Out of Mothballs: Obsolescent Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[pmulcahy11b]

OK, I've done some more research and rewritten the X1 entry. It's here:
http://www.pmulcahy.com/tracked_lcv/brazilian_tlcv.htm

It has corrections, new info and a new X1 subtype.

[Raellus]

Although not weapons, per se, horses still apparently have a military application, as far as the Russian army is concerned.

https://defence-blog.com/russia-send...of%20Bashkiria.

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[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

3. The gun's actually an EC-90 (the same as on the EE-9 Cascavel), which is a license-built Cockerill, but was unable to fire APFSDS because of the muzzle brake.

Snap-shot comment on this: The EC-90 gun, like the French 90 mm D-921, is a low-pressure gun. So APFSDS is not an option anyway. The gun doesn't have the V(0) to make this a viable projectile option. HEAT remains the only anti-tank or anti-armor option.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

Snap-shot comment on this: The EC-90 gun, like the French 90 mm D-921, is a low-pressure gun. So APFSDS is not an option anyway. The gun doesn't have the V(0) to make this a viable projectile option. HEAT remains the only anti-tank or anti-armor option.

There is picture on a page I cruised into (I'll find it and edit -- but its nearly dinner for the guys right now) where there are some Brazilian officers holding an APFSDS round for an EC-90 gun. But the text of the article does describe EC-90 APFSDS as being no more effective than HEAT upon striking the target.

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldw...a2-carcara.php

[Vespers War]

APFSDS for the EC-90 was being looked at in case the vehicles went up against opponents who had been provided with ERA. Even without APFSDS being any more effective than HEAT against steel, early ERA was only effective against HEAT and not against kinetic penetrators, so a vehicle with Kontakt-1 might be immune to an EC-90 HEAT shell but get penetrated by a (on paper) weaker APFSDS shell. Brazil eventually gave up on its development, probably because of the odds of that happening went way down after the breakup of the USSR.

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

There is picture on a page I cruised into (I'll find it and edit -- but its nearly dinner for the guys right now) where there are some Brazilian officers holding an APFSDS round for an EC-90 gun. But the text of the article does describe EC-90 APFSDS as being no more effective than HEAT upon striking the target.

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldw...a2-carcara.php

Here is the text that explains the ammo question for the EC-90 in the article you linked. The encyclopedia generally does good work, in my personal opinion.

ontrary to common statements, the X1A2 was thus not able to fire APFSDS rounds in the configuration it used at the time. Not only were they not available at the time when the X1A2 was in service, the development of the APFSDS round was never completed by Engesa. It also did not have a muzzle brake that would support the APFSDS round. Since neither requirements were met, the X1A2 never used APFSDS in its loadout. In addition, by the time the APFSDS round could have been ready, interest had already completely shifted to the M41C and the main battle tank projects like the Osorio and Tamoyo.

The X1A2 had access to HEAT, High Explosive Squash Head (HESH), and High Explosive (HE) rounds. The HEAT round was meant for anti-armor purposes and was the X1’s anti-tank round. The HESH round was mainly meant for bunkers, walls and light vehicles, and not as ‘anti-armor’ ammunition. The HE round was used as a general purpose support round. The X1A2 also had access to a white phosphorus smoke round and a HEAT practice round.

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

APFSDS for the EC-90 was being looked at in case the vehicles went up against opponents who had been provided with ERA. Even without APFSDS being any more effective than HEAT against steel, early ERA was only effective against HEAT and not against kinetic penetrators, so a vehicle with Kontakt-1 might be immune to an EC-90 HEAT shell but get penetrated by a (on paper) weaker APFSDS shell. Brazil eventually gave up on its development, probably because of the odds of that happening went way down after the breakup of the USSR.

As quoted above, there was development going on, but the tank lacked the necessary configuration (muzzle break) in addition to the pure development necessary. The USSR breaking up, did not have much influence on Brazil in that regard. However, by the time the project could have concluded, Brazil was looking into buying the M41C as a replacement and procure a true MBT from an indigenous design, either Osorio or Tamoyo.

[Raellus]

A column of Russian ZIS-151 trucks, manufactured between 1948-158, has been filmed by a Ukrainian drone whilst moving towards the front line.

https://truck-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/ussr/ZIL-151.php

I wonder when we're going to start seeing Lend-Lease Studebakers.

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[Raellus]

...entered production in 1943.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...h=4ab6522a7c50

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[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Raellus

A column of Russian ZIS-151 trucks, manufactured between 1948-158, has been filmed by a Ukrainian drone whilst moving towards the front line.

https://truck-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/ussr/ZIL-151.php

I wonder when we're going to start seeing Lend-Lease Studebakers.

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The ZiS-151 (the factory it was only renamed ZiL after Stalin's death) was also the basis for the baseline BTR-152 as well as the ZIL-485 BAV-A, a Soviet knock-off of the DUKW. The 151 was built between 1948-1958, when it was replaced by the ZiL-157, which was also used as basis for the improved BTR-152V.

The Chinese copied it as the Jiefang CA-30 though and kept on building it until 1986. Both, the original ZiS-151 and the CA-30 are still in active service, though the former only in North Korea and the latter only in Bangladesh. During the Twilight War, these would see massive service on both sides of the Soviet-Chinese theater of war and probably all across Asia and Europe.

Additionally, the Soviets could restart the production line, should they want to. Not a lot is needed.

[Raellus]

Based on the M24 Chaffee light tank first introduced in 1944, the NM-116 Panserjager was used by Norwegian forces until 1993, IRL. There's a good chance that, had the Cold War continued, it would have still been in use when the Twilight War started.

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldw...6-panserjager/

Thanks to Tegyrius for apprising me of this thing's existence. He also suggested that one or two NM-116 Panserjagers could have ended up in Poland after having been appropriated by US Marines fighting in Norway.

And the remarkable Paul M already has it stat'ed up for v2.2.

https://www.pmulcahy.com/tracked_lcv/norwegian_tlcv.htm

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[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Based on the M24 Chaffee light tank first introduced in 1944, the NM-116 Panserjager was used by Norwegian forces until 1993, IRL. There's a good chance that, had the Cold War continued, it would have still been in use when the Twilight War started.

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldw...6-panserjager/

Thanks to Tegyrius for apprising me of this thing's existence. He also suggested that one or two NM-116 Panserjagers could have ended up in Poland after having been appropriated by US Marines fighting in Norway.

And the remarkable Paul M already has it stat'ed up for v2.2.

https://www.pmulcahy.com/tracked_lcv/norwegian_tlcv.htm

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The Chaffee itself remained in service with Uruguay until 2019(!). They received 17 tanks in 1958 from American stock in South Korea, which were organized into three platoons of five tanks each plus a command section of two tanks. One of the command section tanks was fitted with a dozer blade. In the 1980s the worn-out engines were replaced by Saab-Scania DN11, which had the same horsepower output as the Twin Cadillac but were available on the commercial market and had parts readily available. They also had their .30-06 M1919A4 rebored to 7.62x51mm NATO around the same time, and some other upgrades like modern radio equipment and updated ammo racks. They were withdrawn from combat units in December 2018 (replaced by M41C Walker Bulldogs sold to Uruguay by Brazil) and officially retired in July 2019.

Chile "only" kept their Chaffees in service until 2006. They wanted to upgrade them to NM-116 standard, but an embargo on providing weapons to the Pinochet regime prevented Norway from upgrading Chile's tanks. Instead, they got a (legal) engine upgrade, replacing the 220 horsepower Twin Cadillac with the 275 horsepower 6V53T from the M113. The upgrade made the tanks slightly heavier but also slightly faster. Israel agreed to supply weapons to Chile in defiance of the embargo, providing a combination of M-51 Shermans fitted with 105mm F1 cannon, M-50 Shermans with 60mm IMI-OTO HVMS guns, and enough additional HVMS guns to replace the worn-out 75mm guns on all 21 of the M24 tanks. All-up weight allegedly increased to 22 tons, which brought the tank's speed back down to its original 56 km/h, but the 60mm HVMS could allegedly penetrate as much armor as the 105mm L7, allowing the little Chaffee to punch well above its weight, very much an eggshell with a sledgehammer. They would be replaced by AMX-30B1 tanks in 2006.

[Vespers War]

The v2 Soviet Vehicle Guide mentions the M4 Sherman's continued service in Yugoslavia, but during its historical breakup both M18 Hellcat and M36 Jackson tank destroyers saw combat use. Both vehicles were serving with the TOs (Territorial Forces) of Yugoslavia's constituent Republics rather than the main army, but would likely show up in Twilight War scenarios (as would the M4s that had been assigned to Jackson units as driver trainers). Their role had shifted over time from anti-armor use to infantry fire support, and the Hellcat's ammo loads reflected that - in the 1950s, they carried 15 HE, 18 AP, and 12 HVAP rounds. In 1990, the standard load was 23 HE, 4 AP, and 18 HEAT rounds.

When Serbia finally retired them in 2005, there were still 203 in service. At least some had their 450 hp Ford GAA gasoline engines replaced by 500 hp diesels, either late V-2 from the T-34 or the V-55 from the T-55. I've seen photographs of one with a V-55, and it's possible the V-2 reports are confusion with Yugoslavia's efforts to re-engine their Shermans, but it's also possible they used both engines in Jackson upgrades.

Edit: I misread my source. Most of the Yugoslavian Jacksons were M36, built on the M10A1 hull, and around 50 or so were M36B1 on an M4A3 hull.

[castlebravo92]

The Greeks also apparently fielded ~200 M-24s until around 1995.

[Vespers War]

A couple other potential oldies that I'm not sure have been mentioned in the thread and that could pop up in the European Theater of the Twilight War:

The T-10 heavy tank wasn't withdrawn from Russian reserves until 1996.

The utterly terrible Charioteer left Finnish service as a training tank in 1980, but they kept 15 in storage until 2007. Charioteer is basically a Cromwell with the 84mm QF 20 pounder fitted into a turret with no more than 30mm of armor.

Switzerland's Panzer 61 remained in second-line service until enough Panzer 87 had been manufactured to replace them in 1994.

And since I brought them up, stats for Yugoslavia's ex-American tank destroyers:

M18 Hellcat
This vehicle was built for speed first, firepower second, and protection not at all.

Fire Control: +1
Armament: 76mm M1 L/52 (turret, 45 rds), 12.7mm M2HB (ring mount, 800 rds)
Fuel Type: G, A
Veh Wt: 17 tonnes
Crew: 5 (commander, loader, gunner, driver, assistant driver)
Mnt: 6
Night Vision: Headlights
Tr Mov: 249/174
Com Mov: 41/29
Fuel Cap: 620
Fuel Cons: 300
Config: Veh
Susp: T: 2
HF: 5
HS: 4
HR: 4
TF: 8
TS: 4
TR: 4

76.2mm M1 L/52
Rng: 400 Rld: 1
HE: C:7 B:19 Pen 4C
AP: Dam 17 Pen 20/18/15/10
HVAP: Dam 17 Pen 35/30/26/17


M36 Jackson
The biggest of the United States' WW2-era tank destroyers, fitted with the 90mm gun that would later see use on Pershing and Patton tanks, built on either an M10A1 tank destroyer hull (M36) or an M4A3 Sherman tank hull (M36B1). The Sherman hulls had an extra bow machine gun. Since Yugoslavia had both these and some Patton tanks in service, they developed new 90mm HE and HEAT rounds in the late 1960s and early 1970s. As far as I'm aware, no new AP round was introduced. There were roughly 7 M36 for every 1 M36B1 in Yugoslavian service. By the time of the Twilight War, they had switched to diesel fuel instead of gasoline.

Fire Control: +1
Armament: 90mm M3 L/53 (turret, 47 rds), 12.7mm M2HB (pintle, 1000 rds), 7.62mm M1919A4 (bow, 2000 rds, M36B1 only)
Fuel Type: G, A
Veh Wt: 29 tonnes
Crew: 5 (commander, loader, gunner, driver, assistant driver)
Mnt: 10
Night Vision: Headlights
Tr Mov: 118/71
Com Mov: 19/12
Fuel Cap: 727
Fuel Cons: 500
Config: Veh
Susp: T: 2
(M36 / M36B1)
HF: 20 / 18
HS: 7 / 11
HR: 7 / 11
TF: 23
TS: 10
TR: 10

90mm M3 L/53
Rng: 410 Rld: 1
HE: C:10 B:22 Pen 7C
AP: Dam 20 Pen 42/36/31/20
HVAP: Dam 20 Pen 71/62/53/34

1970s upgraded rounds:
M67 HE: C:12 B:24 Pen 7C
M74 HEAT: C:8 B:20 Pen 65C

[Eukie]

Hello!

I’m working on my own 1989 Cold War Gone Hot scenario, and to mirror some Soviet army lists with T-10Ms and IS-3Ms, I’m looking for fun, weird, old stuff to pull out of storage for the other nations, including the US. This forum and this thread specifically has been very useful, mentioning for example some 50 M60A2 Starships on POMCUS circa 1990. However, I’m wondering whether anyone knows how long the M103 Heavy Tanks stick around? According to Osprey’s M103 Heavy Tank 1950-1974 they were placed in storage at Yermo Annex, Barstow California, and Albany, Georgia, but I’ve found absolutely nothing on how many or how long they were in storage and whether they could plausibly be reactivated as War Materiel Reserve for WWIII in Europe. Does anyone have more information?

Thank you for your time.

[Raellus]

Welcome, Eukie!

I can't find any mention of the existing M103 Heavy Tanks past retirement in 1972. Apparently, 10 reside in museums here and there, but that's it.

Interestingly, the M103 never received an official nickname like other American MBTs, nor did they ever set tread outside of the USA.

Given the 1989 date of your Cold-War-gone-hot scenario, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the the bulk of the M103 were still in storage in some USMC depot when WW3 started.

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[Eukie]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Welcome, Eukie!
Given the 1989 date of your Cold-War-gone-hot scenario, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the the bulk of the M103 were still in storage in some USMC depot when WW3 started.

Thanks! I was so very excited when I realised the US still had the 120 mm shells on book by 1993-1994-ish. Now to find a unit to stick them with...

In return, I offer the observation that while the M247 Sgt. York never entered official, army service, they built like 50 of them and they entered navy service as radar tracking systems (and air-to-ground targets) and many were stationed in Dixie Valley, Nevada. Several of them actually remain there to this day, since it hasn't been economical to retrieve them. The US Army still had the ammo on book circa 1993-1994, so in a Cold War Gone Hot scenario starting in 1997 (which I understand is what 1st edition Twilight: 2000 has), it's entirely possible the Sgt. York could be pressed into service.

It wasn't flawless, but by the time it was cancelled it was functional and while it couldn't keep up with Abrams and Bradley, any scenario that has the US deploy a lot of M60s and NatGuard M48s into combat could potentially have the Sgt. York make a glorious return. I like to imagine there's a Marine brigade/division that gets a Sgt. York battery operated by the Navy somewhere in WWIII.

The major problems it's going to have is a lack of spare parts, since it never entered widespread service, and the never-fixed problem of its hydraulics failing. A very annoying problem that speaks to the immaturity of the system when it was cancelled, but it'd hardly be the worst system that has entered service in the desperation of wartime.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Welcome, Eukie!

I can't find any mention of the existing M103 Heavy Tanks past retirement in 1972. Apparently, 10 reside in museums here and there, but that's it.

Interestingly, the M103 never received an official nickname like other American MBTs, nor did they ever set tread outside of the USA.

Given the 1989 date of your Cold-War-gone-hot scenario, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the the bulk of the M103 were still in storage in some USMC depot when WW3 started.

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I've seen at least 2 M103s parked at VFW halls around Ohio before 1990. I remember having to look them up in a book, as they didn't look like exactly like M48/M60s.

[Homer]

The Patton Museum at Fort Knox had an extensive collection of AFVs, including foreign made examples either captured or purchased for testing. Some were better runners than others. They kept the overflow in motor pool lots and some sheds off of main range road and some equipment in the LST building.

Not sure what the full collection was, but there were runners of the chieftain, s-tank, leo I, bmp-1, t-55, t-34/85, m60a2, and mtlb among others. There was an m103 (plus one in Radcliff on static display), centurion, AMX-10, PT-76, centauro, and a number of one off test articles as well. The museum had various tigers, panthers, ha-go, chi-ha, and a T-72 Assad Babil. Some could crank and move onto the outdoor pads for PMCS. The only ones I’m pretty sure didn’t run were the cut away Tiger and the crushed ha-go. To throw something fun at the players they had a Mk IV.

Could be a way to introduce a unique vehicle into play. I believe that the gs maintenance unit for the armor school produced unavailable parts from stock.

[Vespers War]

The March-April 1981 issue of the Field Artillery Journal mentions in passing that turretless M103s were used as mobile targets in the HELBAT (Human Engineering Laboratory Battalion Artillery Test) tests of laser designators. No live ammo was used in those tests, so the hulls would have survived, and it shows at least some were in running condition in the late 70s or extremely early 80s. I haven't found any later references to the M103 other than museum pieces.

[Homer]

I think most M103s, other than what was in a museum, ended their lives as range targets. There were some at Peason Ridge and on the Mk 19 range at fort polk serving as artillery or hard targets in the 1990s.

[Raellus]

Does it count if the equipment was never mothballed? Until I read the second article linked below, I was unaware that the Russians are currently using a submarine rescue ship that entered service in 1915! That's not a typo.

It was named the Volkhov before the Russian Revolution.

https://www.twz.com/russias-110-year...a-wreck-report

It seems that reports of the Kommuna's demise were greatly exaggerated.

https://www.twz.com/news-features/ru...claimed-strike

It looks like the Kommuna could make a pretty cool floating pirate base in T2k.

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[Vespers War]

I'd first heard about the ship when she was involved in salvaging Moskva after that ship's involuntary conversion to reef. Kommuna originally served as both a submarine rescue ship (attempting to raise sunken submarines before the crew perished) and as a tender, carrying 10 torpedoes, 50 tons of fuel, and 60 submariners for resupply of submarines at sea. Once submarines became too large for her to lift, she was reclassified as a salvage ship.

It was mothballed in the past and may not have been available for a Twilight scenario. In 1984 the ship was supposed to be transferred to the Russian Academy of Sciences. That didn't happen, she was laid up and looted, and I don't think she re-entered service until 1999 at the same time she was reclassified back to "rescue ship" instead of a "salvage ship," with modernized rescue equipment being added.

[CraigD6er]

Going back just a bit further in time than the WW2 tanks, or even the Russian sub rescue vessel, the Ukrainians are now using caltrops!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX-0518ar5M
Admittedly the Chinese versions of these are dropped by drone rather than thrown by hand, but the tyres on Russian trucks are shredded just the same. When tracked vehicles are becoming a rarity on the battlefield, and soft skin 'guntrucks' are the best some units can muster, then these seem to work just as well now as in the past.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by CraigD6er

Going back just a bit further in time than the WW2 tanks, or even the Russian sub rescue vessel, the Ukrainians are now using caltrops! Admittedly the Chinese versions of these are dropped by drone rather than thrown by hand, but the tyres on Russian trucks are shredded just the same. When tracked vehicles are becoming a rarity on the battlefield, and soft skin 'guntrucks' are the best some units can muster, then these seem to work just as well now as in the past.

You beat me to the punch! Good points, and I might add that caltrops were originally conceived as an area denial weapon for use against horse-mounted cavalry. In T2k, horse cav has made a comeback, so caltrops would also continue to maintain their original raison d'etre.

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[Raellus]

I wonder if anyone would bother trying to use balloons as bomb delivery vehicles during the Twilight War, after aircraft are grounded by lack of fuel and/or spare parts. The concept goes back at least to the 1940s. Both the British and the Japanese used balloons to deliver bombs and incendiary devices during World War II.

https://www.twz.com/news-features/uk...against-russia

Fitted with GPS to add a modicum of predictability and accuracy, Russian and Ukrainian balloon bombs are a little more high tech than their progenitors.

We also have this thread, dedicated to other tactical military uses for balloons (as observation platforms, AA obstacles, etc.):

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....light=balloons

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[Raellus]

Maybe it's not quite old enough for this thread, but the Ferret armored car (1952- ) would be fairly long-in-the-tooth come 2000. As of 2023, at least a few were in active service with Ukrainian forces. According to Wikipedia, at least one of Ukraine's Ferret armored cars was privately purchased.

Does anyone know from whom Ukraine acquired the rest of its Ferrets?

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[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Maybe it's not quite old enough for this thread, but the Ferret armored car (1952- ) would be fairly long-in-the-tooth come 2000. As of 2023, at least a few were in active service with Ukrainian forces. According to Wikipedia, at least one of Ukraine's Ferret armored cars was privately purchased.

Does anyone know from whom Ukraine acquired the rest of its Ferrets?

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Tanks-Alot sold 6 Ferrets to Ukraine, out of a total of 120 vehicles. The remainder were a mix of Spartan, Samaritan, Sultan, Snatch, and Pinzgauer Vector.

[Raellus]

Russia is pulling M46 howitzers (designed in the 1940s and manufactured in the '50s) out of storage and sending them to the front lines in Ukraine. They're so old that Russia hasn't made the 130mm ammunition that the guns use for quite some time- the Russians have to import ammo from North Korea and Iran.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...korean-shells/

Does anyone know when the Russians/Soviets stopped making 130mm ammunition IRL?

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