Gun Trucks

[Brother in Arms]

I have reading a lot about Vietnam Era gun tucks which where generally built from M35A1, 5 ton cargo trucks of the time period. Many of these vehicles had interesting names brightly painted on there sides. Names like "Eve of Destruction" "uncle Meat" "Canned Heat" "The Assassin !" to name a few.

Often times these trucks where equipped with scavenged heavy infantry weapons like the 7.62 M60 machine gun, .50 M2HB as well as the GE 7.62 Vulcan Mini gun. Most trucks only had a few machine guns a one known as "Nancy" was eqquiped with a Anti-aircraft M2 qaud mount.

These trucks where equipped with improvised armor plated that was welded to the bed to give the gunners protection from ambushes and roadside bombs. Some of the trucks had stripped M113 armored personnel carriers sitting in the back of the bed to provide a fighting platform with overhead protection as well as turrets for the machine gunners.

Or course these trucks where laden with ammunition, spare tires ect. Many of them where armed/armored Maintenance trucks for the repair as well as defense of other trucks in the convoy.

Has anyone used anything like this in there twilight gaming sessions? I had a group of Czech troops driving around a stolen Ural that had a ZPU-2 in the back.

[kato13]

This was from someone's (graebarde's??) 5th division reorganization document


275 Cavalry (provisional)
‘MAD MAX’

The ADA battalion was in a like situation, due to lack of viable air threat, and missiles to place on target. Matthews, at the urging of the Air Cavalry commander, authorized the formation of what was referred to as the ‘Mad Max’ Battalion. It consists of highly modified HMMWVs, 5-ton cargo trucks, all converted into gun platforms reminiscent of the Vietnam era gun trucks, and a few home-brewed FAVs. Theses are located in the 275 Cavalry, a provisional unit based on one of the division attack helicopter battalions. These vehicles are ‘farmed out’ for convoy escort, base security, and fire support for light battalions as needed, or available. The number and types of vehicles in the battalion continues to grow, based on salvaged weapons and platforms, with a current battery of 23 vehicles.

Headquarters 12
Maintenance and Log 18
Vehicle crews 105

Mod 1 5-ton 1x 7.62 minigun crew 4-6 3x
‘GRIM REAPER’ ‘SHOGUN’ ‘ACE OF SPADES’

Mod 2 5-ton 1x 30mm chaingun crew 5-6 1x
‘UNDERTAKER’

Mod 3 5-ton LWB 4x 2.75� rocket pods crew 4-6 1x
‘SWOOSHER’

Mod 4 5-ton 1x AGL, 2x GPMG crew 5-7 3x
‘REBEL ROUSER’ ‘BABY CAKES’ ‘SPIRIT OF AMERICA’

Mod 5 5-ton 1x HMG, 1x AGL, 2x GPMG crew 6-8 1x
‘ROAD WARRIOR’

Mod 6 AVENGER 4x HELLFIRE, 1x 25mm chaingun crew 2-3 2x
‘HELL’S ANGEL’ ‘PAUL’S REVENGE’

Mod 7 HMMWV 1x AGL crew 2-3 1x
‘SCORPION’

Mod 8 HMMWV 1x HMG, 1x GPMG crew 4-5 2x
‘THUNDER’ ‘BLITZKREIG’

Mod 9 HMMWV 3x GPMG crew 4-5 3x
‘SALLY ANN’ ‘TWISTER’ ‘BALLS TO THE WALL’

Mod 10 FAV 1x AGL crew 2-3 1x
‘LITTLE THUNDER’

Mod 11 FAV 1x HMG crew 2-3 2x
‘DAISY CHAIN’ ‘SLEEPY JOE’

Mod 12 10-ton HEMET 1x 23mm quad, 1x 82mm ‘pickle’ mortar, 2x 30mm AGL, 2x GPMG
‘THE BEAST’ crew 10-12 1x

Mod 13 5-ton 2x 7.62 minigun, 1x AGL crew 6-8 1x
‘VALKYRIE’

Mod 14 5-ton M165 Vulcan ADA APC chassis crew 4-8 1x ‘BUZZ SAW’

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

Has anyone used anything like this in there twilight gaming sessions? I had a group of Czech troops driving around a stolen Ural that had a ZPU-2 in the back.

The PCs in my campaign just jacked a Polish KAMAZ 6x6 with a ZU-23-2 mounted in the bed. I'll try to post some pics sometime soon.

I think Targan's players had a HMET bristling with all kinds of weapons.

IRL, the Soviets employed various ad-hoc gun-trucks on convoy escort duty in Afghanistan.

BTW, B.I.A., I am a big fan of gun-trucks. Any particular books on the topic you could recommend for me?

[Brother in Arms]

Raellus

Technically I think both the Ural I mentioned and the KAMAZ these days would be called technicals (a sorry attempt at a pun) I think the difference between the two would be the ad hoc Armor that the gun trucks had.

I didn't know the soviets used them in Afghanistan....the US used gun trucks again in Iraq, For the same basic purpose as in RVN.

There are a ton of pages about gun trucks. In fact one group of fellows rebuilt a gun truck in new jersey and collegue of his wrote a book called

The Hard Ride
by James Lyles
Volume I
ISBN #971-93037-1-9

Its an exspensive but awesome book volume 2 should be out soon and it covers other gun vehicles. Like Jeeps 3/4 tons ect.

Check out the interweb though you wont be disappointed.

Brother in Arms

[Brother in Arms]

Oh I found this today though its more about technicals than gun trucks it shows some pretty crude armed vehicles in Somalia in the early 90's I think this is totally the sort of stuff that would show up in T2K

http://membres.lycos.fr/France40/techphot.html

[Matt Wiser]

There was a Challenge magazine article that dealt with gun trucks; they were M-113 chassis mounted on trucks mostly, but some were custom-built. Lots of machine guns and Mark-19 AGLs installed. One variant had an M-901 TOW vehicle mounted, so instant anti-armor vehicle.

One author called the Vietnam gun truckers "Mad Max" types, and one does wonder if the creators of that character had the gun truckers (the Aussies had them too in SVN) in mind. Incidentally, one of the gun truckers won a MOH, so be warned: those vehicles can be dangerous (along with their drivers).

Our group has one gun truck: a captured Ural 375 truck with a ZU-23 mounted in the back. The gun's on its second truck: it was previously mounted on another 375 before some marauders got lucky and RPG'd the truck's engine. That was their last bit of good luck, as they didn't survive the resulting fire-fight.

[O'Borg]

Probably some of the earliest Technicals were used by the LRDG :



This is a posed photo, but note the passenger side MG has no trigger - that's because its a Vickers K model salvaged from an aircraft and the firing mechanism is worked by pushing the home-made shoulder stock forwards.
The LRDG & later SAS liked the Lewis MG because its high rate of fire worked well when firing on the move. Plus the pan magazines fitted nicely into an army issue biscuit tin for easy storage

Not that the LRDG were the first people to modify their vehicles...

[Graebarde]

Was in a game where we (Chalkie and I) built the original BEAST. It was based on a Russian TEL (launcher vehicle for mid sized missiles) though don't recall the name designation. It had (IRRC) quaq 23, 82 Valsik (what we called the Pickel, from Valasic pickles) some PKs and at least on AGL. Heck the crew was numbered at least ten, with additional ride-a-longs. Campaign died before the vehicle did.

I went on to construct the list of gun trucks for my defunct OpFred campaign, though they were not directly avail to the PCs.

Grae

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

Technically I think both the Ural I mentioned and the KAMAZ these days would be called technicals (a sorry attempt at a pun) I think the difference between the two would be the ad hoc Armor that the gun trucks had.

So, armor is the difference between gun-truck and "technical"? My understanding is that a "technical" is just some sort of truck (civilian models, especially) where someone has plunked an HMG or light AA gun on the back. I think the term was coined in Somalia. If I remember correctly- and I probably don't- Somali militias came up with it (the name, not the concept).

It seems like a purely semantic distinction to me.

The KAMAZ I mentioned is purpose built as a SPAA gun. I'll post a pick or two this weekend some time.

Graebarde, I like your list. A "Flying Battalion" is a cool idea and one that I fully endorse.

May I suggest "Boudica" as a truck name, in honor of the photo O'Borg posted.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Graebarde, I like your list. A "Flying Battalion" is a cool idea and one that I fully endorse.

May I suggest "Boudica" as a truck name, in honor of the photo O'Borg posted.

I like that "Boudica". Armed to the gills, and crewed by women. Hummmm.. gives me ideas for some other names too, and female crew, or at least commanded by a female.

Thanks for jarring the rust.
Grae

[Mohoender]

Here is an MTVR currently used by US troops in Iraq. Up armored truck are coming out as soon as war starts.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Here is an MTVR currently used by US troops in Iraq. Up armored truck are coming out as soon as war starts.

Nice pic, Mo. That thing is a beast.

I'm not sure you woud see many armored trucks until later in the war when...

a.) Dedicated AFVs became rare and replacements ceased to appear

b.) The front become more fluid and lines of supply became more exposed

Armored and "gun" trucks tend to appear when supply lines are threatened and supply convoys require armed escorts, hence the historical precendents of American involvement in Vietnam and Iraq and American and Soviet involvement in Afghanistan.

[Mohoender]

The main advantage that you get from armored truck is that they are often cheap and easy to make if not always that efficient. Nevertheless, when that is the best you have, you do with it, just look at the Haganah before and at the time of Israel's creation.

They were using sandwich armored truck that were made from two thin metal sheets with plywood in between. I'm not sure if that would still be efficient today but that might deserve some thought. Any idea?

Here is a picture of sandwich truck, the only one I found.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

The main advantage that you get from armored truck is that they are often cheap and easy to make if not always that efficient. Nevertheless, when that is the best you have, you do with it, just look at the Haganah before and at the time of Israel's creation.

They were using sandwich armored truck that were made from two thin metal sheets with plywood in between. I'm not sure if that would still be efficient today but that might deserve some thought. Any idea?

Here is a picture of sandwich truck, the only one I found.

In my village, during the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939), an existing tractor factory, specialized in the production of tracked tractors, was converted to an armored vehicle factory by the Republican government under the name of "FÃÂ*brica Z" ( Z Factory). My great-grandfather, an appreciated blacksmith at that time, worked there. As usually in time of war, child must help to the war effort, and my grandmother (who had transmitted me the whole history) was not an exception, working at the side of her father until the very last moment, when they escaped to France through the Pyrenees (she was about 14 years old then). She explained me that in the most desperate moments of lack of supplies, a kind of sandwich armor was produced in the factory. In a recent documentation published by a local historian, I've found the confirmation (explained in more technical terms) about the sandwich armour described by my grandmother.

In this case, between the two metal plates, the workers of the FÃÂ*brica Z used compressed sheep wool extracted from mattresses (I hope it would be correct in English...). The bullet penetrated the outer plate and, hopefully, lost enough velocity in the wool to do not pierce the inner plate. Of course, always talking about small arms fire. I have no idea about the effectiveness of this type of armour, but I suppose that, in a very rudimentary way, uses the capacity to absorb kinetic energy of a dense and flexible material (compressed wool in this case) like a modern personal armour. This type of sandwich armour was used in light tanks.

And returning specifically to the thread, one of the main works in the FÃÂ*brica Z was to add armor plates to the Chevrolet trucks bought by the Republican government to the United States. Sadly, I have no photos of these trucks.

[Mohoender]

I would not have thought of wool, that opens plenty of possibilities. Great story Marc. I'll have to think of that in terms of gameplay.

[General Pain]

this might help...

http://groups.msn.com/VietNamGuntruc...uckroster.msnw

[Targan]

I agree with Mo. Great story Marc, thanks for sharing it.

[Jason]

I have issue #55 of Challenge magazine, which has an article on guntrucks in T2K. Actually, it is not really an article, but three vehicle plates by Keith Potter

I. M35 2.5 Ton Gun Truck. An armored 2.5 ton truck with a NHT mounted to fire over the cab, and two NMT, one on each side. The cargo-bed must be half empty and gunners are exposed to return fire.

II. M54 5 Ton Gun Truck. In Vietnam it was found that the M113 hull would fit on the bed of an M54 truck. This is a stripped M113 and an ARV (or equivilent) is needed.

III.M54 5 Ton Gun Truck M901 Version. An armored M54 with a M901 in the bed. Used in an anti-tank role with 10 TOW missles. (Good luck with that)

Not much is given to indicate how common these trucks would be, but it is noted that each is usually one-of-a-kind. I see these to be pretty common as long as ammo and fuel stocks hold up.

I also notice that several units in the U.S. lost most or all of thier transport. I imagine these units would modify whatever civilian vehicles they could into 'technicals'. I think these units have at least some MG's, with ammo being the main limitation, but just because these units were forced to fall back and re-group does not mean they never re-supplied ammo. This leaves the GM open to allow whatever fits his campaign.

[Marc]

Bona nit!

Using the subject of this thread, I've introduced a gun truck in my current campaign. Not in the players side this time, but in the hands of the polish militia in the town of Chelmno, that stands in the advancing path of the 5th ID on the spring of 2000. The truck was a modified URAL 375, reinforced with sheet steel for a total armor value of 3. I've considered a basis of AV: 1 plus 16mm of sheet steel (AV:2), accordingly to v2.2 set of rules. The truck was armed with a 14.5mm KPV heavy machine gun. A fast thinking medic, a female major with only the basic training in grenade launcher skill, managed to destroy it with an RPG-16 quickly recovered from the body of a polish militiaman lying amid the rubble. Nice shot.

[Webstral]

I have included fairly sophisticated gun trucks in the OOB of the Granite Brigade, which is the main body of the New Hampshire Military Reserve (NHMR) at the end of 2000. Below is an excerpt from my write-up on the NHMR:

"Fire Support Battery Yankee is in many ways the heart of the brigade. As of January 2001, FSB Yankee disposes eleven gun trucks: eight trucks with direct fire weapons and three using Mk19 grenade launchers. Most gun trucks in post-attack America are unarmored vehicles with a single machine gun on a pintle mount. Not so the gun trucks of FSB Yankee. The Manchester cantonment was extremely fortunate to acquire among its refugees a group of Vietnam veterans who recreated Vietnam-era and WW2 weapon systems for private collectors and museums across the country. The team used local machine shops and auto shops to combine a number of armored cars formerly used for moving cash and other valuables with a small stock of heavy weapons the State Headquarters had amassed by emptying the National Guard armories around the state. Although the combination of trucks and guns is unique for every system, all of them resemble in concept the gun-carrying halftracks of WW2. For each armored car, the roof of the cargo area and the upper half of the sidewalls were removed. The guns were installed in powered mounts designed by the re-creation team and manufactured under their supervision. Each gun truck thus has an armored cab that is proof against small arms fire and a powerful weapon in its cargo bed.

"The most powerful of the gun trucks is called “Cruiser�. Cruiser sports a 20mm rotary cannon mounted on a ten-wheeled armored truck. The cannon was salvaged from an inoperable ADA system. The M113 had been stripped for parts to support other vehicles, but for some reason the gun had been left. The NHMR acquired the cannon when Acting Governor Colby ordered the consolidation of all state assets at Manchester. The re-creation team came across it in a NHMR warehouse and couldn’t wait to make something of it. The result was Cruiser.

"FSB Yankee has three gun trucks it classifies as “destroyers�. Each destroyer has a quad .50 caliber mounted in its bed. Each destroyer has its own name: “Bull�, “Bronco�, and “Bear�. The destroyers are mounted in six-wheeled armored cars of the sort used so frequently to transport cash and valuables in pre-war times.

"The fire support battery also has three gun trucks it classifies as “frigates�. The frigates each have a quad mount of M60s. The frigates are named “Moe,� “Larry,� and “Curly�. The frigates are mounted in lighter four-wheeled armored vehicles used for courier duty during pre-war times.

"The eighth gun truck mounts a 5.56 minigun in its bed. This last truck is nicknamed “Junior�. Junior is actually an armored van that has had a reinforced suspension and add-on armor plates installed.

"In addition to the direct fire gun trucks, FSB Yankee has three trucks with Mk19 40mm automatic grenade launchers mounted on pintles. The grenade trucks are unarmored. They are held back from the main fighting and used to provide observed indirect fire support.

"FSB Yankee gets involved in almost every fight of the Granite Brigade. The crews are a tight-knit group with considerable élan. Under all conditions, the gun trucks find themselves called out to assist a patrol in contact. When the gun trucks arrive and apply their massive firepower, most marauders still in contact either break contact or quickly surrender. The crews are almost all Veteran NPCs, with about ten percent of their number being Elite NPCs and ten percent being Experienced NPCs."


Webstral

[Raellus]

Just released in the U.S. (9/20). Got my copy in the mail today.

http://www.amazon.com/Vietnam-Gun-Tr...6659770&sr=8-1

I've only had a chance to thumb through it and read most of the picture captions. Good stuff, so far.

I'm certain gun trucks would become a feature of the Twilight War, especially after the advent of the cantonment system. Cantonments, although in many ways self sufficient, would still need periodic replenishment of things like large caliber ammo and other valuable items that could not be manufactured locally. A cantonment's far-flung outposts (patrol bases, forward operating bases, fire bases, etc.) would also need resupply from the parent units main hub. Areas between cantonments and outposts would likely see predation by deserters, marauders, opportunistic civies, enemy raiders, etc. High-value convoys would need to be guarded against such threats and their simply wouldn't be the line or MP units to do the job. Motor transport units would have to guard themselves, and the venerable gun truck would see a renaissance.

Do any of you know much about motor transport units? Motor vehicles are at a premium late in the Twilight War. Would individual divisions have their own organic long-range transport units or would such line haul convoys be the specialty of Corps HQs? I'm trying to think of how gun truck units would be organized for a little project that I'm working on for the forum.

Also, what trucks was the U.S. military using up until 1997 or so?


P.S. If you like guns and trucks and special forces, I also recommend this Osprey title:

http://www.amazon.com/Special-Operat...d_bxgy_b_img_b

[Webstral]

Rae,

Thanks for reviving this one. Ironically, I was thinking yesterday and today that I really need to pare down the equipment of FSB Yankee (see above) and throw a couple of gun trucks into the lineup of the Green Jackets. Of course, I could minimize the effects of all of the gear owned by FSB Yankee by having half of them down for maintenance at any time and the rest forced to live off starvation fuel rations.

[Sanjuro]

Would individual divisions have their own organic long-range transport units or would such line haul convoys be the specialty of Corps HQs?

It would depend on how scarce the vehicles were; if suitable trucks are plentiful, individual divisions could have their own (although Corps HQ might allocate the fuel). The scarcer the vehicles, the more likely Corps is to maintain control, to make sure each division gets its fair share.

[ArmySGT.]

http://news.webshots.com/album/124599660fVnKRb

http://spruebender.net/forum2/index.php?topic=585.0

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=869048

http://www.stenvalls.com/shop/?cat_id=203

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?...d=54640&page=1

[Top-Break]

The term "Technical" actually has nothing to do with armor, or the lack thereof.

During the Somali famine, but before US intervention, relief groups and news crews were extorted/persuaded to hire local toughs for protection. Back in the 1990s it was not a good idea to have mercenaries and protection payments on ones balance sheet, so the mercs/militiamen were dubbed "technical staff". The name stuck.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Top-Break

The term "Technical" actually has nothing to do with armor, or the lack thereof.

During the Somali famine, but before US intervention, relief groups and news crews were extorted/persuaded to hire local toughs for protection. Back in the 1990s it was not a good idea to have mercenaries and protection payments on ones balance sheet, so the mercs/militiamen were dubbed "technical staff". The name stuck.

Interesting tidbit. Thanks, Top.

[Webstral]

Top, thanks for posting that piece. I had no idea. It's interesting where names come from.

Army SGT, thanks for all those great images. Sigh. This is another one of those forehead slapping moments for me. Why haven't I given more thought to gun trucks in CONUS (everywhere, really) in 2000? They ought to be darned well ubiquitous. All one needs is a truck, some steel plating for armor, a means to attach the plating, and some weapons to mount on the truck. Duh. Even the light divisions ought to have a number of these, so long as fuel exists and the truck can be kept in repair.

I'm seriously thinking that I need to revisit all of my TO&E to account for gun trucks. The matter of gun trucks begs the question of priorities. If one has an M60, does it belong on a gun truck or with a platoon of dismounts? Heavier weapons, like the M2HB, almost certainly have to be mounted on a vehicle. Of course, machine guns aren't exactly as common as hunting rifles. Only so many are going to be confronted with this choice. Still, when I think about the Vermont State Guard and the Granite Brigade (NH), these are organizations with access to cargo trucks, homemade armor, and machine guns. Do the M60s and 60mm mortars go on trucks or with the dismounts?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Army SGT, thanks for all those great images.


I'm seriously thinking that I need to revisit all of my TO&E to account for gun trucks. The matter of gun trucks begs the question of priorities. If one has an M60, does it belong on a gun truck or with a platoon of dismounts? Heavier weapons, like the M2HB, almost certainly have to be mounted on a vehicle. Of course, machine guns aren't exactly as common as hunting rifles. Only so many are going to be confronted with this choice. Still, when I think about the Vermont State Guard and the Granite Brigade (NH), these are organizations with access to cargo trucks, homemade armor, and machine guns. Do the M60s and 60mm mortars go on trucks or with the dismounts?

Your welcome,

Gun trucks serve two purposes.

For Convoys they bring often overwhelming fire power to a convoy. Making a convoy to dangerous to attack. This fire power can travel with and at the same speed as the convoy.

Heavy Weapons platform. The accompany dismounts or support base defense. They use the longer range of the heavy weapons to keep away from enemy dismounts while bring direct fire and indirect fire in support of their own.

[ArmySGT.]

In Tw2k your likely to use captured enemy wagons for gun trucks. If you lose one......... meh. While desperately using your own that you do have parts for as haulers.

[Webstral]

It would be hard to overstate the value of armored fire support vehicles in CONUS in 2000/2001. Really, in any location in the world in which the local bandits and warlords don't have access to heavy weapons, a gun truck would play a key role in enabling government troops to assault marauder and warlord strongholds. By the same token, functional gun trucks would enable those who would be law unto themselves to overcome the defenses of lightly armed militias.