Special Forces Units

[rcaf_777]

In 2000 would it not be common to see combind specail forces team, as example

US Combine Special Operations Team (MILGOV)

Team Commander- US Delta Operator
Team WO -Seals CPO
Ops/Intell - Ranger Sgt
Ops/Intell - Army Pys Ops Sgt

Weapons Team
Army SF Sgt
Marine Scout/Sniper

Engineer Team
Seals PO
Navy EOD PO

Medical Team
Seals PO
PJ's Sgt

Comms team
Airforce SF
Ranger


The Team would also have two local guides for scouting purposes

[Raellus]

I'm not sure how to properly phrase this, but I think the composition of an SOF team would depend on the level of its HQ. In other words, a unit controlled at the Army or Corps level would probably be very mixed, as per your example.

You could even push it one step further. I see SOF units of mixed nationality at the Corps level and above. For example, German 3rd Army would likely have a unit tasked with coastal recon, beach clearance, and raiding made up of U.S. SEALS and Marine Recon operators, British SBS, German SKS, etc.

[pmulcahy11b]

Would KSK even exist in T2K? It wasn't stood up until 1997, with selection starting in 1996; KSK training, if you start from the ground up, is a 21-month process.

[kato13]

Wiki link Kommando Spezialkrafte

[sic1701]

I'm not convinced that mixed units would play nicely together at that specific operational level. I'm sure they're all professional enough to get the job done, but you have to trust the people you work with with your lives in those endeavours and if you're Army Special Forces-trained and used to doing things the Army way, you may not necessarily know, or see how it can be more efficiently done in that manner, the Navy SEAL way. A Ranger master sergeant and a SEAL chief petty officer may recognize the benefits of shared experience and points-of-view in how to tackle a problem, but may not necessarily agree on the best course of action.

And units that have trained together know exactly what each member of that unit is doing, needs to do, when to do it, and frequently how to do it, with the duplication of effort and multitasking that is necessary to do each others' jobs in case of casualties or timing issues. A mixed grab-bag of Army SF and Rangers, Navy SEALs, Air Force Pararescue or Combat Controllers, or Marine Corps Force Recon may not necessarily be the sum of their parts, especially if thrown together ad-hoc in a warzone.

In fiction it works wonderfully and the gestalt triumphs over all in their path, but in reality the blend would probably require a lot of time together as well as a strong leader to cut through the multiservice bullshit and turf wars.

I am reminded of something from Richard Marcinko's first "Rogue Warrior" book, where he discussed the formation of the U.S. Army's Delta Force; to paraphrase him, the powers-that-be thought Colonel Charlie Beckwith (the founder of Delta) was unduly influenced by the British SAS, and Marcinko thought Beckwith was unduly influenced by the Marx Brothers.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by sic1701

In fiction it works wonderfully and the gestalt triumphs over all in their path, but in reality the blend would probably require a lot of time together as well as a strong leader to cut through the multiservice bullshit and turf wars.

I am reminded of something from Richard Marcinko's first "Rogue Warrior" book, where he discussed the formation of the U.S. Army's Delta Force; to paraphrase him, the powers-that-be thought Colonel Charlie Beckwith (the founder of Delta) was unduly influenced by the British SAS, and Marcinko thought Beckwith was unduly influenced by the Marx Brothers.

Ahh, turf wars -- they sink so many otherwise good plans. Every has to have their piece of the pie. Happens even in police agencies and civilian businesses. It, in no small way, sank Eagle Claw (the attempted rescue of the Iranian Hostages in 1979). It's kept the US Army from having any armed fixed-wing aircraft, and therefore forced aircraft on the Air Force they didn't want and that the Army desperately needed (like the A-10), and forced them to turn helicopters into rotary-wing versions of armed fixed-wing aircraft.

As for Marcinko -- I've read his stuff, and I'm not impressed (with his fiction and nonfiction). And Beckwith was heavily influenced by the SAS -- they were the big kids on the block in the special ops field at the time. That's not wrong, and he blended Vietnam experience with SAS training. Marcinko's other comment -- that's just inter-service sniping.

Rant over.

[Raellus]

Paul, in my mind, the W. German military would have seen the need for something like KSK as the T2K (v1.0) Cold War heated up. Especially once folks in the higher levels of the Bundeswehr started kicking around the idea of reunification by coup de main, something like KSK would come really in handy. The difference between IRW and v1.0 timeline dates isn't too great, IMHO, to preclude such an occurance.

Sic1701, SOF of various allied nations routinely train with one another so interoperability wouldn't be that much of a stretch. IIRC, the German GSG9 was pretty much set up in imitation of and conjuction with the SAS (or the latter's counter terrorist sub-units were copied from the GSG9). And by the later stages of the Twilight War, homogenous SOF units would have been suffered considerable attrition. Since SOF training takes a considerable amount of time to do right, it makes sense that operators from various units- including allied units- be pooled together in order to complete the operations at hand. There wouldn't be time to wait until the next batch of freshly trained SEALs showed up from the states. If there were some SBS blokes in the neighborhood, though...

I mean, if you were a SEAL, would you rather work with some replacements that were volunteers from a "local" Marine unit or some proper SBS commandos?

[jester]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Sic1701, SOF of various allied nations routinely train with one another so
I mean, if you were a SEAL, would you rather work with some replacements that were volunteers from a "local" Marine unit or some proper SBS commandos?

Marines would be the good choice. Because they would have familiarity with one another and their operations, doctine would be similiar as well as equipment and other operational considerations. I would even go as far as saying that, some of the training would be on par again allowing for a smoother ability to operate with one another. And of course the whole phsycological focus of operating with your countrymen, so you would not feel you were amongst strangers.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

In 2000 would it not be common to see combind specail forces team

Thr party in my campaign started out in Poland as a real mixed bag, with only a few SF types and a bunch of various NATO mech inf, marines, rangers and cavalry types. As the campaign went on there was pretty high turnover of characters but we found that the SF types tended to have slightly higher rates of survivability.

By the time the party got back to the CONUS it was probably 1/3 SF types and 2/3 conventional troops. The command cadre was however all SF types. Once back in Norfolk Major Po put a great deal of effort in headhunting specifically SF personnel. He was most successful in grabbing SF types who were known to either himself or the other SF troops in his command cadre (especially former members of "Team Panama" which I have described in other posts). For the first month or so back in the CONUS he ran his unit of 20 or so bodies as a mixed bag conglomeration, forming ad-hoc teams as the need arose. Eventually though he had built his team up to in excess of 50 bodies. Then he reformed the whole unit as the spec ops task force "SOG 1" and assigned his SF personnel to permanent teams of around 10 men each. Each team tended to have one type of SF personnel. So for instance Blue Team contained mostly SEALs, SDV and SBU personnel and was led by Po's XO, USN SEAL Lt Cdr Tadeusz Jones. Black Team contained US and UK Marines and a member of the British SBS and was led by the ancient and crusty USMC Captain (formerly Gunnery Sgt) Bart Lamont (an NPC based closely on Gunny Tom Highway from "Heartbreak Ridge). Green Team contained mostly US Army Special Forces troops and was nominally commanded by Po himself (although the team's 2IC was usually in operational command). Red Team contained some Ranger qualified troops as well as some similarly qualified foreigners (including a Pakistani and a Filipino). The rest of the unit consisted of twenty-something support personnel and specialists drawn from a variety of branches and countries (off the top of my head there was a South African helicopter pilot, an F15 Eagle driver that Po had brought back from Poland, Po's girlfriend/radio operator, a mortar team, a Navy corpsman and various mechanics and technicians).

Darn it, now I really want to find all the cards for the teams. They contain the names, ranks, nicknames, major skills and personal weapons for every single member of Po's unit.

[waiting4something]

I would never want to use mixed special ops forces or regular forces together for the reasons of them being rivals. I mean it might work in a big operation where each group has different jobs, like they attack different tagets or points of the same targets. But there is just to much "hatred" for this groups to really work smooth. When there is only a few guys left in each group well then they might have to, but otherwise I don't see it as a good idea. Shit when I was in we didn't trust most guys outside our platoon. We hated other companies and battalions. There is also a big west coast vs. east coast hatred too. As far as seperate branches we had no respect for them. Army special forces was really the only group that guys I knew thought were great. One platoon got to train with them once. I sure the special forces guys didn't so though. They just out classed us period.

[boogiedowndonovan]

more on what Rae said about SOF training together, NATO operated a Long Range Reconnaissance School in Germany which trained various SOF.

It celebrated it's 30th anniversary last July.

http://www.army.mil/-news/2009/07/02...pecial-forces/

[sic1701]

pmulcahy11b, in addition to operating turf wars, there were and are and always will be political and budgetary turf wars...the branch and SpecOps area that impresses the decision-makers (whether political or military decision-makers...) will get the mission, even if they may not necessarily be the best pick for the job at hand, for the political capital or reputation or budget enhancements that come with the mission.

A senator or congressman or secretary or undersecretary will stump for whoever strokes them the most. Delta or Seal Six or FBI's HRT might be the best group for the hostage rescue mission being passed around, but you can bet a senator on the Armed Forces Committee who might lose his military installation(s) in the next BRAC round will tell the rest of them that, you bet, the MEU(SOC) at his state's Marine base will better do the mission than any of those other guys. And though both the Army general and Navy admiral who oversee Delta and Seal Six (and maybe even the Marine officer administering the MEU(SOC)...) are looking at each other and thinking, "WTF is Senator Blowhard thinking?", if Senator Blowhard can convince the SecDef or whoever else he needs to, sure 'nuf the MEU(SOC) will receive new tasking orders.

And I've never quite understood why it is that Army Aviation doesn't get the A-10. I believe the AH-64 is the next-best-thing, but still since Army Av got the Mohawk fixed-wing aircraft (I think, anyway...saw some on the tarmac at Fort Rucker while I was stationed there), I can't think of any good, well-intentioned reason why the Warthogs didn't transfer over to Army Av long ago. Can you elaborate further?

[sic1701]

Raellus, I see your point. Attrition of U.S. Special Operations units during the Twilight War might force elements to work together who have not before (and traditionally do not, in peacetime)...additionally, there is no experience like an active war to put the finishing touches on training and modification of ways and means to prosecute a conflict. At least ad-hoc units conglomerated from various SOCOM branches can point to specific Twilight War operations or missions and say, "We did it this way, and it worked." and maybe prevent or ameliorate a turf war or pissing contest.

[Raellus]

Thanks for the affirmation guys (and the link, BDD).

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I would never want to use mixed special ops forces or regular forces together for the reasons of them being rivals.

Maybe in peacetime or in the early stages of WWIII. However after the TDM, army units would contain loads of sailors and aircrew who'd lost their ships and aircraft to attrition and fuel shortages. Closer to 2000, this most certainly would be the case- I think interservice rivalry would soon become a thing of the past as pragmatism took over. By 2000, the army would be the most powerful of the U.S. service branches by far. The navy and the AF would have lost most- if not all- of their "political" clout.

Besides, you're not going to need very many SEALs for beach recon and harbor sabotage missions after the TDM. Likewise, you're not going to need many USAF pararescue men or combat controllers because most surviving combat aircraft will be grounded due to lack of fuel and spare parts. These guys have skills that will be in short supply. It would be insane for the army to turn its back on their services. It makes much more sense to incorporate them into ad-hoc SF units under army control.
And NATO SOF routinely train and operate together. I really don't see this as much of an obstacle.

Jester, my man, you are hardly impartial but that's a decent point.

[sic1701]

While we're on the subject of special operations forces, I would like to fill in some gaps. Going on my memory, I can list the following SOCOM components, but could you fine folks fill in some of the gaps and/or correct me as needed?

Army...Rangers, Special Forces (Green Berets), Delta Force (AKA Special Operations Detachment-Delta), SOAR (Special Operations Aviation Regiment). I've seen patches labled "Recondo", but I am thinking it is more of a school than a unit, in much the same vein that one can go to Ranger school and earn the tab but not necessarily be posted to a Ranger regiment. Likewise, are Army snipers called "scout-snipers"?

Navy...SEALs. And who are the people who operate the rubber raiding craft? Are they SEALs, or something else?

Air Force...Pararescue, and Combat-Controllers. I have heard the term Air Commandos, but did not know specifically what that is.

Marine Corps...Reconnaissance, and Force Reconnaissance. As well as MEU (SOC).

Regarding foreign special operations forces, these are all that come to mind at the moment. And if you wouldn't mind telling us what would be the rough American equivalent (i.e. SAS is akin to Delta, GSG-9 is more like the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team, etc).

United Kingdom...Special Air Service (and do they belong to the British Army, or the RAF?). Special Boat Service. Do the Para regiments belong to the British version of SOCOM?

Germany...GSG-9. And I think they have some 3-letter acronym for their version of SEALs.

France...I couldn't tell you.

Israel...Sayaret Commandos.

Russia...Spetsnaz, of course. Do the VDV qualify?

Don't let me down, boys.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by sic1701

And I've never quite understood why it is that Army Aviation doesn't get the A-10. I believe the AH-64 is the next-best-thing, but still since Army Av got the Mohawk fixed-wing aircraft (I think, anyway...saw some on the tarmac at Fort Rucker while I was stationed there), I can't think of any good, well-intentioned reason why the Warthogs didn't transfer over to Army Av long ago. Can you elaborate further?

The OV-1s are armed with nothing heavier than machineguns and smoke rockets. That's all the Air Farce will allow us. And while you're add it, transfer the AC-130s to Army control, and give us some Harriers too.

[sic1701]

Army Aviation should have anything with vertical lift capability that also qualifies as reconnaissance and/or air support.

I've always been kinda partial to the MV-22 Osprey attack version (with 20mm Vulcan and rocket pods) as described in many of the Dale Brown novels.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by sic1701

While we're on the subject of special operations forces, I would like to fill in some gaps. Going on my memory, I can list the following SOCOM components, but could you fine folks fill in some of the gaps and/or correct me as needed?

United Kingdom...Special Air Service (and do they belong to the British Army, or the RAF?). Special Boat Service. Do the Para regiments belong to the British version of SOCOM?

Don't let me down, boys.

Hi Sic,

Special Air Service are part of the Army. Special Boat Service are part of the Royal Navy. They both form part of United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF), and report to the Director, Special Forces (DSF), who is the senior Special Forces officer in the UK. UKSF would, I would think, be our version of SOCCOM.

The Parachute Regiment has three Battalions (1, 2, and 3). In the Twilight timeline (either v1 or v2) all three Battalions would be part of the regular British Army. Since the mid 1980's two Battalions would usually be assigned to 5th Airborne Brigade, whilst the third could be assigned to any non mechanised infantry role (e.g. Northern Ireland tour, Allied Mobile Force (Land) Battalion, standby for non NATO operations, etc). The Battalions rotated between assignments; exact time in each assignment varies, but would usually be between 18 - 24 months (occasionally longer).

There were also a further three Territorial Army (roughly similar to US National Guard) Para Battalions (4, 10, and 15); they formed the Parachute Regiment Group and were meant to be assigned to the 1st Armoured Division in Germany in the event of War.

At the end of the Cold War 10 and 15 Para were both stood down, leaving 4 Para as the only Territorial Parachute Battalion.

In real life airborne forces were restructured in 2006 and 1 Para was permanently assigned to the Special Forces Support Group, a new formation which also includes elements of the RAF Regiment, Royal Signals, and Royal Marines. The other two Battalions form the core of 16 Air Assault Brigade (the successor to the 5th Airborne Brigade).

Hope this helps - any queries just give me a shout and I'll try and answer!

Cheers

Dave

[Abbott Shaull]

Okay by 2000 in a t2k setting tuft wars of the past should of been check-in to the trash bin. By the time 2000 and beyond, joint special ops teams would be formed more often than not, so a well rounded team can be fielded. By this time lot of the trash thinking they were the best and only one who can do the job properly would take a second seat to being able to field a team to get the job done. Those operators who weren't playing well with others, may find themselves as HQ puke or worse in Light Infantry unit where due to their rank, they are left being under people who don't realize what they can do, or worse always pick their sub-unit for the dangerous missions because they have Rambo with them, they should be able to do anything....

Now with that said, if we roll back to 1999 and before. I agree with Paul and others with US Special Ops forces especially. Too much baggage each Service brings to the the team would make them almost band of misfits who don't know how to play together. There are some operators who don't give crap about being inter-service rivals while other thrive off it.

[sic1701]

Rainbow Six, thanks for the good information! I appreciate the details.

Another question, if I may...I have heard the term "Flight Sergeant" used in reference to the RAF, but did not know if that meant Sergeants actually fly the aircraft (in the United States military, only commissioned officers and warrant officers fly aircraft) or if what you call a Flight Sergeant is what we'd call a crew chief (i.e. the senior enlisted man who takes care of the aircraft). Can you clarify?

[sic1701]

Abbott Shaull, good point...one would think that surviving SpecOps personnel would have no reason for turf wars especially with organized military budgeting a thing of the past ("Will work for MREs" signs might be more prevalent...). Hopefully, conglomerated units would adapt the best and most tried-and-true techniques from all sources and there wouldn't be anyone upset about having to do it the "SEAL way" and such.

But I would also tend to believe that in the aftermath of a global war that still grinds on in many ways and shapes and forms, surviving operators would be pressed into service as instructors and cadre rather than remain as operators, the occasional mission of absolute necessity aside...surviving operators who knew their business would have too much knowledge and tradecraft to pass on to trainees to be risked in such a manner, one would think (or hope!).

[Spec6]

I hate to say it but I think the services would keep there Spec Ops guys among themselfs . The Services have too many Empire builders in them to let there service men out of there services to play with others .

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by sic1701

Army Aviation should have anything with vertical lift capability that also qualifies as reconnaissance and/or air support.

I've always been kinda partial to the MV-22 Osprey attack version (with 20mm Vulcan and rocket pods) as described in many of the Dale Brown novels.

Oh, the Pave Hammer is hot! I think I have one on my "Best Aircraft that Never Were" page. I have to do the EB-52 series one of these days...

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by sic1701

Rainbow Six, thanks for the good information! I appreciate the details.

Another question, if I may...I have heard the term "Flight Sergeant" used in reference to the RAF, but did not know if that meant Sergeants actually fly the aircraft (in the United States military, only commissioned officers and warrant officers fly aircraft) or if what you call a Flight Sergeant is what we'd call a crew chief (i.e. the senior enlisted man who takes care of the aircraft). Can you clarify?

Hi Sic,

In the RAF only commissioned officers fly aircraft (historically the RAF did have NCO pilots, but this was discontinued in the 1950's). Same for Navigators, WSO's, etc - they're all commisioned officers.

A Flight Sergeant is a relatively senior grade (I think it's roughly similar to US E 7 grade) and can be an aircrew or ground trade. Aircrew trades would include such things as Loadmasters on C130's and helos, winch operators etc . Ground Trade covers a number of roles (to be honest I don't know if the RAF has a direct equivalent of a crew chief who takes ownership of one specific aircraft).

I'm at work at the minute so can't confirm 100% but I think the Army still has NCO helo pilots - when I get home I'll check a couple of books and confirm for sure one way or the other.

Cheers

[sic1701]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Oh, the Pave Hammer is hot! I think I have one on my "Best Aircraft that Never Were" page. I have to do the EB-52 series one of these days...

May we please have a link to this page? (drools)

[sic1701]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Hi Sic,

In the RAF only commissioned officers fly aircraft (historically the RAF did have NCO pilots, but this was discontinued in the 1950's). Same for Navigators, WSO's, etc - they're all commisioned officers.

A Flight Sergeant is a relatively senior grade (I think it's roughly similar to US E 7 grade) and can be an aircrew or ground trade. Aircrew trades would include such things as Loadmasters on C130's and helos, winch operators etc . Ground Trade covers a number of roles (to be honest I don't know if the RAF has a direct equivalent of a crew chief who takes ownership of one specific aircraft).

I'm at work at the minute so can't confirm 100% but I think the Army still has NCO helo pilots - when I get home I'll check a couple of books and confirm for sure one way or the other.

Cheers

I appreciate the info, Rainbow Six; will stay tuned for the NCO helo pilots update.

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by sic1701

While we're on the subject of special operations forces, I would like to fill in some gaps. Going on my memory, I can list the following SOCOM components, but could you fine folks fill in some of the gaps and/or correct me as needed?

Army...Rangers, Special Forces (Green Berets), Delta Force (AKA Special Operations Detachment-Delta), SOAR (Special Operations Aviation Regiment). I've seen patches labled "Recondo", but I am thinking it is more of a school than a unit, in much the same vein that one can go to Ranger school and earn the tab but not necessarily be posted to a Ranger regiment. Likewise, are Army snipers called "scout-snipers"?

Navy...SEALs. And who are the people who operate the rubber raiding craft? Are they SEALs, or something else?

Air Force...Pararescue, and Combat-Controllers. I have heard the term Air Commandos, but did not know specifically what that is.

Marine Corps...Reconnaissance, and Force Reconnaissance. As well as MEU (SOC).

Regarding foreign special operations forces, these are all that come to mind at the moment. And if you wouldn't mind telling us what would be the rough American equivalent (i.e. SAS is akin to Delta, GSG-9 is more like the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team, etc).

United Kingdom...Special Air Service (and do they belong to the British Army, or the RAF?). Special Boat Service. Do the Para regiments belong to the British version of SOCOM?

Germany...GSG-9. And I think they have some 3-letter acronym for their version of SEALs.

France...I couldn't tell you.

Israel...Sayaret Commandos.

Russia...Spetsnaz, of course. Do the VDV qualify?

Don't let me down, boys.

Sic,

for what its worth, wikipedia is a decent source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...l_forces_units

You can try these sites also:

http://www.specialoperations.com/intspecops.html

http://www.specwarnet.net/sf.htm

-bdd

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by sic1701

May we please have a link to this page? (drools)

Well, having a site that's big enough that I can't remember the names of individual pages...the home page is

www.pmulcahy.com

Look for the Best Stuff that Never Was link, and go from there. There's also a Google Search box on the home page.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Hi Sic,

In the RAF only commissioned officers fly aircraft (historically the RAF did have NCO pilots, but this was discontinued in the 1950's). Same for Navigators, WSO's, etc - they're all commisioned officers.

A Flight Sergeant is a relatively senior grade (I think it's roughly similar to US E 7 grade) and can be an aircrew or ground trade. Aircrew trades would include such things as Loadmasters on C130's and helos, winch operators etc . Ground Trade covers a number of roles (to be honest I don't know if the RAF has a direct equivalent of a crew chief who takes ownership of one specific aircraft).

I'm at work at the minute so can't confirm 100% but I think the Army still has NCO helo pilots - when I get home I'll check a couple of books and confirm for sure one way or the other.

Cheers

In the late 1980s, there was a movement to allow E-7 and above helicopter pilots in the US Army, but it eventually came to nothing.

[Rainbow Six]

Ok, am home and have checked two different books (and a website I could have checked at work!) and can confirm that the Army Air Corps does indeed have NCO helicopter pilots (one source states that NCO's actually make up the majority of the AAC's pilots). It looks like all NCO pilots are either Sergeants or Staff Sergeants - I can't find any reference to any pilots below that rank.

Cheers