valuable fuel to transport a bunch of rifles back to the US.

In terms of ammo production, the US would likely enforce the Defense Production Act as soon as US forces start fighting. So from 1996 onwards small arms companies are going to be spitting out NATO standard stuff (guns, ammo, maintenance kits, etc). Production of ammo etc for the civilian market will drop to a trickle.

The US getting a few tens of thousands of M1s will be a logistical challenge rather than a helpful addition. Every cleaning kit, stripper clip, and .30-06 round is one less produced that could be used for the US/NATO service weapons.

So I don't see the utility of the US trying to field M1s. I do however think those MAP recipient countries would be fielding them. Even if their front line forces had newer weapons they'd equip militias/conscripts/rear echelons with their old M1s. The sorts of places that got MAP weapons aren't seeing the same level of fighting as Europe or the Far East.