How dark is the future of the Morrow Project

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Well the Rich Five had access to a lot of the same tech the Morrow Project had so there was some crossover, though probably more of the industrial espionage variety.

That was always my assumption - it seems like if they had anything close to full access to the Project that they would both more tech and also more knowledge/control over Project resources in their territory.

One alternate idea that I toyed with was reverse industrial espionage - perhaps the Rich Five originated cryogenics, and Morrow poached it from them!

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Another option is Krell who was a member of the Project I believe.

Is that ever said anywhere? Krell always seemed like a deliberate mystery, like even the authors had not decided who he was and how he got his information on the Project.

Originally Posted by stormlion1

But honestly the home team fumbling the ball is the most believable of them all. It happens all the time.

Sure, but something as important as that code would have been checked and rechecked and tested and retested. A big programming error by one dying, rushed programmer makes sense, but this would have been much less likely. It absolutely could have happened, but like I said, I personally prefer the enemy action option because it adds capability to the enemy and makes them a bigger opponent for the players to eventually deal with.

But it does not hugely impact the game, unlike the massive, widespread incompetence implied in the canon 3ed fall of the Project.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Sure, but something as important as that code would have been checked and rechecked and tested and retested.

You would hope, but testing only goes so far. I was part of one of the largest IT failures in history (700 million dollars with literally nothing to show for it). We had 500 plus programmers who did a tremendous amount of unit testing but when everything was integrated, a system which was supposed to handle all the communication for 1500 locations was reduced to 4 bytes per minute rather than the multiple megs per second that were promised.

[stormlion1]

Same here, my brief employment as a Computer Programmer was a colossal failure due to a team of twenty working on a project, debugging and reviewing the program we worked on for months and we never did get it to work right. The problem was that it did work, it passed every test we threw at it, but when it needed to work 'in the field' it failed every time.
And no one could figure it out. We had other teams look at it, we had outside contractors look at it. We even gave it to a school and hoped a fresh perspective from some students would find the problem. And no one ever figured it out.
The project was scrapped soon after and I decided that several months of frustration was it and looked for other work. Plus honestly I doubted my ability's at that point pretty badly.

[RandyT0001]

From the 4th edition, p.27

As a failsafe, an alternate base was constructed, so that the teams could be revived even if some unforeseen catastrophe overwhelmed Prime Base.

P. 22

From there (firearms training) trainees progress through a series of steadily more realistic situations, practicing contact and stoppage drills in both rural environments and in a custom built "town" on one of the projects training sites.

P. 23

The final element of basic training is the "civics" course, intended to teach the team how to deal with and rebuild communities they encounter.
It covers everything from physical infrastructure, through law enforcement training, to how to hold fair elections.

So it seems that TMP did have a back up base but the question is what happened to it - captured by Krell? Subverted by the Frozen Chosen?

So each team member has training on how to make contact with post-war (at 5 years after the war) locals.

In addition each team member has training on the basic needs of a community, food, water, shelter, clothing, sanitation, etc. and they know enough about law enforcement to be able to teach it to others.

[stormlion1]

I'm guessing the Back Up base was the base captured by Krell but whomever was stationed there may have nerfed it a bit when it was captured. Krell may have gotten the cryogenic pods and the armorys but the C&C was destroyed.

[cosmicfish]

I think the reason there aren't consistent, canonical answers on Krell is because they never decided on any. They wanted to avoid committing to an answer until they were ready to write something where it was needed. Unfortunately, they missed the point that the truth about Krell (and so many other people and groups) was needed to understand the history and present of the Project.

So make up an answer that makes you happy, because they aren't going to do it until they are ready to write the "take down Krell" module... which is never going to happen.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I am curious... where does it indicate that the Rich Five were on the Council of Tomorrow? I always understood that they were able to steal some information from TMP, but the lower level of technology implied that they lacked the kind of access that Council membership should have provided.

I haven't ignored your question....... I just haven't found an answer in Canon materials.

Bullets and Bluegrass tells us that the Rich Five had Cryosleep technology before the War on their own. Canon states that the Cryosleep technology was in use by the Project, the U.S. government (Canada too, with Snake Eaters), the Frozen Chosen, and the Rich Five.

This way we infer that the Rich Five, as industrialists, had to be part of the Council of Tomorrow, or the Corporations responsible for Cryosleep research or production...... Cryosleep research begins in the 1960s with animal research (Fallback), though principal researchers, corporation, and places of production are not named.

I will continue to have a look through the modules, I think the answer is there.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I think the reason there aren't consistent, canonical answers on Krell is because they never decided on any. They wanted to avoid committing to an answer until they were ready to write something where it was needed. Unfortunately, they missed the point that the truth about Krell (and so many other people and groups) was needed to understand the history and present of the Project.

So make up an answer that makes you happy, because they aren't going to do it until they are ready to write the "take down Krell" module... which is never going to happen.

It is one of the most problematical situations of the back story. Krell has an empire but, is defeated by the Morrow Project. The Project in the form of Prime Base opens up and constructs Paiute place to test if the goals and hopes of the Project can be realized. Krell forces infect Prime Base with a lethal bioweapon that has enough infectious period without symptoms to ensure everyone in Prime Base has it. Krell forces using a nuclear bomb destroy Paiute place and believe that Prime Base is sealed under rubble. Paiute Place is built using materials, equipment, and supplies from Prime Base but, the huge exterior doors to the vehicle bay and warehouse were never uncovered. Krell goes on to war with the Project destroying several bases. Krell forces have captured one base intact and Krell uses this to cryosleep for a few decades, then come out and conquer some more. The Krell territory is in the upper midwest. Krell has a ship and a crew with warriors sailing in the Pacific and a threat to Seattle and the *censored* in Seattle for "Final Watch".....

Ummm, welcome to the Labyrinth...... Causes happen before the effects.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Bullets and Bluegrass tells us that the Rich Five had Cryosleep technology before the War on their own. Canon states that the Cryosleep technology was in use by the Project, the U.S. government (Canada too, with Snake Eaters), the Frozen Chosen, and the Rich Five.

This way we infer that the Rich Five, as industrialists, had to be part of the Council of Tomorrow, or the Corporations responsible for Cryosleep research or production...... Cryosleep research begins in the 1960s with animal research (Fallback), though principal researchers, corporation, and places of production are not named.

The Rich Five, Frozen Chosen, and the Snake Eaters are all indicated as having cryo technology in the 3ed core rulebook, it is never indicated which direction technology was flowing, or how. We can surmise anything we want, but the US government sure wasn't on the CoT and they had cryo technology! Again, it seems that if the Rich Five were on the CoT they would have more Morrow technology and enough information to make sure that every team was already dead before becoming a problem. More likely (to me) is that the Rich Five included the contractors developing cryo tech for the government prior to the war. The Chosen Frozen stole it (good old industrial espionage), as did Bruce Morrow, who took the tech back in time and used it as the foundation for the Project's more refined systems.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Ummm, welcome to the Labyrinth...... Causes happen before the effects.

It's a Krell of a problem.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

It's a Krell of a problem.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I like it. Unlike the last offering, this is being marketed towards a military market which suggests that it is better suited to the Morrow mission. The only problem I would have with this beasty would be coming up with a cover story for why you are transporting hundreds or thousands of these around the US pre-war.

Hundreds, Yes; thousands, No.

Typically, rail to a depot with a railyard. Then under canvas to the bolt hole.

For inspection purposes, there is a data plate on the driver side door jamb and a VIN plate like any other vehicle. These identifiers are listed with the DMV and titled as demonstration units for sale purposes.

Cops and DOT inspector would look for those and wouldn't be looking for serial numbers anywhere else.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Hundreds, Yes; thousands, No.

Depending on the size of the Project, there might be thousands!

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Typically, rail to a depot with a railyard. Then under canvas to the bolt hole.

For inspection purposes, there is a data plate on the driver side door jamb and a VIN plate like any other vehicle. These identifiers are listed with the DMV and titled as demonstration units for sale purposes.

Cops and DOT inspector would look for those and wouldn't be looking for serial numbers anywhere else.

Sure, but it is going to be next to impossible to keep eyes off of these vehicles - they are just too bulky and conspicuous, and orchestrating the movement of all these vehicles is going to be tricky. Of course, we already know that the existence of the Project was already compromised by the time of the war, perhaps this is how!

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Depending on the size of the Project, there might be thousands!

I am in the camp that the Project only has a few hundred personnel. Due to all the security constraints and that people accepted would have to give up their lives and family, worse without warning them or aiding them for the impending, inevitable war. I do think that CG Seattle is indicative of a Combined Group. I don't think the Project would bother half staffing anywhere. I think the will fill a region at a time, starting with regions with the highest probability of recovery according to the plan.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Sure, but it is going to be next to impossible to keep eyes off of these vehicles - they are just too bulky and conspicuous, and orchestrating the movement of all these vehicles is going to be tricky. Of course, we already know that the existence of the Project was already compromised by the time of the war, perhaps this is how!

I don't think so...... Your average civilian has no idea what they are looking at. Any thing with tracks is a tank, for example.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I am in the camp that the Project only has a few hundred personnel. Due to all the security constraints and that people accepted would have to give up their lives and family, worse without warning them or aiding them for the impending, inevitable war.

I agree that those are serious issues, but I do not think that it is an impossible challenge considering the sheer population of the country and the time scale of recruiting. I also think that the recruiting process is likely to be in stages that allow the Project to not only identify but actively groom and indoctrinate prospective members.

Importantly, I just do not see a Project of a few hundred or even a few thousand making any real dent in the post-war problems. There are just too few of them, spread too thin. Even if nothing goes wrong, they are going to have a heck of a time providing any level of service, and being so few they would be tremendously vulnerable to any number of problems. It's just a bad bet. With a few hundred people, think of how few experts in any given field you really have, and think about how easy it is then to lose entire disciplines (as an example).

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I do think that CG Seattle is indicative of a Combined Group. I don't think the Project would bother half staffing anywhere. I think the will fill a region at a time, starting with regions with the highest probability of recovery according to the plan.

I am not sure how this works then - if CG Seattle is typical for the population it serves, are you saying that the Project is only distributed across portions of the country? If CG Seattle was serving a pre-war population of 1.4 million (King County, in 1987) then 10 such combined groups (790 field staff) would serve only 5.8% of the 1987 US population of 242.3 million.

It is hard for me to believe that Morrow hoped to have any real impact with such a low level of coverage.

[ArmySGT.]

In all these cases I expect the Project to be heavily recruiting from the survivors to fill out the thousands of jobs that are not highly skilled or needed a someone frozen before the War.

I expect the Project to move into an area, establish a refugee camp from pre-positioned supplies, recruit from the refugees persons with competent skills or abilities. Then expect them to depart to start another camp somewhere else. This with detachments moving about trying to get essential service like water treatment and sewerage operational, to establish a clinic and staff this with surviving medical personnel. Etc.

I don't expect them to do it. I expect them to provide the materials and a kick in the ass to get it started.

Then I expect them to protect said from marauders and politicians both most likely to plunder a recovery effort.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

In all these cases I expect the Project to be heavily recruiting from the survivors to fill out the thousands of jobs that are not highly skilled or needed a someone frozen before the War.

I expect that too, but it is like the F550 parts issue - if you are expecting 98% of the population to die in the war, how much can you depend on finding experts to recruit in any given area? Especially if, as you mention below, you are taking your time getting to that area?

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I expect the Project to move into an area, establish a refugee camp from pre-positioned supplies, recruit from the refugees persons with competent skills or abilities. Then expect them to depart to start another camp somewhere else. This with detachments moving about trying to get essential service like water treatment and sewerage operational, to establish a clinic and staff this with surviving medical personnel. Etc.

How long do you expect them to spend in each area? Realistically, even if you work every Project member for the rest of their lives (hard for recruiting) you won't have much time with any one population before you would have to either move on or abandon your goal of covering the US. And incidentally, you have every reason to expect that areas waiting on Morrow teams to arrive are going to see ongoing deaths and loss of resources - take too long to get to an area and there might not be anyone left to help!

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Then I expect them to protect said from marauders and politicians both most likely to plunder a recovery effort.

I think this is the biggest issue I have. If you assume a surviving population of just 1%, you have 2,423,000 survivors. If just 1%* of those are problematic, then you have TMP dealing with 24,230 "problem" people. The game provides numerous examples of large groups 150 years post-war who still have significant military hardware, I cannot imagine how the Project would deal with a dispersed array of military forces 20+ times their own number. Even with Phoenix that is a tall order, and considering that they are likely only supported by maybe 80** MARS teamers and 200*** Recon teamers, they are really outnumbered more like 80 to one, combatant-to-combatant. And no one knows about Phoenix.

Plus remember that you have to deal with protecting your entire force, which is going to rapidly become publicly known and spread across 3.8 million square miles. With the few aircraft available, you are spread too thin to protect anyone, and we've already seen how quickly people will turn to tyrants who provide security over good people who can't.

Going back to the recruiting problem, I would think this to be one of the biggest issues - recruiting people to save the world is hard enough without one of them doing the math and realizing that it is a suicide mission.


*: Personally, I would expect a lot more than 1% to be problematic - murderers and militants have pretty good survival instincts.

**: Based on CG Seattle. And remember that half will be tasked as protective details for Science teams.

***: Also based on CG Seattle.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I expect that too, but it is like the F550 parts issue - if you are expecting 98% of the population to die in the war, how much can you depend on finding experts to recruit in any given area? Especially if, as you mention below, you are taking your time getting to that area?

I didn't mean engineers and cardiac surgeons..... I meant people capable of running a village with a little jumpstart..... The Project isn't going to be able to dictate who is in or out by much. Still at 3-5 years your going to find electricians, plumbers, warehouse managers, policemen, chefs, hoteliers, green house operators and local politicians and a host of people that can learn.

I can't believe truly unskilled people are going to be around at 3-5 years.

Your right, you cannot plan for every contingency. You can't recruit people on the scaled needed to rebuild a large metro area either. You spread it around and create a system of villages,that make them interdependent and cooperative.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

How long do you expect them to spend in each area? Realistically, even if you work every Project member for the rest of their lives (hard for recruiting) you won't have much time with any one population before you would have to either move on or abandon your goal of covering the US. And incidentally, you have every reason to expect that areas waiting on Morrow teams to arrive are going to see ongoing deaths and loss of resources - take too long to get to an area and there might not be anyone left to help!

One to two weeks tops. Jumpstart, get it going, and leave it in the hands of locally recruited competent persons.... The survivor population is going to elect and follow their own, unless the Project is installing a dictatorship and shooting dissenters.

Forget about controlling it. Deliver the equipment, install it, and bring in the survivors. The survivors will self identify and it will shake itself out.

The Project has more important tasks like water treatment plants and power plants..... Things that will speed recovery by orders of magnitude.

Don't fret about village level politics.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I think this is the biggest issue I have. If you assume a surviving population of just 1%, you have 2,423,000 survivors. If just 1%* of those are problematic, then you have TMP dealing with 24,230 "problem" people. The game provides numerous examples of large groups 150 years post-war who still have significant military hardware, I cannot imagine how the Project would deal with a dispersed array of military forces 20+ times their own number. Even with Phoenix that is a tall order, and considering that they are likely only supported by maybe 80** MARS teamers and 200*** Recon teamers, they are really outnumbered more like 80 to one, combatant-to-combatant. And no one knows about Phoenix.

Plus remember that you have to deal with protecting your entire force, which is going to rapidly become publicly known and spread across 3.8 million square miles. With the few aircraft available, you are spread too thin to protect anyone, and we've already seen how quickly people will turn to tyrants who provide security over good people who can't.

Going back to the recruiting problem, I would think this to be one of the biggest issues - recruiting people to save the world is hard enough without one of them doing the math and realizing that it is a suicide mission.


*: Personally, I would expect a lot more than 1% to be problematic - murderers and militants have pretty good survival instincts.

**: Based on CG Seattle. And remember that half will be tasked as protective details for Science teams.

***: Also based on CG Seattle.

That has so many variables it can be argued anyway either of us wants to spin it. How many come over when there is a warm bed and food on the table?

I leave it to MARS, the Snake Eaters, surviving .gov assets, and frankly the survivors populating the recovery site who know damn well what they stand to lose.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I didn't mean engineers and cardiac surgeons..... I meant people capable of running a village with a little jumpstart..... The Project isn't going to be able to dictate who is in or out by much. Still at 3-5 years your going to find electricians, plumbers, warehouse managers, policemen, chefs, hoteliers, green house operators and local politicians and a host of people that can learn.

I can't believe truly unskilled people are going to be around at 3-5 years.

I think you overestimate the number of "skilled" people in this country, compared to the number of people who answer phones or wait tables or groom dogs or any of the thousands of occupations that earn people money but do not necessarily translate well to a post-apocalyptic setting. I also think that even people with useful skills are going to be at a competitive disadvantage for years compared to people whose primary skills are simply survival.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

One to two weeks tops. Jumpstart, get it going, and leave it in the hands of locally recruited competent persons...

So... you see the Project as basically showing up, dumping a set of gear, and leaving after showing them how to turn it on? Then why bother with the college degrees? Why bother with psychological and civil affairs teams (who will take months or years to see a result with any particular population)? Heck, the basic challenge of reconnoitering and securing an area is going to take substantially longer than 1-2 weeks! I would expect marauders to just follow the groups around, pillaging those untrained and unprotected villages as fast as Morrow leaves!

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Forget about controlling it. Deliver the equipment, install it, and bring in the survivors. The survivors will self identify and it will shake itself out.

That is a lot more callous approach to aid than I can imagine working. I also think that a lot of Morrow equipment is effectively irreplaceable, and giving it over to a bunch of shoe salesmen and hoping they will figure it out is more than a bit optimistic.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The Project has more important tasks like water treatment plants and power plants..... Things that will speed recovery by orders of magnitude.

Those are indeed very important, but they are also large-scale projects that will take a long time to implement for even a small area - Morrow is not building and maintaining a national power grid in the first year, probably not in the first 5.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Don't fret about village level politics.

You have to worry about any level of politics that has control over equipment/supplies you are distributing and/or that has the ability to pose a threat. CG Seattle has 79 people. A modest village that knows the lay of the land and has spent 5 years fighting for survival might be one election away from being the exact kind of militia that can take down a bunch of idealists who eventually have to leave the V-150 to urinate.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

That has so many variables it can be argued anyway either of us wants to spin it. How many come over when there is a warm bed and food on the table?

There are a lot of variables in there, but I was being far, far more favorable to the Project in my estimates than I actually think realistic. At any given time in this country, we have about a third of a percent of our population incarcerated not counting those still going through the courts, those released, and those simply not yet caught. Add to that the opportunists and other types who won't commit a crime in a "civilized" society but who turn wolf after missing a couple of meals, and one percent seems awfully darned low to me.

It's an odds game. You cannot handle every contingency, but you can't just ignore them either, you have to prepare for enough challenges to have a solid chance of success, and considering that this is a completely unknown set of challenges I can't see doing this in a minimalist manner and expecting anything other than disaster. When you are stretched so thin, there are just too many things that can go wrong and take you down, and why would TMP accept that?

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

How many come over when there is a warm bed and food on the table?

When you provide no security, no policing, and no permanence, probably not that many. Five years post war I would expect that vast majority to have formed small, tight communities that do not trust outsiders and are not likely to accept the brigands' promises to be good in return for three hots and a cot. It is going to take more than a few weeks for a bunch of educated novices to take a population scattered and changed by years of post-war struggles, identify and filter out the "bad eggs", and integrate the rest.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I leave it to MARS, the Snake Eaters, surviving .gov assets, and frankly the survivors populating the recovery site who know damn well what they stand to lose.

Per your staffing level, MARS would be less than 100 people for the entire country, the Snake Eaters are unknown to the pre-war Project and may be hostile even post-war, other surviving government assets may or may not be the exact enemy you are fighting against, and the survivors likely lack the weapons or training to protect anything that anyone else really wants to take.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I think you overestimate the number of "skilled" people in this country, compared to the number of people who answer phones or wait tables or groom dogs or any of the thousands of occupations that earn people money but do not necessarily translate well to a post-apocalyptic setting. I also think that even people with useful skills are going to be at a competitive disadvantage for years compared to people whose primary skills are simply survival.

I think you vastly UNDERestimate the number of skilled survivors. Sure nuclear bombs and biowarfare do not discriminate but, nature is harsh. If you didn’t have any skills one day after the war, you were dead by day seven. People with skills were valuable to one another, they were valuable to anyone with even some advantage.

Define a skill like survival in a post apocalypse anyway. Finding clean water? Finding canned goods and wild berries? Knowing which way is north? Fishing in uncontaminated streams? Killing people with something, so you can go one more day?

We know that in every case hunter gatherer cultures remained small and ineffective at holding terrain versus static agrarian cultures. By year 3-5 the survivalists have looted all the food from stores, depots, and small survivor groups. They have burned through their ammo and lost their most aggressive members to wounds.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

So... you see the Project as basically showing up, dumping a set of gear, and leaving after showing them how to turn it on? Then why bother with the college degrees? Why bother with psychological and civil affairs teams (who will take months or years to see a result with any particular population)? Heck, the basic challenge of reconnoitering and securing an area is going to take substantially longer than 1-2 weeks! I would expect marauders to just follow the groups around, pillaging those untrained and unprotected villages as fast as Morrow leaves!

I see the project arriving at a suitable location probably a small town that already exists. They leave some alcohol powered generators, two way base station radio, drill a well, stock a clinic, gather people and have the people hold an election. By 3-5 years the weak and those incapable of defending themselves are dead and gone or they have learned.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

That is a lot more callous approach to aid than I can imagine working. I also think that a lot of Morrow equipment is effectively irreplaceable, and giving it over to a bunch of shoe salesmen and hoping they will figure it out is more than a bit optimistic.

After 3-5 years the survivors know a hell of a lot more about surviving than any Morrow Project member has ever learned.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Those are indeed very important, but they are also large-scale projects that will take a long time to implement for even a small area - Morrow is not building and maintaining a national power grid in the first year, probably not in the first 5.

Those are the hubs you start building from. You don’t need to bring the municipal water system for the greater Seattle area online or any other major city for that matter. Every small town has a water treatment plant that has been isolated by the loss of the national power grid. It needs some techs to make it run, power, and the right chemicals. That is where you start.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

You have to worry about any level of politics that has control over equipment/supplies you are distributing and/or that has the ability to pose a threat. CG Seattle has 79 people. A modest village that knows the lay of the land and has spent 5 years fighting for survival might be one election away from being the exact kind of militia that can take down a bunch of idealists who eventually have to leave the V-150 to urinate.

If they were that way before Project personnel were to make contact then that would be apparent. Recon and specialist Psyops teams would have effectively identified these groups.

You can’t stand over these villages and hold them hostage to your preferred form of government. That isn’t what the Project is about and it ties up Project members like MARS indefinitely.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

There are a lot of variables in there, but I was being far, far more favorable to the Project in my estimates than I actually think realistic. At any given time in this country, we have about a third of a percent of our population incarcerated not counting those still going through the courts, those released, and those simply not yet caught. Add to that the opportunists and other types who won't commit a crime in a "civilized" society but who turn wolf after missing a couple of meals, and one percent seems awfully darned low to me.

By year three these guys have starved to death and died of exposure. These career criminals definitely are violent predators but, they don’t know a blessed thing about providing for themselves. When all the stores and depots are looted these guys become cannibals and later die.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

It's an odds game. You cannot handle every contingency, but you can't just ignore them either, you have to prepare for enough challenges to have a solid chance of success, and considering that this is a completely unknown set of challenges I can't see doing this in a minimalist manner and expecting anything other than disaster. When you are stretched so thin, there are just too many things that can go wrong and take you down, and why would TMP accept that?

Because the Project isn’t a conquering army ready to set things right for God and Justice….. They have limited personnel and lots of resources.

A village is built, the people moved in, and 10 miles away another is built. These are set up to mutually trade and mutually assist. One have the mechanics and the dentist, the other the electricians and the doctor.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

When you provide no security, no policing, and no permanence, probably not that many. Five years post war I would expect that vast majority to have formed small, tight communities that do not trust outsiders and are not likely to accept the brigands' promises to be good in return for three hots and a cot. It is going to take more than a few weeks for a bunch of educated novices to take a population scattered and changed by years of post-war struggles, identify and filter out the "bad eggs", and integrate the rest.

I expect few brigands to be left. The hostiles are a few of these villages that are hostile to other groups and raid for what they don’t have. However, once they can get what they need without being killed trying to take it, that will be incentive enough.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Per your staffing level, MARS would be less than 100 people for the entire country, the Snake Eaters are unknown to the pre-war Project and may be hostile even post-war, other surviving government assets may or may not be the exact enemy you are fighting against, and the survivors likely lack the weapons or training to protect anything that anyone else really wants to take.

That is better than a Morrow Project of 20,000 that is 1% science, 9% recon, and 90% MARS.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

The Rich Five, Frozen Chosen, and the Snake Eaters are all indicated as having cryo technology in the 3ed core rulebook, it is never indicated which direction technology was flowing, or how. We can surmise anything we want, but the US government sure wasn't on the CoT and they had cryo technology! Again, it seems that if the Rich Five were on the CoT they would have more Morrow technology and enough information to make sure that every team was already dead before becoming a problem. More likely (to me) is that the Rich Five included the contractors developing cryo tech for the government prior to the war. The Chosen Frozen stole it (good old industrial espionage), as did Bruce Morrow, who took the tech back in time and used it as the foundation for the Project's more refined systems.

More background on the Morrow Project Cryosleep program is outlined briefly in "Fallback" stating that the Project was experimenting with this tech as far back as the 1960s.

[mmartin798]

The 1960's era cryosleep was mentioned in the 3rd edition rules stating plainly that the Project perfected the science of cryogenics early in 1964. It also fits well with my picks for the Counsel of Tomorrow members and the Rich 5, since I include Charles F Adams IV, Chairman of Raytheon from 1960-1962 and 1964-1975. Raytheon purchased Amana Refrigeration in 1965 and bundled their microwave technology under the Amana name for the consumer market. As the canon description of the cryosleep process mention the use of microwaves to inhibit ice formation, it just worked for me.

As for how the US government got cryosleep, I suggest secret DARPA project. When cryonics got started in the late 1950's and early 1960's, there was one experiment where a rat was frozen to 0 Celsius and reanimated with microwaves in 1955. So no need for the US Government to have stolen it, just throw money and researchers at it.

[bobcat]

honestly i don't see this darkness that everyone keeps painting. yes the project failed(for any of a dozen plausible reasons listed) but even with that failure there are still survivors who the teams can help. as for the teams only spending a few weeks in an area that would be silly hen you think about it. each of the teams is given an AOR and generally put in a bolthole fairly central to their area of responsibility. this is done so that even if completely cut off they can still accomplish their small piece of the mission. one should also consider that the project wouldn't really be recruiting many "well adjusted" people. those who would be well adjusted to civilization would die rather quickly with civilization taken away. they would recruit and select people who could operate individually or in small teams with little external guidance because in a nuclear war and the aftermath thereof anything could happen. teams would carry out their initial orders, react to their unique situations, make reasonable attempts to contact their next higher headquarters, and mostly stay in their AOR. if each team spends a few weeks in each village or settlement, helps where they can, and keeps running a circuit within their AOR, it won't be that long until they can establish a more permanent patrol base and just send out help as it is needed.

it's no darker really than life as a colonist back in the old days, brighter in fact because at least the teams know that even in extreme contingencies they have a chance. compare that to the donner party.

[cosmicfish]

I think you are missing a lot of the problems. Ignoring the massive losses of people due to the Project's absence, the Project was depending on the knowledge and resources available immediately after the war, and without those resources the Project will see a lot of people suffer or die that otherwise could have been saved.

Worse, the intervening century and a half has given despots like the Rich Five and Krell time to entrench themselves and flourish, meaning that an organization designed to bring order out of chaos must now also serve as an insurgency. The Project can still defeat them (presumably) but again, how many more (Project and civilian) will be lost?

The Project has lost both it's leadership and a decent chunk of its membership, and has awoken into a world vastly different than the one they were expecting with challenges that are both far greater and different in nature compared to their original mission. Given that the Project's remaining resources are never spelled out, it really is not possible to know whether or not they will be able to succeed or even survive.

[bobcat]

don't get me wrong it's still a Charlie Foxtrot but the project wasn't going to save anyone. 5 years after the bombs drop almost everyone that was going to die from it will have already died. 150 years after they drop there's a larger population pool to work with. Project losses from the KFS are, of course, problematic but even in KFS territory there are still teams that can be awakened per canon. Krell is a threat but per cannon they lack the ability to work without leadership, a handicap that the Morrow Project personnel lack. the only group better prepared for the situation than the teams of the Morrow Project would be the snake eaters and only by merit of having more training time before they were put on ice.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by bobcat

don't get me wrong it's still a Charlie Foxtrot but the project wasn't going to save anyone.

Then what was the point??

Originally Posted by bobcat

5 years after the bombs drop almost everyone that was going to die from it will have already died.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Not only do you have people suffering from the direct (cancer, chemical poisoning, military/militia/criminal violence) and indirect (nuclear winter reducing crop yields) consequences of the war, you also have the negative health effects from the absence of modern technologies and materials that save so many lives every year in the US alone. These are all issues that TMP was intended to mitigate.

Originally Posted by bobcat

150 years after they drop there's a larger population pool to work with.

Yes, but they are, by and large, a population pool with an education that would be underwhelming in the old west. TMP now has to educate the population up to the level where they can even be effective in helping themselves... and they were never trained to do that! 5 million (or however many survivors there were) people with a modern education are going to be able to produce a lot better quality (and duration!) of life than 100 million people with a 19th century education. Can you imagine how hard it is to explain public health to people who have no concept of the idea? Or of how hard it is to convince people who HAVE slaves that it is not okay?

Originally Posted by bobcat

Project losses from the KFS are, of course, problematic but even in KFS territory there are still teams that can be awakened per canon. Krell is a threat but per cannon they lack the ability to work without leadership, a handicap that the Morrow Project personnel lack. the only group better prepared for the situation than the teams of the Morrow Project would be the snake eaters and only by merit of having more training time before they were put on ice.

KFS is a much tougher foe than you give them credit for. In 3E at least KFS has more than 10,000 trained soldiers (not counting Air Force or Secret Police), a complete (if small) combined-arms military, as well as the ability to draft even more if necessary from their own populace. Their headquarters is under a mountain. They will be an extremely difficult nut to crack even for a fully-functional Project.

As for Krell, what are the odds that the Project starts wide-scale activation and he doesn't get a wake-up call? And the Project lost their entire headquarters, so even with full activation their leadership is pretty handicapped.

The Snake Eaters should not be a large problem. First because they are relatively few in number, second because they are more likely to align with TMP than oppose it. Worst case they are likely to partner up with TMP and then try and steer it more towards where they want the country to go... because that is exactly what they started training to do in SF in the first place!

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by bobcat

honestly i don't see this darkness that everyone keeps painting. yes the project failed(for any of a dozen plausible reasons listed) but even with that failure there are still survivors who the teams can help. as for the teams only spending a few weeks in an area that would be silly hen you think about it. each of the teams is given an AOR and generally put in a bolthole fairly central to their area of responsibility. this is done so that even if completely cut off they can still accomplish their small piece of the mission. one should also consider that the project wouldn't really be recruiting many "well adjusted" people. those who would be well adjusted to civilization would die rather quickly with civilization taken away. they would recruit and select people who could operate individually or in small teams with little external guidance because in a nuclear war and the aftermath thereof anything could happen. teams would carry out their initial orders, react to their unique situations, make reasonable attempts to contact their next higher headquarters, and mostly stay in their AOR. if each team spends a few weeks in each village or settlement, helps where they can, and keeps running a circuit within their AOR, it won't be that long until they can establish a more permanent patrol base and just send out help as it is needed.

it's no darker really than life as a colonist back in the old days, brighter in fact because at least the teams know that even in extreme contingencies they have a chance. compare that to the donner party.

The darkness comes from the lack of support from even villages close to each other.

Survivors are a selfish, uncooperative bunch. They are the descendants of those that took what they needed. Often this was at the expense of others or the greater good. They are clannish and have a well learned distrust of outsiders due to raids, robbery, and disease. Villages cooperate on a barter system and often operate as feudal society with a chief or warlord that is the sole authority.

Trade still happens but, trade with outsiders happens infrequently and outside the village. Two armed groups meet somewhere in the middle of two villages and barter. Mistrust at best.

Ignorance..... Knowledge died. Sure, there are some C and B level groups and those would probably be the ones built around a preWar school or University. Most of the rest are focused solely on skills that make food, shelter, and warmth. People don't have time for nice things, some story telling and music for a few hours in the evening before rising at dawn to begin again. Most cannot read, and those that can mostly can read only at a grammar school level. People can't build more than simple machines because math has degenerated to simple arithmetic. Health is a terrifying mix of superstition, misunderstood lore, and fiction. The average person won't live to see 40. Most children will grow to be adults if they can just survive past their fifth birthday.

Technology is lost.... The plagues and the destruction were pitiless and did not care if the victim was a high school drop out or held a PHd. People that knew how to build things or repair things may have lasted longer if they were valuable to a collective whole, such as a mechanic who could fix cars. People were only able to pass on some of their knowledge and without formal education, some was lost in context. Some skills had to be learned and often without someone possessing the skills to begin with such as blacksmith or log cabin builder. Other things are consumed and cannot be replaced, like some tools. There is no hardware store when your last file is dull or the chainsaw chain has broken for the 34th time. Making a replacement may not even occur to them because no one in their collective tribe ever knew how to build any of it.

[bobcat]

all of this is true but as far as the situation goes there are far worse scenario's to wake up to.

lost knowledge and technology are handicaps. i'm assuming roughly 15% literacy rates that aren't very well spread out through the populace. some areas such as settlements built around universities and larger schools will be better off in this regard. the thing is even if the 5 year plan worked there would still have been a major deficit in skilled labor, massive drops in the literacy rate, and the project would be spending most of their resources teaching people how to survive in the long term. the world the teams wake up to has experienced the loss of technical knowledge and technology but the people already know how to survive long term. they've been doing it for 150 years.

xenophobia would be a major handicap that would also have to be handled on the 5 years plan. the big change is that there is no longer a major war in recent memory or possibly still raging. if the teams would have been able to bypass that barrier with mushroom clouds still branded in the commo memory they should still be able to after much of that memory has faded. they also have the advantage of having valuable skills and trade goods to aid them in getting around such barriers, never underestimate how far even a good cup of coffee can go in winning hearts and minds.

before we get to likely aggressors/allies we need a few basic assumptions. first i am assuming Recon Team G-9 from Operation Damocles is successful and sends the wakeup signal. i am also assuming that the project fails to implement even rudimentary COMSEC and that the wakeup signal will be received by everyone with cryo tech. allowing Krell's warriors to have a chance.

as for the likely aggressors/allies. the Snake Eaters could go either way. these are teams of highly trained Green Berets who in 3rd edition are described as being reasonable and having a primary goal of figuring out what the project is up to. assuming the party does not antagonise them they will likely fall into the allies category where their training will make them invaluable in reconstruction. specifically considering the fact that they are specifically trained to be teachers and mentors. if the team forms an alliance with them the lack of education is easily offset by these heavily armed teachers. they would also very likely take an adversarial approach to both Krell and the KFS so even without a formal alliance with the snake eaters those that RT G-9 would wake up if they deal with the AI on the UP could easily present a major stumbling block to the other major hostile factions.

Krell and his forces are known hostile. unless the destruction of Prime Base was so rapid that nobody was able to send a message out, the teams should wake to a warning about this threat. they are limited in technology and lack the ability to react to changing situations without direct oversight. unfortunately assuming RT G-9 is successful their leader will likely be awoken along with surviving Morrow Assets and the Snake Eaters. this makes Krell a credible threat to teams operating within reach of any Krell forces but again unless they destroyed prime base before a message could be sent they should be a threat the teams are able to prepare for.

KFS is one of the more serious threats. fortunately they haven't seen any significant actions in more than a century. if there are any Snake Eater teams awoken in their controlled territories by RT G-9 the KFS will predictably be met with a threat that they are completely unprepared for. yes they have an advantage in that they have Armor and Air Support, but, as Iraq and Afghanistan have showed us these advantages can be offset. that said an armed confrontation with the KFS is a less than ideal solution. if a team could somehow subvert the ruling body of the KFS to align along Morrow Project ideals they could provide a technological base for a more rapid reconstruction. after all what's a little velvet revolution between friends?

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by bobcat

Krell and his forces are known hostile.

I will have to check when I get home from work, but I do not believe the Krell agents ever shown themselves to the forces from Prime Base. They implanted themselves as insurgents and agitators. I think when they captured the Morrow team members and negotiated, they present only as part of the large angry mob of survivors. Like I said, I am at work and may be wrong but that is what I think it said. If true, Prime Base could only send out a message along the lines of, "Oops! Pissed off some survivors and botched a rescue. Be careful out there!" Far from identifying a group of hostiles.

[RandyT0001]

According to 4th edition, pgs. 477 & 479, Bruce Morrow knows of Krell and the fact that they oppose the MP in the future. Whether he tells the COT or the upper command units of MP is not provided in the book. During Bruce's excursions into the future we can assume he knew of or heard about Krell, the Frozen Chosen, and the KFS. Based upon the implications in the book, Bruce was more concerned with Krell the either of the other two. Maybe the MP defeats the KFS and Frozen Chosen but in doing so weakens themselves so much as to be easily conquered by the horde of Krell.

Guess that's what we are supposed to play out and discover.