Questions about Home Guard/Militia units..

[natehale1971]

Hi everyone,

I've got a question for everyone here about Home Guard/Local Militia units. A friend gave me something really good, namely three PDFs of an old West End Games Role-playing game called "The Price of Freedom" where the USSR and its allies occupy the United States of America. And PCs are resistance fighters from a wide vareity of civilian occupations and backgrounds.

Now the question i have is about arming, equipping and organizing home guard/local militia units in a WWIII type scenerio... now I know that the National Guard Armories that are located all across the country are meant for such purposes.

I am wondering about how these units are not just intitally outfited and equipped, but how they would be maintaing their munitions.

The presence of Reloading Equipment in gun & hunting stores would be a major part of keeping them in the field.

But I really would like to hear everyone's ideas and suggestions.

[The Rifleman]

In Vermont, most of the "home guard" units are almost exclusively retired or medically seperated national guard veterans. They did get some extremely limited use during Iraq/Afghanistan deployments when almost the entire state was gone.

The guard is different then active duty; we tend to have lots of excess equipment laying around different armories and national guard "bases". Most of it is really old and has little or no relevence, like massive amounts of tents, trailers and so on. Also, we tend to have more gear then we need, plus there are spares at "state" level.

Each state has its own National Guard HQ and related small units that aren't tied to a unit that gets deployed. I would assume that if things really were that bad, then the state HQ and non-deploying units would form a structure and the old retired guys in the state guard for form the cadre for new units.

I couldn't honestly see those old guys doing much, and its hit or miss with equipment. You'd probably see there are some small arms, lots of uniforms, helmets and individual gear, as well as some soft skinned vehicles and even a handful of tanks and APCs. However, the old guys may have the brains, but most aren't really capable of leading in the field, so you'd have some severe leadership issues at squad, platoon and possible company level.

[Legbreaker]

Don't count on any armoured vehicles being with the home guard. We already know there's been a huge attrition of vehicles in Europe with airfields, nuclear power stations, etc stripped of their armoured assets and sent to the front as battle replacements.
At best an occasional group may have a 50 year old vehicle one of their members happened to have laying about and restored.

[The Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Don't count on any armoured vehicles being with the home guard. We already know there's been a huge attrition of vehicles in Europe with airfields, nuclear power stations, etc stripped of their armoured assets and sent to the front as battle replacements.
At best an occasional group may have a 50 year old vehicle one of their members happened to have laying about and restored.

Actually, no, this is not accurate becuase you are not taking National Guard / Active army politics into account.

The active army allots each National Guard unit (be battalion, company, brigade) the exact same equipment that its active duty peer gets. When the units are "called to federal service" all of this gear goes with them and becomes the active army's responsibility.

However, this authozirized equiptment is always the active army's hand-me-downs. When the National Guard gets "new" used gear from the army, then then most of its left overs get disposed off... in different ways. For example, most of the tanks are returned to depots and then sold to other countries. Trucks however aren't worth as much and tend to be sold at local auction. Other items that are considered "wore out" like generators, tents, stoves, trailers, camo nets (to name a few) are often abandoned. When I moved my company from our old armory (built in 1903) to a brand new one, we discovered parts to vehicles, tools, radios, tents... all the way back to the 50s.

Where the politics come into play is that this is each STATE's gear. They pretty much do whatever they want. At state level, we still have an old boneyard that has a few M-1s and M60s that are supposed to become memorials; I've seen an M42 duster and some captured Iraqi armor too. I know they are fully functional as the mechanics from the state level shops get in them and move them around from time to time to keep them running. The state determines where all this stuff is going to end up and there is so much of it the active army can't keep up. As a rough guess, I'd say there are about two dozen Vermont National Guard tanks scattered around the state on lawns, everything from M1s, M60s, M48s and even an M4 and M113s. I also know there are spares laying around in warehouses for them.

Politics. Do you think that the big army is going to track down an M60A3 in West Rutland, Vermont in front of the armory when they are in the middle of world war 3? No, actually I know first hand the active army has NO CLUE that these tanks are there. Do you think that with all the disturbances at home, Vermont is going to volunteer its reasources to go to Yugoslavia or Poland when they have a maurader problem in their own back yard? You're darn right they aren't going to give up their assets.

As soon as all the deployable national guard units are gone, the state guard moves into the vacant armories and takes over the local "state" mission. Thats disaster relief, riot control, so on. Its hit or miss what gear is at the armory, so at state level they will send down what's needed. As I say before, most of the state guard is retired national guard, so they typicall have some rank and expereince. Lots of Colonels, Majors, Sergeant Majors and Master Sergeants are quite active. They now the local citizens, government, the unit, the gear, procedures and so on. Where they are hurting is young, able bodied men.

Then you've also got all those non-deployable units and they have some manpower too. Its really all hit or miss depending on the local leadership, how the politics play out, if the state was home to an armor brigade or an infantry brigade.... or even USED to have an armored brigade..... could be anything.

[natehale1971]

Since the State Guard/Home Guard has so many vets how hard would it be to set up training facilities to train younger bodies to fill all of the vacancies? Using Boy Scouts (or equivilent) types to help create a cadre of support personnel that would supliment the police and emergency services? Or others to help provide security and support (anything form community watches to other civilian security groups)...

It's not just the gear, it's the core of vets that would be to train and get bodies to do the acutal grunt work... just how quickly would it take for these vets to set up and train the first groups to fill the gaps in local security/defense like we saw the British did during the Second World War?

[The Rifleman]

First, an appology to Legbreaker, I don't mean to sound confrotational. What you said makes GOOD common sense. However, in the military and national guard, common sense isn't always what happens.

As to using the State Guard as a cadre, its another good idea, on paper. In reality, I'm not so sure, as most of them are so old or broke that they are quite limited in how much they can do. Its hard to teach someone how move from fighting position to position when you have instructors that honestly can't run or maybe in trot.

Just to give you an idea, your average State Guard soldier is a retired E-8 or E-9 and is between 60 and 75 years old. Your average officer is the same age but most likely between O-4 and O-6. I'd say that there would be a few E-7s and maybe one or two O-3s. The biggest problem with training is that there are NO E-5s or E-6s that would be your team and squad leaders, and no junior officers to lead your platoons. So essentially you'd have everything you need to run an honest to god world class battalion HQ with a whole staff of NCOs and officers that are doing the job of a captain or major but could easily be the battalion or even brigade commander. But your actual battalion would have nothing more than draftees, which brings me to the next problem.

The state guard is not designed for basic training; I'd bet that the tough old guys know what needs to be done and could get around that, but there is no system in place. So somehow, the state would have to come up with a way to (unconstitutionally) draft people into it. Then, they'd have to run an OCS with "90 day wonder" Lts to run platoons and "shake and bake" sergeants. I hated both of these concepts in Vietnam, but its the only way it would work.

Just for laughs, I'm going to promote myself to the State of Vermont Adjuant General and play out the war, writing what I would do each step of the way so you'd have an idea of how things work out.

[HorseSoldier]

I thought there was legislation or a military policy in place that said vehicles on static display had to be de-mil'ed and rendered non-functional after that guy in California stole an M60 tank back in '95. I may be wrong on that, though, and obviously its relevance in the T2K timeline is questionable. (And rendering a vehicle non-functional does not imply it has to be permanently non-functional, though my understanding was that "non-functional" normally translated to the power pack being pulled from AFVs.)

Just to give you an idea, your average State Guard soldier is a retired E-8 or E-9 and is between 60 and 75 years old. Your average officer is the same age but most likely between O-4 and O-6. I'd say that there would be a few E-7s and maybe one or two O-3s. The biggest problem with training is that there are NO E-5s or E-6s that would be your team and squad leaders, and no junior officers to lead your platoons. So essentially you'd have everything you need to run an honest to god world class battalion HQ with a whole staff of NCOs and officers that are doing the job of a captain or major but could easily be the battalion or even brigade commander. But your actual battalion would have nothing more than draftees, which brings me to the next problem.

Back in the day, I had some contact with Alabama State Defense Force personnel, and would say that version of a state guard seemed to be about 75% military veterans as described above and 25% younger guys who wanted to serve in the active or reserve military but had some issue disqualifying them from enlistment. Some of those guys appeared to be okay enough guys and some were of the "I'm a cop . . . a mall cop" sorts whose disqualifying issue was probably psychiatric in nature (or they just wanted "military" involvement without the work it requires). Some portion of those younger guys might have been suitable for those missing junior leadership cadre positions, but A) they lack real experience and B) in a Twilight War scenario enlistment standards would become loose enough that all those guys except the truly exceptional duds (and probably even some of them) could have gotten themselves into the real military.

I am wondering about how these units are not just intitally outfited and equipped, but how they would be maintaing their munitions.

Here in Alaska, the State Defense Force has a small fleet of its own military vehicles -- 2.5 and 5 ton trucks are all I've seen. They keep them stored at NG armories, but are easily recognizable despite the standard NATO three color woodland camo paint jobs because unlike active or reserve military vehicles they have to carry state of Alaska license plates because they don't have the exemption from needing plates that applies to active or reserve military vehicles.

Judging by what I've seen, unless they have additional vehicles stored elsewhere, we're probably talking about a fleet of vehicles that would be inadequate to effectively motorize an infantry battalion. On the other hand, I assume those vehicles are surplus purchased by the state of Alaska and would be free from any concerns of being taken back into service to address attrition on the battlefield (well, at least until the Soviet invasion of AK, at which point I imagine the AK state defense force would wind up being a logistics and civil affairs auxiliary part of X Corps).

The presence of Reloading Equipment in gun & hunting stores would be a major part of keeping them in the field.

I'm not sure how much this would help -- the just-in-time inventory pattern in most retail stores is going to mean even seizing everything related to reloading in even a fair sized city isn't going to translate to enough reloading supplies to sustain a military unit of even moderate size that is seeing any significant action and expenditure of ammunition. Obviously, patrolling the mean streets of America post-TDM isn't going to be as ammunition intensive as slugging it out in Central Europe, but the mauling some of the divisions in USAVG suffered from armed groups in CONUS suggests that we're talking about a much worse situation that, say, the LA Riots even before New America goes active and presents a large, organized insurgency.

What's really going to be needed for military operations is smokeless powder, bullet, and primer production on an industrial scale even if brass cases are largely being scrounged and reloaded -- something comparable to the Wojo factory in Krakow is going to be have to exist on a regional basis in the US and elsewhere to keep even the greatly reduced military forces shown in T2K able to operate at even a semblance of modern fire and maneuver tactics.

[The Rifleman]

Situation: The Vermont National Guard is made up of a number of different units with diverse missions. During the war, not only did the units find themselves employed in different capabilities, but in different situations around the world. The following information is used to describe how these situations would have played out should world war three have happened in either V1 or V2 rules.

Vermont National Guard Organization (pre war):

Vermont STARC HQ (includes public affairs, state medical support, the biathlon team, Adjutant General and staff (100 men 10 vehicles)

Subunits
86th Armored Brigade (see below)
Vermont Troop Command (see below)
Vermont Military Academy (see below)
Vermont Army Mountain Warfare School (see below)
Ethan Allen Firing Range Control and staff (see below)
Camp Johnson Logistics and Full time support (see below)
Vermont Air National Guard (see below)
Norwich University (a military academy since the 1800s) ROTC, Castleton State University ROTC , University of Vermont ROTC (none of these programs are officially Vermont National Guard, however most of the facility are retired military officers, the state details excess officers as support and instructors and most of the students are dual members of ROTC and the Vermont National Guard (that are not eligible for deployment. Most of the Vermont National Guard officers are either Vermont Military Academy OCS graduates or Norwich University ROTC graduates)

86th Armored Brigade HQ (200 men, 30 vehicles)

Subunits:

1/172 Armored Battalion (800 men 56 M1s, 8 M901s, 8 M109/4.2” mortars, 120 vehicles)
2/172 Armored Battalion (800 men 56 M1s, 8 M901s, 8 M109/4.2” mortars, 120 vehicles)
86th Artillery Battalion (400 men 24 M109A3s 40 vehicles)
172nd Field Support Battalion (500 men, 120 vehicles)
Other Brigade units are from states other than Vermont
Vermont Troop Command HQ (controlling headquarters for small units) (30 men 5 vehicles)

Subunits

3/172 Infantry Battalion (Mountain) (500 men, 20 vehicles)
C Company, 3/126 Aviation (200 men, 20 blackhawks, 15 vehicles)
45th Engineer Company (75 men, 25 vehicles)
131st Engineer Company (120 men, 25 vehicles)
40th Army Band (30 men 5 vehicles)

Vermont Military Academy HQ and staff (20men)
Company H, 1st OCS Battalion (5 men)
Company E, 1st Infantry Training Brigade (15men 3 vehicles)
Company B, 14th General Studies Battalion (20 men)

Vermont Army Mountain Warfare School (25 men 5 vehicles)

Ethan Allen Firing Range
Range Control Staff (20 men 10 vehicles)
Medical Support (5 men 1 vehicle)
UTES Maintainece shop support (10 men)

Camp Johnson Full time support and staff
CSMS State support maintance shop (10 men)
Administrative offices, warehouse and support (30 men)
Post security (10 men)

Vermont Air National Guard HQ (50 men 10 vehicles)
158th Fighter Wing (total 600 men)
134th Fighter Squadron
158th Operations, Support, and Medical Groups

Vermont Army National Guard timeline:
1945 – 172nd Infantry Regiment returns from the war with Japan as a component of the 43rd Infantry Division (The Division commander was General Leonard Wing senior, a former Officer in the 2/172 Infantry) Also, the Vermont State Police are formed by Major General Merrit Edison, medal of honor winner for his service during WW2 with the USMC in the pacific.

1960s – The 86th Infantry Brigade is converted into an Armored Brigade under the command of Brigadier General Leonard Wing Jr, an armor officer that served in World War 2. The 86th Armored Brigade is transferred from the 43rd Infantry Division to the 50th Armored Division. General Wing becomes the 50th Armored Division Commander, then later assistant Vermont Adjutant General. He retires in 1973.

1970s – The army restructures its armor brigades and one battalion 3/172 is closed. The Brigade receives M48s

1980s – General Donald Edwards, a Norwich University Graduate, Vietnam Veteran, and former active duty officer is elected state Adjutant General in 1981. He begins implementing a build up. The army expands under President Regan with political campaigning from General Edwards; 3/172 is opened as a “mountain” battalion and the Army Mountain Warfare School is opened; the biathlon team begins competing in the Olympics . General Edwards essential creates a “speciality mountain / sports / infantry” environment. The Mountain School is teaching summer and winter “mountain” classes, as well as specialty course such as “the assault climber” course. General Edwards oversees the transition from M48A5s to M60A3s for the 86th Armored Brigade. He retains some of the tanks for future memorials, as well as some of the other older support vehicles. General Edwards also secures funds for several large state run maintance facilities and permanent staff.

1990s – In 1993 General Edwards secured M1 tanks for the 86th IBCT; he retains several of the M60A3s as war memorials. 1995 General Edwards secured funds for the new Vermont Military Academy building as well as expands the staff for the 1st Infantry Training Brigade. The staff now teaches 11B MOSQ, 11B BNCOC and 11B ANCOC all in 2 week phases.

1997 – The 86th Armored Brigade is activated as part of the 50th Armored Division. All of its equipment and personal are deployed to Germany. To have enough personnel, all of the inactive national guard soldiers are also recalled and deployed. The Vermont Air National Guard’s 158th Fighter Wing is activated and deployed to Europe. Company C, 3/126 Aviation is activated and deployed with its parent unit to Korea.

1998 – With the activation of 1st Army, all of its subordinate units are activated. The 3/172 Infantry Battalion is activated and is used for security duty for 1st US Army and disaster relief missions in the Army HQ immediate area. The 131st Engineer Company is activated and forms part of a Corp level engineer battalion in 1st Army. Due to political pressure from the Govenor of Vermont and General Edwards, the 40th Army band and the 45th Engineer Company are activated but remain under state control. The decision is partly political and partly practical as the 45th is perpetually understrength, the 40th band has no mission and the states need local forces to maintain order.

1999 – With Vermonts limited population, riots and looting is fairly limited compared to other states. General Edwards is heavy handed (he was known to lock down state controlled roads and had numerous political battles with Burlington leaders over the years). General Edwards deploys the 40th Band and 45th Engineer to the Highways and turns around refugees that cannot show they can support themselves.

With numerous bridges, rivers and mountains, at first its easy to control access, but as the issues in the cities become increasing worse, General Edwards needs more soldiers and units. With pressure on the Govenor, General Edwards begins a “state” draft. Able bodied men are sent to the Vermont Military Academy and trained with instructors from the 1st Infantry training brigade and the Vermont Army Mountain Warfare school on infantry tactics. The 40 instructors and staff are able to run a basic training course every eight weeks that turns out 200 students. Drawing on his Vietnam War experience, he has the staff select the top 10 recruits to attend the OCS battalion 12 week long course to become officers and the next best 30 recruits attend the General Studies battalion courses for 8 weeks to become NCOs. Also, the Norwich University Campus has several hundred M16s and M14s as well as a large number of cadets that were in officer training but not deployed. The state’s warehouses are full of older equiptment such as uniforms, helmets and web gear. The armories of the schools and state level units are all full of M16 rifles and the state has a small ammo dump at Camp Johnson.

General Edwards then uses his staff to shift through the state’s retired reserve list and finds all of the national guard veterans who are receiving entitlements and activates them. (I personally witnessed an master sergeant who was retired for 4 years activated for service in Afghanistan so I know it can be done). He also activates that state guard. These veterans, as well as the personal who were declined for deployment with the 86th Brigade become the senior leadership for 2 new Vermont National Guard battalions, as the state has roughly enough rifles and gear for 1,000 or so new soldiers.

Discipline in the battalions is fairly tight as the battalion staffs are full of retired colonels, the company commanders are fairly young retired majors from the college ROTC, and most of the platoon sergeants are military school trained 20 year old Lts from Norwich. Many of the state guard and retired soldiers are former tankers, having served in the 60s – 80s. These older soldiers are paired with some younger ones to form tank crews. The following vehicles are recovered from lawns where they were memorials or from the bone yard behind armories: M48A5s 4, M60A3s 8, M113s 4, M42s 2, 75mm pack howitzers 2. The M48s and M60s are not just paper tigers.

The state has TWO full maintance shops that can MAKE parts for tanks and have spares (especially for the M60s) in inventory. There is a hydroelectric dam just 1 mile from Camp Johnson and the state shop providing power for the machines to work. Also, Camp Johnson has a small ammo dump and the 86th Armored Brigade uses M1s with 105mm cannons. So there is a limited amount of ammunition remaining in stock that will work with the main guns on the M48s and M60s, as well as .50 for the M2 machine guns.

2000 – Vermont is essentially a dictatorship. The governor is nothing more than a figurehead as General Edwards controls the military. The state police and Vermont national guard are algamated into one force. The “1st Vermont Battalion” with 500 men is controlling the northern half of the state and the “2nd Vermont Battalion” with 500 men is controlling the southern half of the state. Each platoon has one or two state troopers with it as a law enforcement specialist who acts as an investigator for need be for crimes; serious offenses are sent to battalion HQ for “trial”.

Most of the countryside is occasionally patrolled, but the cities and towns have regular patrols of National Guard, typically with either a state trooper or local law enforcement officer. The Interstates and Highways are controlled by 40th band in the North, or by the 2nd Battalion in the south. The 45th Engineer Company has been re-enforced to a battalion by using the state highway department’s personal and equipment. Important bridges are maintained and the 45th is constructing permanent fortifications to keep refugees out of the state. The “3rd Vermont Armored Company” and “4th Vermont Armored Company” both formed around the remaining tanks and are used as a reserve at different locations around the state. They are based at armories that contain shops designed to work on tanks so maintance is easy to upkeep and the tanks are stored inside, out of the elements unless needed.

Rumors of the military state have made as far south as the 1st Army HQ, and when that headquarters disintegrated, the remaining 150 soldiers of the 3/172 Infantry (mountain) began the trek home to Vermont from New York by foot. The “state” farms outside the prisons are still active, as well as many dairy farms including ones at the university’s, and many Morgan horse farms have been used to raise horses for agriculture. As Vermont did not have a single military target worth hitting with a nuclear device, the only major threat to the populations were marauders and refugee influxes, both of which were prevented by General Edwards hard handed ways. Vermont even has a nuclear power plant (Vermont Yankee) and some remaining staff that is currently off line but will be restarted if enough industry in Brattlboro is repaired to justify it.

So that’s just a really rough draft with some ideas I just typed up as I went along. I guess I could war game out a few things differently, but it really all comes down to leadership. If you have a 38 year military veteran of Vietnam, like General Edwards, who isn’t afraid to piss people off and has the know – how , you could do a lot.

[The Rifleman]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I thought there was legislation or a military policy in place that said vehicles on static display had to be de-mil'ed and rendered non-functional after that guy in California stole an M60 tank back in '95. I may be wrong on that, though, and obviously its relevance in the T2K timeline is questionable. (And rendering a vehicle non-functional does not imply it has to be permanently non-functional, though my understanding was that "non-functional" normally translated to the power pack being pulled from AFVs.)

You're right, they are supposed to be de-milled. However, a lot of those tanks spend YEARS sitting in motor pools waiting for state to get around to doing the work. Besides that, if if they are de-milled, the spares are still there to swap out, and at the state level they have everything they need to make parts. Power pacts probably would be the most difficult to replace, as whole ones aren't just laying around waiting to be replaced, but I don't think they removed the whole thing, just one or two parts. As a matter of fact, there is one partular one that needed to be moved, they just unlocked it and drove the 50 year old tank to a new home lol.

[natehale1971]

I want to thank The Rifleman for all his help on this. it's given me some good ideas for what i'm working on.

[The Rifleman]

You're welcome. I should thank you too. I saved all that info and perhaps I'll use it to create some sort of Vermont reasource guide or even campaign.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by The Rifleman

You're welcome. I should thank you too. I saved all that info and perhaps I'll use it to create some sort of Vermont reasource guide or even campaign.

That's great. just make sure you post it here for everyone to enjoy it as well!

[Targan]

Interesting take on Vermont. Have you guys read Webstral's New England material?

[Legbreaker]

My major concern here is that once Europe, Korea and the Middle East really ramp up and losses start piling up (particularly in the latter half of 1997 when NATO was in full retreat and loosing entire Divisions one after the other), a concerted effort would be made to send out "scroungers" to round up all these vehicles, or at the very least tally up what is where in order to requisition them later on if things get REALLY bad (which they obviously did, but post nuke there's not exactly much of an organised "procurement" organisation left).

Some pieces of equipment are likely to escape being swept back into service, sure, but if the handful of us here on this forum are aware of what is potentially out there, I'm fairly sure somebody in the military, hell even the civilian government, is going to start thinking along the same lines and DO something about it.

Many vehicles, etc aren't going to be suitable for the front lines - who in their right mind wants to send an old M4 to Europe in 1997? However, anything deemed useful isn't likely to get easily overlooked.

Therefore, WWII and maybe Korea era equipment may be found with the state guard and militia, but anything newer is sure to be exceptionally unique.

[The Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

My major concern here is that once Europe, Korea and the Middle East really ramp up and losses start piling up (particularly in the latter half of 1997 when NATO was in full retreat and loosing entire Divisions one after the other), a concerted effort would be made to send out "scroungers" to round up all these vehicles, or at the very least tally up what is where in order to requisition them later on if things get REALLY bad (which they obviously did, but post nuke there's not exactly much of an organised "procurement" organisation left).

Some pieces of equipment are likely to escape being swept back into service, sure, but if the handful of us here on this forum are aware of what is potentially out there, I'm fairly sure somebody in the military, hell even the civilian government, is going to start thinking along the same lines and DO something about it.

Many vehicles, etc aren't going to be suitable for the front lines - who in their right mind wants to send an old M4 to Europe in 1997? However, anything deemed useful isn't likely to get easily overlooked.

Therefore, WWII and maybe Korea era equipment may be found with the state guard and militia, but anything newer is sure to be exceptionally unique.

Just no. The nearest army bases are Fort drum (10 hours drive) or Fort Dix (8 hours drive). By army base standards, neither are large. Do you honestly think that someone is going to get in a car, spend days or weeks driving around small towns in new england hoping to see a lawn ornaments? The army has no idea where these tanks are because they are not even the army's property anymore. Lets play this out.

The army has people spending weeks driving around looking for old tanks. Then, after one is actually found, they have to get a truck and a special trailer to come up from Kentucky (three days drive) to get it. AND if its not running, you'll need a tank recovery vehicle to drag or push it. AND that vehicle will need a second truck and special trailer to bring it up from Kentucky to Ludlow, Vermont, to bring it back as well. AND don't forget that someone has got to keep them fueled. AND on top of that, these tanks ARENT OWNED by the army, they are sitting on the property book of the state. So even if the army decided they wanted to try and pull rank, its totally unrealistic.

Are you familiar with the US Army Vehicle guide? Whole infantry divisions were getting attacked by bandits. How are two tractor trailers towing a tank recovery vehicle, mechanics, and some other vehicles with stills going to drive 3 days through bandit country because some private found a tank?

[The Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Targan

Interesting take on Vermont. Have you guys read Webstral's New England material?

I didn't know it existed.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by The Rifleman

Are you familiar with the US Army Vehicle guide?

Intimately.

Does it matter how far away an army base is if it's a non-military, government agency tracking them down? :s
Am I misunderstanding things here? Are we talking about just one vehicle in a depot waiting for conversion to lawn ornament, or closer to the impression I'm getting from reading this thread, a collection of a dozen or so plus miscellaneous equipment abandoned/cast off/declared obsolete and surplus pre war? If the latter, then these depots represent a significant resource which should not be overlooked.

We also know that the military/government is able and willing to requisition equipment and supplies during wartime - they've done it before and will do it again. Therefore, the "paper" ownership of these items is a completely moot point. Take for example the notes for B2: Cadillac Gage Stingray.

...in early 1997 the Stingrays were requisitioned. (The vehicle in this plate still retains markings on it's rear superstructure showing it was requisitioned in February 1997 by Field Materials Headquarters Company 12.)

So, are we saying bandits and the like were already making life difficult and operating without the authorities doing anything about it as early as 2 months after the US entering the war, before many units had even assembled and climbed aboard a plane?

If Stingrays, a vehicle which the US military didn't even have on it's books beforehand were being requisitioned and sent to the front, why would the "surplus" M1s, M60's, M48's, etc, etc, etc be ignored? It might well take a while to track them down, but records surely exist somewhere regarding disposal of these items? How hard would it be pre-nuke to carry out a simple computer search and find where they are supposed to be, then send out a couple of men in cars to confirm it?

Would these vehicles have necessarily been sent to the front? I doubt it.
BUT, as training vehicles, both for crew members and technicians (who could pull apart one of these recovered vehicles without fear of breaking something that was actually NEEDED on the front lines) they would be invaluable (take for example the Sentinel tank in WWII which although combat worthy never saw combat, but was used for training).

Once these vehicles were found, civilian contractors could be engaged to transport them to these training areas - a logging contractor for example with a low loader may find themselves shifting an M60 instead of the usual bull dozer. Use of these contractors will not have a significant negative impact on the overall troop mobilisation - they're outside the usual logistical network already operating overtime to shift tens, hundreds of thousands of troops to the docks and airports.

So in conclusion, efforts were clearly made to round up anything useful to the war effort. In wartime, the Federal government comes first, superseding any claims State or Local organisations have (although I'm sure there'd have to be payments, or promises of payments made). Not every vehicle/equipment would be rounded up, but it's very unlikely there'd be any relatively modern MBTs floating about for the State Guard/militia to lay their hands on.

As a side note, in WWII, all shrapnel from German bombs dropped on England was considered to be government property and was to be handed in for recycling immediately (although many kids illegally kept what they found as souvenirs). Numerous drives were made to collect scrap metal and just about anything else which could aid the war effort. In WWIII, would an M60A2 elude a similar round up if mere scrap in WWII was valued so highly?

[natehale1971]

the difference in the Scrapmetal drives of then and now... is the fact that there are vast fields of scrapmetal at salvage yards that would have been stirpped before they got around to looking for those armored vehicles, aircraft and the like setting out from of VFWs, American Legion Huts and Disabled American Veteran Chapter houses... or even those out front of various local armories across the country.

And by the time the scrapmetal drives were being made in the Twilight War timelines, the nuclear exchanges had already been made. And by then, the local authorities would have pulled those systems out and gotten them up and running to protect themselves... and really tough biker types whom become bandits would have gotten their hands on them during this period as well.

history has shown that there are alot of varibles in play, and it's hard to say where anything will fall when it's time to cash in those chips.

[Legbreaker]

Well, as usual, everyone is entitled to do whatever they want in their own game world.
For me though, I just don't believe it's possible these sorts of resources would be completely forgotten about and ignored in the almost twelve months of full scale warfare before continental US was nuked and conditions deteriorated past the point where it was possible to find and recover these things. The war starts going against NATO literally MONTHS before the US is nuked and there's a clear and desperate NEED for heavy equipment for the front lines.

Overlooking AFVs so new that their cousins are still in service is, in my mind at least, absolutely criminal!

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Well, as usual, everyone is entitled to do whatever they want in their own game world.
For me though, I just don't believe it's possible these sorts of resources would be completely forgotten about and ignored in the almost twelve months of full scale warfare before continental US was nuked and conditions deteriorated past the point where it was possible to find and recover these things. The war starts going against NATO literally MONTHS before the US is nuked and there's a clear and desperate NEED for heavy equipment for the front lines.

Overlooking AFVs so new that their cousins are still in service is, in my mind at least, absolutely criminal!

Not arguing with you my friend... but we're talking about the government. and anyone can tell you how some of their actions can be easily seen as criminal neglegence....

The AFVs in question that we're talking about are the ones that are "off-the-books" and not recored as being in the system... and thus considered to be decommissioned and very possibly scrapped.

Now AFVs that had been decommissioned within a year or two year period would be the ones that would be in the 'recall' to be requisitioned from their civilian owners (or even from those State Guard and local militia units that own and operate them).

Hell, they would requistion Armored Cars that transport valuables since as we're seeing... those vehicles are damn good at being resistant to roadside boombs and anti-vhiecle landmines.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by The Rifleman

You're right, they are supposed to be de-milled. However, a lot of those tanks spend YEARS sitting in motor pools waiting for state to get around to doing the work. Besides that, if if they are de-milled, the spares are still there to swap out, and at the state level they have everything they need to make parts. Power pacts probably would be the most difficult to replace, as whole ones aren't just laying around waiting to be replaced, but I don't think they removed the whole thing, just one or two parts. As a matter of fact, there is one partular one that needed to be moved, they just unlocked it and drove the 50 year old tank to a new home lol.

Its Federal law that display armored vehicles be de-milled, and the BATFE does check on such displays. At the very least, the fire-control must be removed, the gun tube rendered inoperative and the vehicle be immobile (usually be removing the power pack).

There was an earlier comment about a M-60A3 being used in a road-rage incident in, I believe, 1995. This vehicle was stolen from a National Guard Armory, dirt simple when you realize that all you need to operate a tank, is something to break or cut the hatch-lock off. Vehicles are normally parked with full fuel cells and have no keys for the ole ignition.

[The Rifleman]

Lots of posts on here with people making reasonable comments. However, I find it interesting that some people are debating their theories here when I am bringing first hand knowledge of things that I could easily get in my car and go drive and see or make a phone call to confirm.

The following statements are facts from 21 years of service in the national guard:

-National Guard units report to their respective govenor, not the Federal Government unless called to active duty. There are some state units that cannot be federalized. This includes the state guard. These units control miltary items that are not owned or tracked by the federal government or army.

-National Guard units are in control of "excess" equipment. The active army and federal government do not track this as it is in the hands of a different entity. National Guard at the state level have their own full time soldiers, support soldiers and reasources that are not controlled by the federal governement or active army.

-Just because there are laws in place does not mean they are followed or checked. The BATF may be active in some places but it isn't in others. Also, there is a big difference between an AFV on the front lawn of a wallmart and one at a national guard base.

Honestly as has been pointed out, I don't care what other people do in their games. I do find it frustrating that people are here telling me I'm wrong about things that I know first hand to be true. I've railheaded tanks, used HETs to move tanks by truck, driven tanks on the highways right here in my own state my whole life. I know full well how they are moved between different bases, who's tracking what and who isn't. I also understand the politics of the national guard and the active army quite well. I'm all good with debating "what could have" happened, but I'm really not good with debating what really exists, its just a time waster.

[kato13]

One fact that I remember that might be relevant to the discussion, in 1986 or 1987 the US military felt that they had lost track of too many vehicles within their own structure. A full inventory was ordered that was supposed to take into account things like damaged but reparable vehicles, vehicles stripped down to their frames, etc. The scale of the problem was so great that the most optimistic end goal of the inventory was to get an accurate count +/- 50,000 vehicles.

That size of that number stunned me to the point that I remember it clearly until today. (I believe the source was a 86/87 US Air Force published magazine)

If things can be that bad internally with vehicles counts inside a structure fully controlled by the federal government, I can't imagine what would slip through their fingers when they try to go outside that which they directly control.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind also that you have all kinds of vehicles in private hands as well in the US - everything from Sherman tanks to Ferrets are in the hands of private collectors, many of which have live tubes and are fully functional.

Those vehicles definitely would be part of militia units, either official ones sanctioned by the States, or private ones in areas where the State governments had broken down.

As for display vehicles and other assorted items - I know for a fact that an old Sherman used in my area where I grew up as a VFW display had a live tube. The vets, many of whom served as tankers in WWII, kept her functional and on at least three occasions she was driven in parades as late as 1991 (Gulf War victory celebration). In a Twilight 2000 world she definitely would have been part of any local militia raised in that area.

As for the Army tracking them down - they will have more than enough to do going thru places like Anniston Army Depot, Fort Knox, etc.. looking for anything that can be repaired and put back into the fight to ever start grabbing display vehicles at VFW's or go rooting thru a National Guard bone yard in Idaho or North Dakota except possibly in hot zones like CA, AZ, or Alaska once they were invaded and they literally needed everything they could lay their hands on.

[Targan]

It's just common sense that the US military (and later the military forces of MilGov, CivGov, state government forces, local quasi-government forces) will first track down and attempt to return to functionality those military vehicles that they have accurate records for and can easily get their hands on. Obviously that means mostly vehicles they actually own and can return to functionality without too much trouble. Then they'll start casting further afield and thinking 'outside the box'. Post-TDM, things will be in complete chaos for a while and moving non-functional combat vehicles around (and finding parts for them, and refurbishing them) will become a low priority/impossible, for a while.

Eventually in '98/'99/2000 the various national/state/local/quasi-official military and para-military forces might start trying to requisition the older and more obscure decommissioned military vehicles, and that will most likely be because they start encountering them in the hands of non-official groups. That's when panic will set in, mainly at the local level.

State Guard company commander: "Oh my God, those bandits down in Smithsville have got themselves some kind of armoured vehicle, initial reports suggest it's a Sherman tank. We have to deal with them before things really get out of hand. We need to take that tank intact if we can, if not we have to destroy it".

Afterwards, the ramifications of that situation will start to filter up the chain of command and efforts will be made to determine if other, similar surprises are hiding on the fringes. That's when concerted efforts will be made to seize and bring in as many old, privately owned military vehicles as possible.

[Olefin]

"Eventually in '98/'99/2000 the various national/state/local/quasi-official military and para-military forces might start trying to requisition the older and more obscure decommissioned military vehicles, and that will most likely be because they start encountering them in the hands of non-official groups. That's when panic will set in, mainly at the local level.

State Guard company commander: "Oh my God, those bandits down in Smithsville have got themselves some kind of armoured vehicle, initial reports suggest it's a Sherman tank. We have to deal with them before things really get out of hand. We need to take that tank intact if we can, if not we have to destroy it"."

Completely agree with you there Targan!! Think of what happens in the Ozarks module when suddenly MilGov units are getting nailed because New America has air power and they dont as an example. You would have to figure that they would be scrounging suddenly for anti-aircraft weapons of any type or flyable aircraft or whatever, where a month before they couldnt care less.

If your patrol gets jumped by marauders with Ferrets or a Sherman tank suddenly fixing that old M-60 sitting in front of the local VFW becomes a heck of a lot more urgent.

Think back to Krakow - the maruders who nailed Team Zulu had a BMP-C - and that one vehicle made them a force to be feared. When all you have is rifles and shotguns and pistols even an enemy force using old armored bank cars would make you want to get that display or museum piece tank back into operation and quickly.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

In spite of these measures, expansion was slow. By December 31, 1941, 24 days after the Pearl Harbor attack, the Army consisted of 1,685,403 men ( including 275,889 in the Army Air Corps) in 29 infantry, 5 armored and 2 cavalry divisions. While an increase of 433% in two and a half years was a magnificent achievement, shortages of equipment and trained personnel were serious.

And that, from here: http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php...42&postcount=2 is why I believe no stone will go unturned in the search for war material.
You just can't have a rapid build up of forces (as occurred both in early WWII and T2K) without shortages of equipment and a desperate need to acquire them from ANY source.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Overlooking AFVs so new that their cousins are still in service is, in my mind at least, absolutely criminal!

I'd tend to agree on this, with regard new enough equipment like M60 MBTs. On the other hand, I'm not sure how many of those would actually be on static displays in the Twilight timeline, when it was still a mainstay of ARNG armored units that had just begun transitioning to the M1 series, versus our timeline when post-1989 and Gulf War current generation equipment basically rained down on the reserves with the military draw down.

Anything pre-M113 or pre-M48 series tank would essentially be irrelevant and more trouble than they're worth, even as training vehicles due to the logistics piece and other issues I've discussed concerning my opinion about resurrecting things like WW2 vintage armor for Twilight War service in other threads.

Now, post nuke changes things, and state NG organizations are probably the most likely operators of wacky vintage armor -- as discussed above they might have access to parts (or additional vehicles to part out) and mechanics who, while not school house trained on the vintage equipment had been able to tinker with it. The collapse of the nationwide distribution network is going to be less of a show stopper at the state level (well, at least the smaller ones -- places like Texas and California are probably a mess for state-level lines of communications post TDM). How long they could actually keep anything resurrected from the bone yard running is an open question with the usual answer probably mostly being "not very long." Even without ammo for main guns and such, however, being able to park a tank shaped object in places of heavy civil disturbance during the winter 97-98 would help restore or maintain order.

By 2000, though, I'd guess that most vintage armor the states may have been able to put back in operation are back to essentially static display status like the non-functional tanks turned into turreted bunkers around Krakow. Even without main gun ammo it looks scary, and a turreted coax machinegun can lock down an entry control point even if it is subject to sporadic sniper fire and other harassment that might make guys manning gun towers iffy.

(Additional observation about NG and weird stuff still in inventory -- during the early 90s I served with a couple guys who were WW2 reenactors who noticed a pair of half tracks lurking in the back corner of the AL ARNG UTES cite at Ft McClellan/Pelham Range. They were definitely in the fixer-upper category, but those two guys spent some time climbing around on them and thought they could probably put together one working vehicle from what was present. Or at least "working" in the relatively low demand context of WW2 reenactment. They tried asking around with the UTES personnel on what the actual ownership status of the halftracks was, since there is a market in the reenactment community for that sort of thing, but I think their research never got further than the "hell if I know" answers they got from guys who worked there.)

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that until early 1998 or so they would be totally dedicated to getting damaged vehicles back into action or finishing refits or remans or getting new vehicles off the line

it wont be until the parts start to run out and the factories shut down that they will start looking a museums and VFW displays and the like

as for old tanks and AFV's - its actually a lot easier than you think to make parts for them with even small town machine shops - its one reason so many are in the hands of collectors

[headquarters]

As for operational use, a tank might not be as cost efficient as a bunch of technicals. So even though a state guard unit might very well be equipped with the tanks listed by Rifleman ( fully plausible in my book) - its not sure they would actually see much use other than sort of deterrents around valuable areas. Running a tank patrol would be costly business in T2K.

Setting up and arming a militia unit is not that hard if you have an outside threat that people fear. Setting up a good one on the other hand is a different matter.

I remember reading an interview with a man from Liverpool who served in the trenches in WWI. He was in a depot for a total of 9 days, fired three shots and was of to France the 10th day. I dont know how many days he spent training there before he was in a trench.