OT Gibraltar

[RN7]

Anyone been following the escalation of tension between Britain and Spain over Gibraltar.

EU law has given Spain the right to veto Gibraltar's future trade relations with the rest of the EU following Britain's withdrawal from the EU due to BREXIT, as Gibraltar has been a British overseas territory since 1713. Spain's foreign minister has said it will now not block a future Scottish EU membership bid, which will only happen if Scotland becomes independent from the rest of the UK. This of course could lead to Britain to supporting Catalan and Basque independence from Spain, and maybe Spanish territories in Morocco which lie on the other side of the Strait of Gibraltar.

Lord Howard, the former Tory leader, has said that Theresa May would go to war to defend Gibraltar’s sovereignty. He said that Theresa May would show the same resolve over Gibraltar as Margaret Thatcher did over the Falklands.

I'm just waiting for Argentina to open its big mouth about this, and then Putin and Trump to stir some more crap.

Does anyone think that Spain could take Gibraltar at the moment?

[rcaf_777]

What would Spain have to gain by taking Gibraltar?

99% of people living in Gibraltar voted in 2002 for a British Government not a Spanish one.

So what dose the Spanish Government gain from taking this rock? Maybe this is another ploy to keep the UK in the EU?

[RN7]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

What would Spain have to gain by taking Gibraltar?

99% of people living in Gibraltar voted in 2002 for a British Government not a Spanish one.

So what dose the Spanish Government gain from taking this rock? Maybe this is another ploy to keep the UK in the EU?

I believe they voted 98.7% for Britain and 1.03% for Spain, 96% also supported continued membership for Gibraltar of the EU during BREXIT. But Spain has had a techy relationship with Britain over the issue of Gibraltar since the 18th Century, and the Spanish are quite emotional over it and in fact so are the British. Even into modern times there has been a lot of border tensions between both parties over Gibraltar.

I think the EU law that now applies to Gibraltar with Spain retaining a right to veto future trade links between Gibraltar and the rest of the EU was not deliberate, and was done as an afterthought as nobody seriously expected Britain to leave the EU. But now we are here and the law is in extant and is causing a lot of political tension in Britain. The more hardline section of EU negotiators could cause Britain some trouble over this, and Spain is certainly not helping.

Lets not forget that Gibraltar is fairly important strategically, and it is a lot more important to both Britain and Spain and also much closer to Britain than the Falklands Islands.

[simonmark6]

From my reading of things, the veto is a paper tiger. As a member of the EU it has a veto on all treaties and deals before they are ratified. This happened recently when a region of Belgium held up the ratification of a trade deal with Canada. This particular veto is nothing they didn't have. Effectively it's the EU strengthening its hand for the negotiations.

As for can Spain take Gibraltar, of course it could. Whether it could keep it is another matter. It's similar to Howard saying we would defend it like we defended the Falklands. I hope that doesn't mean we're going to let the Spanish walk in and then spend inordinate amounts of money and lives to take it back. If we spend lives to have to liberate Gibrateans on the scale we did to liberate a proportionate number of Falklanders we won't have much of an army left.

It's all moot though, Spain is not going to try and retake the Rock. They may be gits about things but they aren't stupid.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

What would Spain have to gain by taking Gibraltar?

99% of people living in Gibraltar voted in 2002 for a British Government not a Spanish one.

So what dose the Spanish Government gain from taking this rock? Maybe this is another ploy to keep the UK in the EU?

I will remind you sir, senor, that chunk of rock was part of Spain long before it was covered by an English flag.

Gain? Why, 300 years of back taxes on property would be a tidy sum for the Spanish governmental coffers, not to mention taxes on Gibraltar banking...

Plus the Spanish Navy gains the ability to close the Pillars of Hercules whenever Spain feels the need to collect a toll.

A vote? Who voted? How did Gibraltar natives of Spanish descent vote? Not British ex-pats or the children of British ex-pats - they are interlopers and their vote should not count.

If you were taking a vote in Crimea, would you allows Russian soldiers of the occupying force to vote? Of course not.

And the Rock apes - the actual apes - has anyone polled them? Wouldn't they be happier with all the pesky English military gone and all those facilities turned to an ape preserve?

Entirely (well, mostly entirely) facetiously,
Uncle Ted

[Silent Hunter UK]

Originally Posted by unkated

And the Rock apes - the actual apes - has anyone polled them? Wouldn't they be happier with all the pesky English military gone and all those facilities turned to an ape preserve?

Entirely (well, mostly entirely) facetiously,
Uncle Ted

Having visited the Rock and had one of them land on my head, I honestly don't think they care.

Also the Arabs were there first... ;-)

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter UK

Having visited the Rock and had one of them land on my head, I honestly don't think they care.

Also the Arabs were there first... ;-)

The Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Romans and Visigoths were there before the Arabs. And the Neanderthals were there before Homo sapiens sapiens!!

[RN7]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

As for can Spain take Gibraltar, of course it could. Whether it could keep it is another matter. It's similar to Howard saying we would defend it like we defended the Falklands. I hope that doesn't mean we're going to let the Spanish walk in and then spend inordinate amounts of money and lives to take it back. If we spend lives to have to liberate Gibrateans on the scale we did to liberate a proportionate number of Falklanders we won't have much of an army left.

It's all moot though, Spain is not going to try and retake the Rock. They may be gits about things but they aren't stupid.

The principle difference between the Falklands and Gibraltar would be that Britain doesn't need aircraft carriers to attack Spanish forces, as the whole Iberian Peninsula is within range of RAF strike aircraft in the UK.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by unkated

I will remind you sir, senor, that chunk of rock was part of Spain long before it was covered by an English flag. Uncle Ted

Its been a British territory for longer than the United States has existed.

[simonmark6]

Originally Posted by RN7

The principle difference between the Falklands and Gibraltar would be that Britain doesn't need aircraft carriers to attack Spanish forces, as the whole Iberian Peninsula is within range of RAF strike aircraft in the UK.

That's true. Plus we could encourage our Fifth Element in Spain to flood the health care system by faking cardiac arrests all at once.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

The principle difference between the Falklands and Gibraltar would be that Britain doesn't need aircraft carriers to attack Spanish forces, as the whole Iberian Peninsula is within range of RAF strike aircraft in the UK.

As were the Falklands

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

As were the Falklands

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck

A prime example of "amateurs talk tactics and professionals study logistics..."

[unkated]

Originally Posted by RN7

Its been a British territory for longer than the United States has existed.

True. Does that mean you will take us back and save us from Trump?

Uncle Ted

[RN7]

Originally Posted by unkated

True. Does that mean you will take us back and save us from Trump?

Uncle Ted

Oh I'm not British Unkated!!

[RN7]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

That's true. Plus we could encourage our Fifth Element in Spain to flood the health care system by faking cardiac arrests all at once.

And don't forget all the British and Irish gangsters living on the Costa del Sol!

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

As were the Falklands

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck

No need for the old Vulcan's as the Tornado's can easily do the job now, as can the nuclear submarines with TLAM's!

[unkated]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

As for can Spain take Gibraltar, of course it could. Whether it could keep it is another matter. It's similar to Howard saying we would defend it like we defended the Falklands. I hope that doesn't mean we're going to let the Spanish walk in and then spend inordinate amounts of money and lives to take it back.

Would the US be required to aid both sides due to treaty obligations? We proved to be a faithless ally in for both sides in the Falklands

Hmmm. Could this rip NATO apart, and allow Russia the chance to seize Ukraine and the Balkans in the confusion! (to relate it to T2K)
Then it nukes NATO bases in Poland and Hungary!
A rump NATO scarmbles to counter without Britain, precipitating the Twilight War!
France rebuffs a British request to allow its troops in Germany passage through France!
China seizes its chance and attacks the Russian Far East!
North Korea seizes its chance and attacks South Korea! It hits US bases in Japan with conventional warheads on missiles to diminish US airpower!
Liberal Americans, fearing Trump will trigger a massive counterstrike inviting full nuclear retaliation from Russia and China, riot in Washington, lynching Trump and his staff in the process!

(T2K17!)

Makes almost as much sense to me as the V2.2 timeline

Uncle Ted

[James Langham2]

A few random thoughts:

* In 2002 the Royal Marines accidentally invaded Spain on an exercise when they landed on the wrong beach when attacking Gibraltar

*The rock apes are actually members of the British Army with regimental numbers...

* Shameless plug for my article about Gibraltar available on this site

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by James Langham2

A few random thoughts:

* In 2002 the Royal Marines accidentally invaded Spain on an exercise when they landed on the wrong beach when attacking Gibraltar

*The rock apes are actually members of the British Army with regimental numbers...

* Shameless plug for my article about Gibraltar available on this site

Lucky the Royal Marines didnt use explosives on their exercise - "whoops sorry Senor - thought your house was our training objective"

[Cdnwolf]

AND while the world looks to Europe, Middle East and South China sea, Russian has quietly built up it's forces in Nicaragua again. Another Latin American flare up to keep the US off balance even more.

[Marc]

Being Catalan, I tend to observe the Spanish dispute with Gibraltar and the UK with some distance (Ei!, two companies of Catalans participated in the assault to Gibraltar in 1704) . But I would say that very few people in Spain are worried about this supposed increase in the tension between Spain and the UK. I do not perceive any kind of concern, only a moderate interest and a certain feeling of disbelief. A kind of “…and now, why are they arguing about Gibraltar, again?” A question that is usually answered shrugging one’s shoulders. Although Gibraltar is a problem that arises from time to time, I think that every time that this happens is because the status of the British Colony is used by both governments following their own interests and mistakes. Quite sure you will find a small group of enthusiastic followers echoing the declarations of their respective governments. But, by the most part, people are not very interested. And both the UK and Spain have much more serious problem to face at the short term.

So, having said this, we are free to produce any T2K variation about the current situation. At least we could get something useful and funny of this last “crisis” (that, of course, will not be The Last).

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Marc

Being Catalan, I tend to observe the Spanish dispute with Gibraltar and the UK with some distance (Ei!, two companies of Catalans participated in the assault to Gibraltar in 1704) . But I would say that very few people in Spain are worried about this supposed increase in the tension between Spain and the UK. I do not perceive any kind of concern, only a moderate interest and a certain feeling of disbelief. A kind of “…and now, why are they arguing about Gibraltar, again?” A question that is usually answered shrugging one’s shoulders. Although Gibraltar is a problem that arises from time to time, I think that every time that this happens is because the status of the British Colony is used by both governments following their own interests and mistakes. Quite sure you will find a small group of enthusiastic followers echoing the declarations of their respective governments. But, by the most part, people are not very interested. And both the UK and Spain have much more serious problem to face at the short term.

So, having said this, we are free to produce any T2K variation about the current situation. At least we could get something useful and funny of this last “crisis” (that, of course, will not be The Last).

Is Spain making another land grab of homes and businesses built by foreign investors around Barcelona and Costa del Sol? like they did recently. 2005 or 2008?

[Marc]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Is Spain making another land grab of homes and businesses built by foreign investors around Barcelona and Costa del Sol? like they did recently. 2005 or 2008?

Uf! No idea about this! I'm sorry ArmySGT...

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Marc

Uf! No idea about this! I'm sorry ArmySGT...

That's ok. It doesn't really affect me at all. I know it made it hard to lure foreign investors back during the recession.

Meanwhile, I wish I had taken pictures inside the Spanish Army museum in Madrid when I was there. Any military museums or displays in Barcelona I should look for someday?

[Marc]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

That's ok. It doesn't really affect me at all. I know it made it hard to lure foreign investors back during the recession.

Meanwhile, I wish I had taken pictures inside the Spanish Army museum in Madrid when I was there. Any military museums or displays in Barcelona I should look for someday?

I'm afraid you will not find the same here, in Catalonia, at least in the form of military museums. Strange thing, given that this is our longest period of peace. But the past years of dictatorship with Franco and the difficult relationship between Catalonia and Spain have caused a reaction against anything that sounds military. The only military museum in Barcelona is in Montjuïc Castle, and it was about to be closed two years ago. It’s seems difficult (or nearly impossible) to have an objective treatment of the military history without opening past wounds. As an exempla, Barcelona was bombarded at least twice from Montjuïc itself to suppress riots. You will find history museums with contents about our wars but (with the exception of Montjuïc Castle), you will not find a military-only museum. You can make an interesting visit to the Ebro Battle scenario (200 Km away from Barcelona), especially if you have read before any book that allows you to move knowing the critical points of the battlefield. You will find small and interesting local museums about the battle in some villages of the area. And, of course, you will find military architecture everywhere. Our wood is not good to build fortifications, so stone built structures are everywhere and you will find any kind of fortress, since Roman walls to Renaissance bastion forts, medieval castles and towers to protect the coastal villages against Muslim pirates.

Anyway, send me a message if you want a local guide!