Gun Trucks

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Webstral

If one has an M60, does it belong on a gun truck or with a platoon of dismounts? Heavier weapons, like the M2HB, almost certainly have to be mounted on a vehicle. Of course, machine guns aren't exactly as common as hunting rifles. Only so many are going to be confronted with this choice. Still, when I think about the Vermont State Guard and the Granite Brigade (NH), these are organizations with access to cargo trucks, homemade armor, and machine guns. Do the M60s and 60mm mortars go on trucks or with the dismounts?

A couple of the color plates in the Osprey book show M60Ds (helicoper door guns with spade grips and ring sights intead of a butt-stock and a pistol grip) mounted on gun trucks. It seems to me that, with very few aircraft still airworthy, this would be a natural use for old door guns.

It's almost ridiculous how many MGs some of those Vietnam-era gun trucks carried. We're talking 3-5 M2HBs and 2-4 M-60s per truck, in some instances. One even had two 7.62mm Miniguns! Most of them carried an M-79 too. I was surprised that none of the images in the book show AGLs as a gun truck weapon. I know that they were widely used on PBRs by the Brown Water Navy. I wonder why they never caught on as gun truck weapons.

[Legbreaker]

Coax machineguns from knocked out AFVs would be useful on trucks also. The added bulk of makeshift butts and trigger mechanisms wouldn't matter that much when mounted.
You might also see coax weapons on tripods and used as SFMG in the indirect role. It's possible they could even be used on trolleys - imagine a pram reworked to carry a machinegun instead of a baby....

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Do the M60s and 60mm mortars go on trucks or with the dismounts?

A quick WWII reference: some US units used Willy's jeeps fitted with 60mm mortars in the bed. They could be fired from there are dismounted. If the light jeep could safely fire a 60mm from it's bed, I'd say just about any military four+ wheel vehicles (and some civilian ones) could as well.

(at most you might need a single layer of sandbags under the mortar to absorb the recoil and protect the body).

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

http://news.webshots.com/album/124599660fVnKRb

http://spruebender.net/forum2/index.php?topic=585.0

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=869048

http://www.stenvalls.com/shop/?cat_id=203

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?...d=54640&page=1

Nice set of links... the last one with the quad in the hummer.. I wonder where they managed to get the hummer from? hummmmmmmmmmmm

FB

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Would individual divisions have their own organic long-range transport units or would such line haul convoys be the specialty of Corps HQs?

By the book, divisions have trucks to distribute supplies to their subordinate units, and to pick up supplies from Army dumps. Army HQs have units to bring supplies forward to dumps from the rear. Corps HQs aren't supposed to run supplies, they plan battles. At least, that's how I understand things in the US Army.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Raellus

A couple of the color plates in the Osprey book show M60Ds (helicoper door guns with spade grips and ring sights intead of a butt-stock and a pistol grip) mounted on gun trucks. It seems to me that, with very few aircraft still airworthy, this would be a natural use for old door guns.

It's almost ridiculous how many MGs some of those Vietnam-era gun trucks carried. We're talking 3-5 M2HBs and 2-4 M-60s per truck, in some instances. One even had two 7.62mm Miniguns! Most of them carried an M-79 too. I was surprised that none of the images in the book show AGLs as a gun truck weapon. I know that they were widely used on PBRs by the Brown Water Navy. I wonder why they never caught on as gun truck weapons.

Speaking for the Vietnam-era AGLs, it was an experimental Honeywell design that was hand-cranked. The first real AGL is the XM-174 by Aerojet. Both designs used either a 12rd drum or a 50rd box and fired standard 40mm grenades (the barrel on the XM-174 is the same one fitted to a M-79).

GIs also took the time to strip any crashed gunships and stripped them of their M-75 40mm (Cobra) and the M-5 40mm (UH-1 gunships).

There is a photo in the national archieves that shows one gun truck fitted with no less than six 40mm AGLs!

There are also pics of twin M-60 mounts mounted on each corner of the truck bed.

Another favorite mounted on some gun trucks was the E8 35mm 16-tube CS gas grenade launcher, I've seen at least three pics that shows at least two of these units mounted.

If you have a chance to check out a copy of Shelby's Vietnam Order of Battle (pg 303), there is an great pic of a M-151 jeep, protected by sandbags and armed with a M-134 7.62mm minigun for the passenger and a Honeywell handcranked GL on a pedestal mount!

[95th Rifleman]

Re-purposing aviation weapons is the logical choice for things like gun trucks and static positions aswell. On Okinawa the japanese did the same with MG's taken from wrecked aircraft.

In a game I ran the group rigged up 27mm Tornado cannons to defend a German airfield from marauders.

[bobcat]

anti aircraft guns are also good for gun trucks. in iraq one of the local militias had a russian 37mm twin barrel AA gun mounted on the back of a bongo truck.

i wonder if one could mount a 25mm bushmaster from a bradley?

[WallShadow]

Anyone with armorer expertise want to weigh in on converting an ex-A-10's 30mm gatling into a crew served surface or vehicle mounted weapon?

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

Anyone with armorer expertise want to weigh in on converting an ex-A-10's 30mm gatling into a crew served surface or vehicle mounted weapon?

I saw one unmounted at the Davis-Monthan air show year before last. On its own (with its ammo feed and giant drum mag), it's nearly as long as most trucks. The A-10 noticeably slows when firing it. I just don't see it being a viable ground vehicle-mounted weapon unless it's somehow mounted on an MBT chasis.

[Panther Al]

yeah - the GAU-8 is something that just isn't doable short of a very heavy tracked chassis. Even a Hemmit wouldn't be able to take the recoil forces generated by the cannon.

[ArmySGT.]

Maybe hanging out the back of a dump truck?

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I saw one unmounted at the Davis-Monthan air show year before last. On its own (with its ammo feed and giant drum mag), it's nearly as long as most trucks. The A-10 noticeably slows when firing it. I just don't see it being a viable ground vehicle-mounted weapon unless it's somehow mounted on an MBT chasis.

I have this image now of an Abrahms variant carrying one of those things.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

I have this image now of an Abrahms variant carrying one of those things.

I now have an image of a VW Bug carrying one of those things
That would be like Star Cruiser Yamato's Wave Motion Gun, or something from Wiley Coyote Laboratories, Inc.

Could one of the barrels be separated out and a breach mechanism machined to make it an anti-armor rifle, like an upscaled Barrett?

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I saw one unmounted at the Davis-Monthan air show year before last. On its own (with its ammo feed and giant drum mag), it's nearly as long as most trucks. The A-10 noticeably slows when firing it. I just don't see it being a viable ground vehicle-mounted weapon unless it's somehow mounted on an MBT chasis.

Huh. Well, there's a use for all those surplus Leopard hulls. Ground mounts for Goalkeeper platforms. But I think we already did that thread.

Originally Posted by WallShadow

Could one of the barrels be separated out and a breach mechanism machined to make it an anti-armor rifle, like an upscaled Barrett?

I think they call that the Mk.44 Bushmaster II.

- C.

[Sanjuro]

Maybe hanging out the back of a dump truck?

I like that idea... anything you shoot at, you are simultaneously running away from very fast, using the recoil for propulsion!

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by bobcat

anti aircraft guns are also good for gun trucks. in iraq one of the local militias had a russian 37mm twin barrel AA gun mounted on the back of a bongo truck.

i wonder if one could mount a 25mm bushmaster from a bradley?

This is actually quite doable- not easy mind, but I would be shocked if more than a few trucks from humvee's on up sporting such a mod in the twilight war.

[natehale1971]

During World War Two, didn't the German's put the 88 on truck beds? My grandfather told me how damn deadly the 88s were, and that they had been really, really hated by infantry and tankers alike.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

During World War Two, didn't the German's put the 88 on truck beds? My grandfather told me how damn deadly the 88s were, and that they had been really, really hated by infantry and tankers alike.

Heavy half-tracks, yes, but not trucks. The 88 produces one big jolt of recoil at a time, though, not like the GAU-8 which produces heavy sustained recoil depending on the burst length.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Heavy half-tracks, yes, but not trucks. The 88 produces one big jolt of recoil at a time, though, not like the GAU-8 that has sustained recoil depending on the burst length.

the US used a few hundred halftracks with 75mm guns (initially in the AT role, but later for infantry support) and 105mm howitzers.

The heaviest guns used in a 'portee' mount (non-permanently mounted in the truck's bed rather than towed) I think were 6-pdrs (57mm) AT guns.

A step beyond this was something like the Deacon, an armored truck with a permanent gun in the bed.

http://www.brindale.co.uk/ach/prv_si...les/deacon.htm

[Graebarde]

I love gun trucks!!! With that comment... I continue.

In Nam, the first group to implement gun trucks did so with salvage. The companies had only so many machineguns, either M2 or M60, and most of them were allocated to perimeter defense at the base camp... hence the group I'm familiar with (my NCOIC at Eustis was one of the gun truckers) hauled between An Khe and CRB IIRC. The salvage they hauled back to depot, weapons etc, were 'picked over' by the haulers and weapons rebuilt for them by their unit armorers.. totally off the books... The mini's show were slavaged off downed gunships along the highway on a return trip.. and possession was not questions tooooooooo much. LOTS of the firepower came from a/c salvage. BTW, MOST of the gun trucks were five tonners, as they found dueces were too light for the loads they carried when up-armored.

As Dragon said, the AGL were a rare item over all. Even with the PBRs they were a rare sight in '69 from my observation (and failing memory).

One thing that made the gun trucks real effective was when an ADA quad fifty battery was attached to them. The gunners were ADA, the rest of the truck crew from the owing company.

Note that the guns usually traveled in the middle of the convoy so they could respond better to the front or back of the convoy as needed. Just some ramblin memories on the subject.

I'm glad to see the higher ups FINALLY learned a lesson and have mission built gun trucks now.. though GI ingenuiety is still at work... when the highers allow it...

FB

[Graebarde]

a note on tha Hawgs.. That aircraft is probably the ONLY aircraft built around the gun system ever produced, unlike building the plane and then saying.. gee it needs guns..

Those are awesome birds, purpose built to do a specific job, and they do a J.O.B. on target too..

No way I can see a ground mobile mount for one happening... but then as I said elsewhere, never underestimate GI ingenuity.

FB

[atiff]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

During World War Two, didn't the German's put the 88 on truck beds? My grandfather told me how damn deadly the 88s were, and that they had been really, really hated by infantry and tankers alike.

Not sure about the Germans, but in WWII (and WWI) the Italians put 75mm and 90mm AA guns on portee mounts, and use them in dual AT/AA roles.

Wiki link of matching info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian...raft_artillery

[95th Rifleman]

Germans preferred the 20mm for AA use, they built allot of mobile Flakpanzers and where quite effective, just they never had enough. The Wirbelwind was the best of breed.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

a note on tha Hawgs.. That aircraft is probably the ONLY aircraft built around the gun system ever produced, unlike building the plane and then saying.. gee it needs guns..

Dunno, I think the Germans had something in WWI with a 77mm gun, but I can't track anything down just now.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I've skimmed through the thread; am I reading earlier posts right? is it possible to mount an M113 hull on a truck chassis?

[copeab]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I've skimmed through the thread; am I reading earlier posts right? is it possible to mount an M113 hull on a truck chassis?

It's more along the lines of "secure it to the flatbed cargo area" than an M113 with wheels.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by copeab

It's more along the lines of "secure it to the flatbed cargo area" than an M113 with wheels.

Correct. They'd strip the engine, transmission, track-related gear from the M113 and then strap it down to the bed of a 5-ton with steel cables. The comms system was usually left intact for the gun crew to use.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Correct. They'd strip the engine, transmission, track-related gear from the M113 and then strap it down to the bed of a 5-ton with steel cables. The comms system was usually left intact for the gun crew to use.

Although the idea of an M-113 with a "convertible" Christie suspension suddenly intrigues me ...

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

a note on tha Hawgs.. That aircraft is probably the ONLY aircraft built around the gun system ever produced, unlike building the plane and then saying.. gee it needs guns..

Those are awesome birds, purpose built to do a specific job, and they do a J.O.B. on target too..

No way I can see a ground mobile mount for one happening... but then as I said elsewhere, never underestimate GI ingenuity.

FB

You know, the A-10 is probably the only time the developmental process actually worked the way it is supposed to.

A. Find a need that can't be filled with an existing item.
Ground Attack with enough firepower to kill scores of heavy tanks, and armoured/rugged enough to take a beating while doing it.
B. Find the right balance between cheap and exactly what is needed to address the issue.
Missiles are perfect for tank busting: Accurate, and very very effective. But, and this is where the process hit it out of the park, they are expensive. There was no way the Air Force could justify the building of war stocks of sufficient number of missiles - too darn expensive. Also, they knew that in a WW3 scenario, there wouldn't be the time to ramp up production of high tech items in the quantities needed. But, existing cannon, while cheap on ammo, and easy on maintenance, wasn't quite powerful enough. So, they made a new one, using every lesson learned on gun design. The GAU-8 firing DU ammo. More than able to kill any tank out there from the air, and cheap cheap cheap to use.
C. Once A and B are done, *then* build the airplane around the solution for the first problem, while addressing the last one.
The A-10 hit this on the head: The plane was designed around both the gun and its ammo, as well as maximum protection for the pilot and control surfaces.

In the end, you have a plane that is so freaking good at its job, and relatively cheap to operate, the Air Force (and it has tried, and tried hard) can't kill the thing.

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

Germans preferred the 20mm for AA use, they built allot of mobile Flakpanzers and where quite effective, just they never had enough. The Wirbelwind was the best of breed.

While the *Army* loved the 20, both in its guise as the FlAK 38 and FlAK 38 (V) versions, it was more because it was a great DP weapon for dealing with infantry attacks. As an AA weapon, it left a bit to be desired. The Luftwaffe FlAK corps on the other hand, felt the FlAK 43 (37mm) was as small as they could go and still be effective. In fact, at the end of the war they was getting ready to start to introduce a 55mm Weapon, that to be quite honest, was about perfect for battlefield AA as well as Light(ish) GP AA units. As good as the gun was, and it was very very good, the mount was even better. Both the US and the Brits seriously thought about going with a similar weapon, and the soviets did with the 57mm, but the Jet age put paid to medium to heavy AA guns, and most everyone placed the 55 in the medium range unlike the Germans.

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Dunno, I think the Germans had something in WWI with a 77mm gun, but I can't track anything down just now.

It was WW2, and it was the Hs129B1 if I recall. Started life as a stock Hs129 (The A-10 of its day when mounted with a mix of 30mm cannon and MG's) and placed a magazine fed 7.5cm KwK40 gun from a Panzer IV where the cannons used to be. Insanely good at busting the heaviest tanks (as well as small warships), pilots loved it till the soviets twigged on, and started operating so that anything with a barrel that long and big in the air becomes the focus of all fighters in the area.