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#2
12-14-2012, 10:22 PM
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My major concern here is that once Europe, Korea and the Middle East really ramp up and losses start piling up (particularly in the latter half of 1997 when NATO was in full retreat and loosing entire Divisions one after the other), a concerted effort would be made to send out "scroungers" to round up all these vehicles, or at the very least tally up what is where in order to requisition them later on if things get REALLY bad (which they obviously did, but post nuke there's not exactly much of an organised "procurement" organisation left).
Some pieces of equipment are likely to escape being swept back into service, sure, but if the handful of us here on this forum are aware of what is potentially out there, I'm fairly sure somebody in the military, hell even the civilian government, is going to start thinking along the same lines and DO something about it. Many vehicles, etc aren't going to be suitable for the front lines - who in their right mind wants to send an old M4 to Europe in 1997? However, anything deemed useful isn't likely to get easily overlooked. Therefore, WWII and maybe Korea era equipment may be found with the state guard and militia, but anything newer is sure to be exceptionally unique.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem 
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#3
12-15-2012, 02:29 PM
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The army has people spending weeks driving around looking for old tanks. Then, after one is actually found, they have to get a truck and a special trailer to come up from Kentucky (three days drive) to get it. AND if its not running, you'll need a tank recovery vehicle to drag or push it. AND that vehicle will need a second truck and special trailer to bring it up from Kentucky to Ludlow, Vermont, to bring it back as well. AND don't forget that someone has got to keep them fueled. AND on top of that, these tanks ARENT OWNED by the army, they are sitting on the property book of the state. So even if the army decided they wanted to try and pull rank, its totally unrealistic. Are you familiar with the US Army Vehicle guide? Whole infantry divisions were getting attacked by bandits. How are two tractor trailers towing a tank recovery vehicle, mechanics, and some other vehicles with stills going to drive 3 days through bandit country because some private found a tank?
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#4
12-15-2012, 10:30 PM
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Does it matter how far away an army base is if it's a non-military, government agency tracking them down? :s Am I misunderstanding things here? Are we talking about just one vehicle in a depot waiting for conversion to lawn ornament, or closer to the impression I'm getting from reading this thread, a collection of a dozen or so plus miscellaneous equipment abandoned/cast off/declared obsolete and surplus pre war? If the latter, then these depots represent a significant resource which should not be overlooked. We also know that the military/government is able and willing to requisition equipment and supplies during wartime - they've done it before and will do it again. Therefore, the "paper" ownership of these items is a completely moot point. Take for example the notes for B2: Cadillac Gage Stingray. Quote:
If Stingrays, a vehicle which the US military didn't even have on it's books beforehand were being requisitioned and sent to the front, why would the "surplus" M1s, M60's, M48's, etc, etc, etc be ignored? It might well take a while to track them down, but records surely exist somewhere regarding disposal of these items? How hard would it be pre-nuke to carry out a simple computer search and find where they are supposed to be, then send out a couple of men in cars to confirm it? Would these vehicles have necessarily been sent to the front? I doubt it. BUT, as training vehicles, both for crew members and technicians (who could pull apart one of these recovered vehicles without fear of breaking something that was actually NEEDED on the front lines) they would be invaluable (take for example the Sentinel tank in WWII which although combat worthy never saw combat, but was used for training). Once these vehicles were found, civilian contractors could be engaged to transport them to these training areas - a logging contractor for example with a low loader may find themselves shifting an M60 instead of the usual bull dozer. Use of these contractors will not have a significant negative impact on the overall troop mobilisation - they're outside the usual logistical network already operating overtime to shift tens, hundreds of thousands of troops to the docks and airports. So in conclusion, efforts were clearly made to round up anything useful to the war effort. In wartime, the Federal government comes first, superseding any claims State or Local organisations have (although I'm sure there'd have to be payments, or promises of payments made). Not every vehicle/equipment would be rounded up, but it's very unlikely there'd be any relatively modern MBTs floating about for the State Guard/militia to lay their hands on. As a side note, in WWII, all shrapnel from German bombs dropped on England was considered to be government property and was to be handed in for recycling immediately (although many kids illegally kept what they found as souvenirs). Numerous drives were made to collect scrap metal and just about anything else which could aid the war effort. In WWIII, would an M60A2 elude a similar round up if mere scrap in WWII was valued so highly?
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#5
12-15-2012, 11:03 PM
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the difference in the Scrapmetal drives of then and now... is the fact that there are vast fields of scrapmetal at salvage yards that would have been stirpped before they got around to looking for those armored vehicles, aircraft and the like setting out from of VFWs, American Legion Huts and Disabled American Veteran Chapter houses... or even those out front of various local armories across the country.
And by the time the scrapmetal drives were being made in the Twilight War timelines, the nuclear exchanges had already been made. And by then, the local authorities would have pulled those systems out and gotten them up and running to protect themselves... and really tough biker types whom become bandits would have gotten their hands on them during this period as well. history has shown that there are alot of varibles in play, and it's hard to say where anything will fall when it's time to cash in those chips.
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Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#6
12-15-2012, 11:31 PM
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Well, as usual, everyone is entitled to do whatever they want in their own game world.
For me though, I just don't believe it's possible these sorts of resources would be completely forgotten about and ignored in the almost twelve months of full scale warfare before continental US was nuked and conditions deteriorated past the point where it was possible to find and recover these things. The war starts going against NATO literally MONTHS before the US is nuked and there's a clear and desperate NEED for heavy equipment for the front lines. Overlooking AFVs so new that their cousins are still in service is, in my mind at least, absolutely criminal!
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#7
12-15-2012, 11:40 PM
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The AFVs in question that we're talking about are the ones that are "off-the-books" and not recored as being in the system... and thus considered to be decommissioned and very possibly scrapped. Now AFVs that had been decommissioned within a year or two year period would be the ones that would be in the 'recall' to be requisitioned from their civilian owners (or even from those State Guard and local militia units that own and operate them). Hell, they would requistion Armored Cars that transport valuables since as we're seeing... those vehicles are damn good at being resistant to roadside boombs and anti-vhiecle landmines.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#8
12-19-2012, 02:41 PM
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Anything pre-M113 or pre-M48 series tank would essentially be irrelevant and more trouble than they're worth, even as training vehicles due to the logistics piece and other issues I've discussed concerning my opinion about resurrecting things like WW2 vintage armor for Twilight War service in other threads. Now, post nuke changes things, and state NG organizations are probably the most likely operators of wacky vintage armor -- as discussed above they might have access to parts (or additional vehicles to part out) and mechanics who, while not school house trained on the vintage equipment had been able to tinker with it. The collapse of the nationwide distribution network is going to be less of a show stopper at the state level (well, at least the smaller ones -- places like Texas and California are probably a mess for state-level lines of communications post TDM). How long they could actually keep anything resurrected from the bone yard running is an open question with the usual answer probably mostly being "not very long." Even without ammo for main guns and such, however, being able to park a tank shaped object in places of heavy civil disturbance during the winter 97-98 would help restore or maintain order. By 2000, though, I'd guess that most vintage armor the states may have been able to put back in operation are back to essentially static display status like the non-functional tanks turned into turreted bunkers around Krakow. Even without main gun ammo it looks scary, and a turreted coax machinegun can lock down an entry control point even if it is subject to sporadic sniper fire and other harassment that might make guys manning gun towers iffy. (Additional observation about NG and weird stuff still in inventory -- during the early 90s I served with a couple guys who were WW2 reenactors who noticed a pair of half tracks lurking in the back corner of the AL ARNG UTES cite at Ft McClellan/Pelham Range. They were definitely in the fixer-upper category, but those two guys spent some time climbing around on them and thought they could probably put together one working vehicle from what was present. Or at least "working" in the relatively low demand context of WW2 reenactment. They tried asking around with the UTES personnel on what the actual ownership status of the halftracks was, since there is a market in the reenactment community for that sort of thing, but I think their research never got further than the "hell if I know" answers they got from guys who worked there.)
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#9
12-15-2012, 02:30 PM
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