Out of Mothballs: Obsolescent Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[Raellus]

TIL that Romania had 47 SU-100 self-propelled tank destroyers in reserve as of 2016!

Does anyone know if the SU-100 is stat'ed in any T2k book (any version)?

What other older weapon systems would you expect to see brought out of retirement and encountered on the battlefield c.2000?

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[Vespers War]

All of these are caveated with "last I heard," and may be out of date.

Cuba and North Korea still had T-34 tanks in service, and Vietnam was still using them as training vehicles.

Meanwhile Paraguay has 3 Shermans with diesel engines and the 105mm gun from the AMX-13, along with roughly a dozen Stuarts.

The Kostiantynivka incident suggests some of the Iosif Stalin tanks could be reactivated.

Taiwan has M41 Walker Bulldogs and M48 Pattons (I believe in reserve).

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Raellus

TIL that Romania had 47 SU-100 self-propelled tank destroyers in reserve as of 2016!

Does anyone know if the SU-100 is stat'ed in any T2k book (any version)?

What other older weapon systems would you expect to see brought out of retirement and encountered on the battlefield c.2000?

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You doubted that Paul has it somewhere. Tisk tisk.

http://www.pmulcahy.com/PDFs/Twilight_2000_WWII.pdf

Page 95

[shrike6]

Paul has it on his main pages as well. http://www.pmulcahy.com/sp_guns/russian_sp_guns.htm scroll to the bottom.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by kato13

You doubted that Paul has it somewhere. Tisk tisk.

Not for a second. Of course Paul has it! I just wondered if the SU-100 made it into any of the books. I checked the v1 Soviet Vehicle Guide before I posted and it does not include the SU-100.

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[Matt Wiser]

Don't forget the Littlefield Armor Collection. In T2K that would be very valuable to MilGov in California, and they would "appropriate" it. Even if it means giving Mr. Littlefield a field commission as a Major or Lt. Colonel.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Don't forget the Littlefield Armor Collection. In T2K that would be very valuable to MilGov in California, and they would "appropriate" it. Even if it means giving Mr. Littlefield a field commission as a Major or Lt. Colonel.

Thanks for the reminder. We have a couple of threads here somewhere dedicated to discussion of the Littlefield Collection, and other private repositories of working AFVs.

I think the Pancerovka P-27 (a Czechoslovakian version of the RPG-2 with a larger warhead) would have been dusted off for use during the Twilight War.

http://tonnel-ufo-english.tk/weapon/...rovka-p-27.php

Of course, it's already stat'ed on Paul's Website.

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[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Raellus

...
What other older weapon systems would you expect to see brought out of retirement and encountered on the battlefield c.2000?

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Just about every US Army base I have ever been to has at least some military museum, how easy to reactivate them I do not know, I do know at Redstone when we were out in the training area one of my guys found a old M60 and was able to get it to start (did not run long or well). Also in 2003 when we were in Iraq M4A3 (76) were found (at least one that I personally laid eyes on) with spare pars and ammo (all from WWII I am guessing, so no idea what shape it was in).

[Ursus Maior]

Yugoslavian successor states and their predecessor militias pulled out M36 tank destroyers out of depots and arsenals. They were used by Croats, Slovenes and Bosnians plus Serbs, though I don't know if references to "Serbia" here mean Serbs in Bosnia or pre-dominantly Serbian units of the Yugoslavian state. Technically, Serbia only came into existence again as a separate state in 2006, when Macedonia left Yugoslavia (the only peaceful split from that state) and only Serbia remained as part of Yugoslavia, renaming the state subsequently.

The T-34 was also used by Bosnians in the Yugoslav Wars and is still in use in African nations, as well as probably in Cuba and North Korea. There were various refurbishing programs to the T-34 line after the war, including new engines, but also introducing night driving equipment, additional fuel, and other modernization. These might still have certain battlefield value late in war and certainly in 2000, when essentially every steel-plated vehicle is king, since by that time we're talking Libyan / Syrian Civil War style warfare and fuel is as much a problem as are actual vehicles.

[.45cultist]

Alabama Arsenal stores everything including vehicles. WW2 and Vietnam reenactors acting as militia are other sources.

[Olefin]

The 1st US Volunteer Mechanized Battalion is in Kenya using a variety of WWII and early Cold War equipment - i.e. Stuart and Sherman and M47 tanks, Ferrets and Greyhound AC

Mexico and Brazil were both operating Stuart tanks (the ones in Brazil were extensively upgraded - the X1A1 and the X1A2) during the timeline and there were still Greyhound Armored Cars operated by several countries if I remember right

Israel still had upgraded Sherman tanks in its inventory and African nations were still operating T-34's

Paraguay had Stuart tanks in service as late as 2014

In 2018, there were multiple countries that maintained T-34s in the inventories of their national armed forces: Cuba, Yemen, the Republic of the Congo, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Namibia, North Korea, Laos, and Vietnam.

[.45cultist]

Also, there's the Cactus Air Force and it's WW2 aircraft.

[Vespers War]

On the East Coast there's the AAF Tank Museum in Danville, VA (on the North Carolina border). The collection there includes:

US armored vehicles:
M1917, M4A3E8 Sherman Bulldozer, M5A1 Stuart, M18 Hellcat, M47 Patton, M48A5 Patton, M103, M41A3 Walker Bulldog, M60, M60A2, M60A3

German PzKpfw IV Ausf H, Soviet T-34/85, Iraqi T-54 and T-72

A half-dozen APCs and their derivatives (M59, M75, M113, M114, M163, M901)

Some of the vehicles (I don't know which, but posts from people who have been there say "most of them") are in running condition and are driven on demonstration days. It wouldn't have been as large in the Twilight War, since the original museum was in Mattituck, NY, and much smaller; it moved to Virginia in 2003 (according to a news article, the move consisted of 2,597 tons of stuff). For someone running a later timeline, though, that could be a treasure trove of materiel.

[Raellus]

To clarify the OP, I was addressing the deployment of relatively large stocks of mothballed weaponry, not so much one-offs like museum collections. The main issue that I see with the latter is a lack of spare parts and expertise re operation, maintenance, and upkeep. If anyone would like to discuss museum exhibits returning to combat, here are a couple of threads that address that topic specifically:

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....ht=littlefield

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....ht=littlefield

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[Olefin]

in the 90's the US had a lot of older M60 and M48 tanks still in storage as well as close to 500 M47 tanks in Italy in storage - they had spare parts and ammo and were ready to rock

the Soviets/Russians had close to a 1000 T-10A/M tanks in reserve still in 1996 as well as 1400 plus T-34 variants that were being used for driver training and could have been brought back

In both cases there (at least at first) would have been plenty of ammo and spare parts in stock - the question is how long would that last - the Soviets were still making ammo for the T-34 if I remember right until late in the 1980's

As for the M60 - there was a GAO report in the mid-90's about how enough ammo had been produced for the M60A2 that it could have kept the ones that were still in existence supplied with ammo for literally decades

[Raellus]

That's exactly what I'm talking about! Thanks.

Originally Posted by Olefin

in the 90's the US had a lot of older M60 and M48 tanks still in storage as well as close to 500 M47 tanks in Italy in storage - they had spare parts and ammo and were ready to rock

Intriguing. Where did you learn about the M47s in Italy? And to clarify, those are US M47s, not Italian M47s, correct?

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[Olefin]

the information on the M47's came from the Nato order of battle 1989 mod 8 that is on several websites - its been cited here in several threads

For Italy 1989 (which is basically the V1 situation)

Total tanks in inventory:
200 Leopard 1A1, 720 Leopard 1A2, 300 M60A1, 400+ M47;

2 Armoured Battalion with 34 M47 and one with 16 (they kept the 5-tanks platoons) for a total of 84; other in Carabinieri Mobile Battalions and as many as 300 in storage.

In the US section there is the following note

Tanks: 2374 M1 Abrams, 894 IPM1, 2100+ M1A1 (deliveries ongoing), 5328 M60A3, 2659 M60A1, as many as 1800 M48A5 , 1334 M551 Sheridan, 630 M47s (according to CFE records – appears to reflect fact that Italian vehicles used for decades were leased or temporary transfers that returned to US control when taken out of service)

Thus it appears that the M47 tanks in storage in Italy were leased/transfer tanks per the CFE records

You also have this AP article on US destruction of M-47 tanks required under the CFE

https://apnews.com/article/dc5dc316c...43e1f90595576d

The United States will destroy 640 M-47 tanks - they’re almost a half- century old - but has yet to choose a contractor, said Capt. Debra Pressley of the U.S. European command in Stuttgart.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

To clarify the OP, I was addressing the deployment of relatively large stocks of mothballed weaponry,

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Where does the US (or any other country, for that matter) keep their mothballed military vehicles? Is there some equivalent to AMARC?

[shrike6]

Here's something that should be helpful for this thread.
http://the.shadock.free.fr/The_USA_H...V_Register.pdf

Originally Posted by Raellus

That's exactly what I'm talking about! Thanks.



Intriguing. Where did you learn about the M47s in Italy? And to clarify, those are US M47s, not Italian M47s, correct?

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Olefin can reveal his source but I'm pretty sure that came to light as part of the CFE treaty. Some DRMO warehouse in Italy still had m47 tanks that were being counted towards the US total or something along those lines if I remember right.

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Olefin

the information on the M47's came from the Nato order of battle 1989 mod 8 that is on several websites - its been cited here in several threads

For Italy 1989 (which is basically the V1 situation)

Total tanks in inventory:
200 Leopard 1A1, 720 Leopard 1A2, 300 M60A1, 400+ M47;

2 Armoured Battalion with 34 M47 and one with 16 (they kept the 5-tanks platoons) for a total of 84; other in Carabinieri Mobile Battalions and as many as 300 in storage.

In the US section there is the following note

Tanks: 2374 M1 Abrams, 894 IPM1, 2100+ M1A1 (deliveries ongoing), 5328 M60A3, 2659 M60A1, as many as 1800 M48A5 , 1334 M551 Sheridan, 630 M47s (according to CFE records – appears to reflect fact that Italian vehicles used for decades were leased or temporary transfers that returned to US control when taken out of service)

Thus it appears that the M47 tanks in storage in Italy were leased/transfer tanks per the CFE records

You also have this AP article on US destruction of M-47 tanks required under the CFE

https://apnews.com/article/dc5dc316c...43e1f90595576d

The United States will destroy 640 M-47 tanks - they’re almost a half- century old - but has yet to choose a contractor, said Capt. Debra Pressley of the U.S. European command in Stuttgart.

Or beat me before I even post. LOL I knew it had to do with CFE anyways.

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Olefin

the information on the M47's came from the Nato order of battle 1989 mod 8 that is on several websites - its been cited here in several threads

You also have this AP article on US destruction of M-47 tanks required under the CFE

https://apnews.com/article/dc5dc316c...43e1f90595576d

["]The United States will destroy 640 M-47 tanks - they’re almost a half- century old - but has yet to choose a contractor, said Capt. Debra Pressley of the U.S. European command in Stuttgart.["]

I like the NATO OOB document that's on the internet, but it's not always completely accurate. My main problem is the lack of source documentation, but alas, in its core its 20+ years old, so it's history itself.

As per the IISS publication "The Military Balance (1990)", the US (p. 19) had as "MBT: some 15,440: 1,013 M-48A5, 2,659 M-60/M-60AI, 5,328 M-60A3, 6,440 M-I/M-IAI Abrams."

Italy had (p. 71) "MBT: 1,533: 313 M-47 (in store), 300 M-60A1, 920 Leopard (140 in store)."

For 1989 these numbers were (USA, p. 18) "MBT: sorne 15,992: l, III M-48A5, 3,487 M-60/M-60AI, 5,400 M-60A3, 5,994 M-I/M-IAI Abrams."

And (Italy, p. 68) "MBT: 1,720: 500 M-47 (incl200 in reserve), 300 M-60Al, 920 Leopard."

That contradicts the idea that by 1992 640 M47 would have been to be disposed of that previously were in any form of a ready state. Now, AP certainly was right about the disposal, but I cannot reconstruct how the numbers came to pass. Maybe these included tanks returned from allied nations under some leasing contracts.

It's not clear how many of these could have survived until 1995-1997, when tensions rose again and hostilities broke out respectively.

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Where does the US (or any other country, for that matter) keep their mothballed military vehicles? Is there some equivalent to AMARC?

Its called Sierra Army Depot
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/sierra-army-depot

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that we are talking all versions here

V1 doesnt have the CFE occur - its the old Cold War that never ends so the CFE never happens

V2.2 has the CFE occur I am pretty sure

as for V4 - I dont remember if the CFE is mentioned in the timeline

Thus the M-47 tank being available as a replacement tank for the US for later in the war really depends on what version you are playing and if the CFE occurred or not

Without it occurring a lot of older equipment is sitting in storage depots

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Keep in mind that we are talking all versions here

V1 doesnt have the CFE occur - its the old Cold War that never ends so the CFE never happens

V2.2 has the CFE occur I am pretty sure

as for V4 - I dont remember if the CFE is mentioned in the timeline

Thus the M-47 tank being available as a replacement tank for the US for later in the war really depends on what version you are playing and if the CFE occurred or not

Without it occurring a lot of older equipment is sitting in storage depots

One thing that may not matter in a game, is crew skill. I was initially trained as a M1 tank crewman, but I was trained when we still had M60's in service. So there was some cross training, and many of the systems were the same. If I was put into a M47 I would for all intents and purposes be untrained. I could probably load the main gun, and maybe run the radio, but not likely I could gun, maybe drive (I did grow up on a farm and can drive stick up to and including tractor trailers) but without someone who knows the ins and outs of the tank, moving from one tank to another is not as simple as all that. There is a reason it takes 16 weeks to train a tank crewman. In full disclosure this is also one of my pet peeves with TW2000.

[Brit]

The Karabiner 98k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabiner_98k

I think it is mentioned in 'The Ruins of Warsaw' as the weapon carried by militia sections? Plus, just too many about to not be in use. Weren't captured WWII ones put up for sale a while back by the Soviets / USSR / agents / ? from warehouses in the Soviet Union / Russia - cannot remember if it was pre / post - and people in the USA were buying them?

Ditto: There must be a lot of Lee Enfield SMLEs about all over the world plus copies/ In fact a photo here of a "SMLE owned by Maoist rebels in Nepal, 2005".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee%E2...93Enfield_Mk_I

Before the T2K period, but... https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/...atollahs-iran/ But probably not all thrown away / lost / scrapped...

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Brit

The Karabiner 98k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabiner_98k

I think it is mentioned in 'The Ruins of Warsaw' as the weapon carried by militia sections? Plus, just too many about to not be in use. Weren't captured WWII ones put up for sale a while back by the Soviets / USSR / agents / ? from warehouses in the Soviet Union / Russia - cannot remember if it was pre / post - and people in the USA were buying them?

Good call. And I think we'd see the same thing with the Mosin-Nagant. The Soviets/Russians had huge stockpiles. IIRC, they only started to flood the civilian market here in the States (you could get one at a sporting goods store for $100) after the dissolution of the USSR, when the Russians were doing whatever they could to bring in hard currency from the west. That wouldn't have happened in the v1 or v4 T2kUs.

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[Brit]

If this is up-to-date they are still in military use.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%...world-wide_use

Have not read it all so "buyer beware": http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/filea...pter-06-EN.pdf

Re: 'The Ruins of Warsaw' they are descibed as 'Mausers'. I added two and two... Page 13 plus (?)

[3catcircus]

Besides antiquated kit in modern times, it's also extremely useful for alternate history WW2, Vietnam, Korea, British Malay, etc. past skirmish games.

More important than the kit - how about the music? One can't deny that wars are culturally defined in part by the music of the times (or that the time produces the music.) Likewise the food. Hawaii wouldn't know spam without war, for example ...

[Matt Wiser]

Just remember: if it can still kill you, it's not obsolete. A well placed 76-mm from an Easy Eight Sherman or an 85-mm from a T-34/85 can still ruin your day.

[Brit]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Just remember: if it can still kill you, it's not obsolete.

Going way back...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_...rmoryLeeds.JPG
Seems the collection at Leeds, UK, opened in 1995 so late for the T2K period but it, or similar, must be elsewhere...

Are there any (large) collections of ACW period weapons 'that work' in US collections / museums? Even if the musket isn't working the bayonet would.
Maybe a re-enactment society could stay together for self-protection?

This could make a different Militia / Local Defence unit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atholl_Highlanders
"Although it has no official military role, this hand-picked body of local men are armed with Lee Metford rifles, and the regiment includes a pipe band".