List of European Nuke Strikes?

[Kemper Boyd]

Originally Posted by John Farson

Personally, I agree with the others that the locations as mentioned in the Nordic sourcebook would have been targeted by the Russians.

I would disagree, because for the reason mentioned in the 2.2, the finnish petrochemical industry would be mostly useless and of no strategic importance. In a strategic exchange the refineries could be plastered with nuclear weapons, but it's more unlikely to happen in the context of the limited exchange that took place in the 2.2 timeline.

The Nordic countries had ceased to have any strategic importance whatsoever after the NATO-Russia northern front stalled and the naval conflict was mostly over with.

[Legbreaker]

No strategic importance? You are joking right?

Even without oil coming from Norway's north sea oil rigs, an undamaged refinery is of vital importance. It only takes one shipment of oil from somewhere else and suddenly "boom" you've got yourself a mobile division or two.

Note that it wouldn't require an ICBM to do the job either. A sub or even Fast Attack Craft should be able to deliver the package.

[Targan]

I have to agree. Given some of the other industrial infrastructure that was nuked and seemed to be of lesser strategic value, I'd assume pretty much all of Scandinavia's petrochemical processing infrastructure would have been targeted either by conventional or nuclear strikes.

[sic1701]

Am I the only one wondering what has become of all those nuclear weapons, on all sides, that went unused during the Twilight War?

If, indeed, the line was inched across in dribs and drabs and no one went for the throat on a true counterforce strike, then somewhere there must be some Minuteman IIIs and SS-24s and SS-25s out there waiting in the wings for proper authority.

Or has that been covered in one of the rulebooks?

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by sic1701

Am I the only one wondering what has become of all those nuclear weapons, on all sides, that went unused during the Twilight War?

If, indeed, the line was inched across in dribs and drabs and no one went for the throat on a true counterforce strike, then somewhere there must be some Minuteman IIIs and SS-24s and SS-25s out there waiting in the wings for proper authority.

Or has that been covered in one of the rulebooks?

It hasn't been covered in the rulebooks.

The interpretation I take to the various Broken Arrow (loose nuke) scenarios is that the various authorities - Milgov, Civgov and the remnants of the Soviet government - want to maintain control of the remaining nuclear weapons. I believe there is a reference in Airlords of the Ozarks to Milgov sending a team into the remnants of Eaker Air Force Base shortly after it had been nuked to retrieve the warheads.

The warheads are probably sitting in a secure tunnel somewhere. Cheyenne Mountain (and its Russian equivalents)? The USAF also maintained a stockpile of inactive nuclear weapons at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, NM in underground/hardened facilities.

In addition to Minuteman IIIs, there are probably also bombers at various diversion fields - military and civilian airports with runways over 10,000 feet or so. I've got some ideas about these too...

[sic1701]

I think an excellent place to store "decommissioned" nuclear weapons would be the Yucca Mountain Site in Nevada, which was designed to store nuclear waste...what better place, as the gamma flux from the waste would help mask the prescence of weapons thought to be already disposed of.

I can't remember, is the Pantex facility in Amarillo on the strike list? Zlatoust, in the Ural Mountains, is probably the mountain storage facility you're thinking of; a gigantic sprawling site akin to the Manzano Mountain facility at Kirtland.

And, previous treaties aside, once open war broke out in Europe, I would imagine that both sides would again arm surface warships, dig out the air-launched nukes, etc. Just in case.

[stilleto69]

Chico -
Not to open sore wounds, but I think you covered such a case of several B-52's that had landed at Columbus AFB. During the DC Group's Recovery Plan. Which was one hell'va document if I say so myself.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by chico20854

It hasn't been covered in the rulebooks

The warheads are probably sitting in a secure tunnel somewhere. Cheyenne Mountain (and its Russian equivalents)? The USAF also maintained a stockpile of inactive nuclear weapons at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, NM in underground/hardened facilities.

In addition to Minuteman IIIs, there are probably also bombers at various diversion fields - military and civilian airports with runways over 10,000 feet or so. I've got some ideas about these too...

When it comes to Cheyenne Mountain I tend to think the designers dropped the ball. When I was stationed at Fort Carson we joked that in case of nuclear attack there would be no point in finding shelters. In V2.2 it says NORAD got a 3mt ground burst: It, Carson, and the Springs (including the academy) would be one crater. At rush hour you could be in the centre of the springs and be at the front gate of Norad in about 15 minutes. Hence, Milgov in my mind would be in Denver if in Colorado at all (maybe in rural Wyoming: heard from numerous sources there is a decent smallish command centre out there for british use in case the actual owners of some of the land is out that way when nukes start to fly).

[Kemper Boyd]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

No strategic importance? You are joking right?

Even without oil coming from Norway's north sea oil rigs, an undamaged refinery is of vital importance. It only takes one shipment of oil from somewhere else and suddenly "boom" you've got yourself a mobile division or two.

The Finnish and the Swedish armies are the ones in Europe which are practically untouched. The refineries would have a strategic value if they were somewhere else, but as long as there are intact armies to control them, neither NATO or the Russians are going to get use of them.

And by the time the nuclear strikes in Europe start, the conflict in Scandinavia is practically over and neither Finland or Sweden are engaged. Nuking the refineries "just because" doesn't seem to fit in, since there is no benefit in doing so for either NATO or Russia. Might happen in a general strategic exchange, but not in the "couple of warheads at a time" nuclear exchange that takes place in Twilight 2000.

[Rainbow Six]

Isn't it specifiically mentioned in one of the modules (Boomer I think) that Norway is targeted by the Soviet during the 1997 strategic exchange?

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Isn't it specifiically mentioned in one of the modules (Boomer I think) that Norway is targeted by the Soviet during the 1997 strategic exchange?

Yep.

By November, the tactical exchanges had gone strategic,
and Norway did not escape.
Along with attacks on industrial centers, a nuclear bomb was
directed at Oslo, the capital. King Harald, who refused to abandon
the seat of government in the face of enemy attack, died
in the blast along with the Statsrad (state council) and most of
the Storting. Over a half a million Norwegians died in the attacks
on the capitol, the major industrial centers, and the nation's
petroleum facilities. The nation's naval bases at Horten,
Haakonsvern, Ramsund, and Olavsvern were destroyed or
severely damaged.

[John Farson]

Not to mention the fact that according to the Nordic sourcebook 3/4 of Norway's population was wiped out in the nuclear exchange and its aftermath. If a 1 Mt strike on Oslo doesn't constitute a strategic nuclear attack, I don't know what does.

Much as I like the Finnish sourcebook, this claim about Scandinavia being untouched by nuclear attack strikes me as a flaw. Maybe it was a case of wishful thinking by the authors ("Even if there was a nuclear war, we're so tiny and insignificant that the Russians wouldn't bother to nuke us, no sir... Please, please god let it be so")

[pmulcahy11b]

Yes, the lack of Scandinavian nuke strikes is completely unbelievable. But blend the two timelines (from canon and the Scandinavian Sourcebook) and you have something good.

[Kemper Boyd]

Originally Posted by John Farson

Much as I like the Finnish sourcebook, this claim about Scandinavia being untouched by nuclear attack strikes me as a flaw. Maybe it was a case of wishful thinking by the authors ("Even if there was a nuclear war, we're so tiny and insignificant that the Russians wouldn't bother to nuke us, no sir... Please, please god let it be so")

The bizarre thing is that its the same guys who wrote the Nordic sourcebook.

Essentially, it's of course up to how you want to see it: there's no real canon to go by here. If I would run a game where nuclear strikes against Finland and Sweden would figure, I'd probably adjust the list given in the Nordic sourcebook, since the list is sorta counter-intuitive. The oil refineries are way overprioritized over actual military assets, considering the distance to oil production and the narrow seaways to the refineries, they can be dealt with differently.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Kemper Boyd

The Finnish and the Swedish armies are the ones in Europe which are practically untouched.

Well that statement is just completely wrong.

While I can't say with any certainty about Sweden without refering back to the books, I know for a fact Finland STRONGLY resisted both Soviet and NATO offensives through their country. They fought so hard and effectively they forced the Soviet offensive against NATO forces in Norway to falter and the Nato command to reassess their plans on a strategic scale after they too met with effective military resistance.

Do you really think the troops on the ground wouldn't have shot back at the Finns? Can you honestly say the industry and resources Finland possesses wouldn't have been subjected to AT LEAST intensive conventional strikes?

Anyone who believes that has got to be living in a dreamland.

We had a discussion recently about Australia and whether or not it would have been nuked. As a country not involved in the multiple wars in the northern hemisphere (although possibly in Korea as part of the UN), and the fact it's on the other side of the planet, the concensus was the country WAS nuked. A country in the direct line of fire such as Finland (and possibly Sweden) wouldn't have had a chance.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Well that statement is just completely WRONG.

I agree but until I have full knowledge about what the contents of all the Finnish books are, I would probably not use all caps. There appears to be a serious disconnect within books published by the same author(s), so who knows what might be in print somewhere.

[Kemper Boyd]

Originally Posted by kato13

I agree but until I have full knowledge about what the contents of all the Finnish books are, I would probably not use all caps. There appears to be a serious disconnect within books published by the same author(s), so who knows what might be in print somewhere.

The exact expression in the 2.2 main rulebook is "the two least damaged armies in Europe" from the timeline, from the spring of 1997. After that, Finland and Sweden aren't mentioned anymore in the timeline.

It of course helps that this campaign was fought in Lapland, which has low population and little infrastructure to be damaged.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

We had a discussion recently about Australia and whether or not it would have been nuked. As a country not involved in the multiple wars in the northern hemisphere (although possibly in Korea as part of the UN), and the fact it's on the other side of the planet, the concensus was the country WAS nuked. A country in the direct line of fire such as Finland (and possibly Sweden) wouldn't have had a chance.

I actually read the Australia thread and didn't reach the same conclusions

What I consider the most important criteria for justifying military activity in the context of the game is "What is the strategic gain?". Denying the enemy strategic resources is of course a net gain, but it has to be weighted with other strategical considerations. Extending the all-out war isn't always good, especially if the nuclear strikes are done as a part of limited nuclear war.

[John Farson]

But as everyone who's read about Twilight 2000 knows, even the limited nuclear war dealt immense damage to the world. Countries like Australia, Sweden, Finland etc., you don't even need to use that many (or powerful) nukes to screw them up.

I don't remember where, but somewhere I read that you'd only need about 100 or so nukes to completely destroy the United States as an organized entity, maybe even less. Though it had its flaws, Jericho did a good job in showing how even 23 Hiroshima-size bombs detonated in as many cities could deal a hell of a lot of damage to the U.S. Total nuclear war is like two guys firing rocket launchers at each other: their bodies will blow apart. The limited nuclear war as described in T2K is more like two guys blowing each other's heads off with sniper rifles: the rest of the torso may be intact, but it's no good if your brains are all over the wall.

Considering this, I find it to be no stretch of the imagination to consider that the Russians would have had no problem in expending a few nukes to make sure that Scandinavia (and Australia too, for that matter) would pose no problem for what remained of Russia in the post-nuke world. You can bet that the Americans would have the same policy. Heck, both sides have people whose sole job is to figure out how many nukes are needed and where the targets would be.

P.S: I'll post this later when describing the Nordic countries in the Nordic sourcebook but I might as well post it in brief. While the Finnish Army didn't suffer particularly heavy casualties in the war itself, the ensuing chaos forced the army to split into numerous smaller units in order to better provide order. Also, the collapse in agriculture has caused most of the army to be demobilized in order to provide manpower for agriculture. At the moment the army is in peacetime levels (And it's not as if Russia is in any shape to threaten with invasion.). Oh yes, Finland is run by a military dictator who titles himself as "Marshal of Finland", like the late Marshal Mannerheim. As for Sweden, that country is locked in a messy and brutal civil war between the Royal and Republican armies. So I think it's safe to say that neither army is particularly intact. Well maybe the Finnish army, but it's been drastically scaled back, and is more geared for policing the country than anything else. Oh yes, and the Helsinki Metropolitan Area (meaning Helsinki, Espoo (the 2nd largest city in Finland) and Vantaa) is a no-man's-land, ruled by gangs of criminals, punks, Roma, skinheads and others.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Kemper Boyd

The exact expression in the 2.2 main rulebook is "the two least damaged armies in Europe" from the timeline, from the spring of 1997.

I'm curious to know where exactly that is wrtten as I certainly can't find it in the 2.2 book....

As I think can be seen in the translations John has been kindly posting, it seems clear that the Finnish book is written to reflect local needs and perceptions rather than following canon to the letter. It is therefore fair to say it's more of an alternate reality than extension - very useful and interesting, however my personal believe is the GDW material should have priority where there is disagreement. Naturally everyone is free to do what they like as always.

With that in mind, I think we can understand why the same writer has contradicted themselves - The Finnish book wasn't intended for sale and use out of one small area (or it would have been officially tranlated and published) and was written with that market in mind. A completely understandable position and something I'd probably do myself if it meant me being paid or not for my work.

Regarding who got nuked how hard, we have an indication in "What's Polish for G'day" that Australia and France were not "irradiated", however this could be explained by the Australian tendancy to exaggerate unimportant details. In the context of the adventure, it doesn't matter what state these two countries are in - everything happens in Poland.

I believe we also have other information from a number of sources including the 2.2 timeline that France was nuked.

In Europe, France and Belgium had been hit the lightest and stand virtually alone in maintaining a semblance of internal order throughout the cataclysm.

France of course was at the time at least neutral, if not quietly hostile to Nato. This raises the question "can Finland and Sweden be classed as part of Europe?" My thoughts are definately yes.

[Trooper]

Originally Posted by kato13

I agree but until I have full knowledge about what the contents of all the Finnish books are, I would probably not use all caps. There appears to be a serious disconnect within books published by the same author(s), so who knows what might be in print somewhere.

There is very simple explanation for all inconsistencies. I found an article that explained how the finnish Twilight 2000 material was created. GDW gave instructions that the finnish authors must respect canon materials like official timeline and history. Nordic sourcebook follows closely the information provided by Boomer and basic rules. Nordic sourcebook is V1 material.

Later GDW decided that there were no nuclear strikes in Scandinavia. You all know that there are minor differences if you have enough time to study V1, V2 and V2.2 editions. This is one of those.

V 1

Norway

Oslo 1 Mt Political and industrial center.
Tromso 100 kt Naval base. Town destroyed.
Drammen 100 kt ground burst Petroleum industry. Town destroyed
Harstad 100 kt naval base. Town destroyd.
Bergen 100 kt naval base and harbour.
Stavanger 100 kt petroleum industry.
Horten 100 kt naval base.

Northern Norway badly damaged from tactical nukes and conventional warfare.

Sweden

Karlskoga 2 X 50 kt Defense industry. Town destroyed.
Nynäshamn 20 kt Petroleum industry
Malmà 20 kt Petroleum industry and harbour.
LingkÃping 50 kt Aircraft industry. Town destroyed.
GÃteborg 50 kt. Missile didnt hit targeted oil refinery. Minimal civilian casualties.

Stockholm City Badly damaged by Great fire of Stockholm in 1997. Reconstruction have been difficult because area is near frontline. (Swedish civil war.)

Finland

Helsinki 10 kt. Santahamina military base and petroleum industry area. Second cruise missile heading to downtown was shot down by airforce. In 2001 Helsinki area (including Vantaa and Espoo) is not under government control.
Upinniemi naval base 10 kt.
Naantali 50 kt Oil refinery and Pansio naval base. Firestorm destroyed large parts of Turku and Naantali.
Porvoo 10 kt Oil refinery. Town badly damaged in firestorm.

Iceland

Keflavik 100 kt airbase.

Denmark

Copenhagen destroyed by conventional bombing.


V2 & 2.2

Scandinavia: While nothing in the Scandinavian countries was subjected to nuclear attacks, the peninsula saw considerable fighting during 1997-98 between NATO and Soviet forces. Cut off from world trade, life is becoming increasingly difficult for most Scandinavians. Most of the cities of Scandinavia are independent or insular, althought broad regions in the south are organized. Areas int the north subjected to fighting during the war are either cantonments, devastated, or in anarchy.