Special Forces Units

[waiting4something]

I would never want to use mixed special ops forces or regular forces together for the reasons of them being rivals. I mean it might work in a big operation where each group has different jobs, like they attack different tagets or points of the same targets. But there is just to much "hatred" for this groups to really work smooth. When there is only a few guys left in each group well then they might have to, but otherwise I don't see it as a good idea. Shit when I was in we didn't trust most guys outside our platoon. We hated other companies and battalions. There is also a big west coast vs. east coast hatred too. As far as seperate branches we had no respect for them. Army special forces was really the only group that guys I knew thought were great. One platoon got to train with them once. I sure the special forces guys didn't so though. They just out classed us period.

[boogiedowndonovan]

more on what Rae said about SOF training together, NATO operated a Long Range Reconnaissance School in Germany which trained various SOF.

It celebrated it's 30th anniversary last July.

http://www.army.mil/-news/2009/07/02...pecial-forces/

[sic1701]

pmulcahy11b, in addition to operating turf wars, there were and are and always will be political and budgetary turf wars...the branch and SpecOps area that impresses the decision-makers (whether political or military decision-makers...) will get the mission, even if they may not necessarily be the best pick for the job at hand, for the political capital or reputation or budget enhancements that come with the mission.

A senator or congressman or secretary or undersecretary will stump for whoever strokes them the most. Delta or Seal Six or FBI's HRT might be the best group for the hostage rescue mission being passed around, but you can bet a senator on the Armed Forces Committee who might lose his military installation(s) in the next BRAC round will tell the rest of them that, you bet, the MEU(SOC) at his state's Marine base will better do the mission than any of those other guys. And though both the Army general and Navy admiral who oversee Delta and Seal Six (and maybe even the Marine officer administering the MEU(SOC)...) are looking at each other and thinking, "WTF is Senator Blowhard thinking?", if Senator Blowhard can convince the SecDef or whoever else he needs to, sure 'nuf the MEU(SOC) will receive new tasking orders.

And I've never quite understood why it is that Army Aviation doesn't get the A-10. I believe the AH-64 is the next-best-thing, but still since Army Av got the Mohawk fixed-wing aircraft (I think, anyway...saw some on the tarmac at Fort Rucker while I was stationed there), I can't think of any good, well-intentioned reason why the Warthogs didn't transfer over to Army Av long ago. Can you elaborate further?

[sic1701]

Raellus, I see your point. Attrition of U.S. Special Operations units during the Twilight War might force elements to work together who have not before (and traditionally do not, in peacetime)...additionally, there is no experience like an active war to put the finishing touches on training and modification of ways and means to prosecute a conflict. At least ad-hoc units conglomerated from various SOCOM branches can point to specific Twilight War operations or missions and say, "We did it this way, and it worked." and maybe prevent or ameliorate a turf war or pissing contest.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by sic1701

And I've never quite understood why it is that Army Aviation doesn't get the A-10. I believe the AH-64 is the next-best-thing, but still since Army Av got the Mohawk fixed-wing aircraft (I think, anyway...saw some on the tarmac at Fort Rucker while I was stationed there), I can't think of any good, well-intentioned reason why the Warthogs didn't transfer over to Army Av long ago. Can you elaborate further?

The OV-1s are armed with nothing heavier than machineguns and smoke rockets. That's all the Air Farce will allow us. And while you're add it, transfer the AC-130s to Army control, and give us some Harriers too.

[sic1701]

Army Aviation should have anything with vertical lift capability that also qualifies as reconnaissance and/or air support.

I've always been kinda partial to the MV-22 Osprey attack version (with 20mm Vulcan and rocket pods) as described in many of the Dale Brown novels.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by sic1701

Army Aviation should have anything with vertical lift capability that also qualifies as reconnaissance and/or air support.

I've always been kinda partial to the MV-22 Osprey attack version (with 20mm Vulcan and rocket pods) as described in many of the Dale Brown novels.

Oh, the Pave Hammer is hot! I think I have one on my "Best Aircraft that Never Were" page. I have to do the EB-52 series one of these days...

[sic1701]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Oh, the Pave Hammer is hot! I think I have one on my "Best Aircraft that Never Were" page. I have to do the EB-52 series one of these days...

May we please have a link to this page? (drools)

[Raellus]

Thanks for the affirmation guys (and the link, BDD).

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I would never want to use mixed special ops forces or regular forces together for the reasons of them being rivals.

Maybe in peacetime or in the early stages of WWIII. However after the TDM, army units would contain loads of sailors and aircrew who'd lost their ships and aircraft to attrition and fuel shortages. Closer to 2000, this most certainly would be the case- I think interservice rivalry would soon become a thing of the past as pragmatism took over. By 2000, the army would be the most powerful of the U.S. service branches by far. The navy and the AF would have lost most- if not all- of their "political" clout.

Besides, you're not going to need very many SEALs for beach recon and harbor sabotage missions after the TDM. Likewise, you're not going to need many USAF pararescue men or combat controllers because most surviving combat aircraft will be grounded due to lack of fuel and spare parts. These guys have skills that will be in short supply. It would be insane for the army to turn its back on their services. It makes much more sense to incorporate them into ad-hoc SF units under army control.
And NATO SOF routinely train and operate together. I really don't see this as much of an obstacle.

Jester, my man, you are hardly impartial but that's a decent point.

[sic1701]

While we're on the subject of special operations forces, I would like to fill in some gaps. Going on my memory, I can list the following SOCOM components, but could you fine folks fill in some of the gaps and/or correct me as needed?

Army...Rangers, Special Forces (Green Berets), Delta Force (AKA Special Operations Detachment-Delta), SOAR (Special Operations Aviation Regiment). I've seen patches labled "Recondo", but I am thinking it is more of a school than a unit, in much the same vein that one can go to Ranger school and earn the tab but not necessarily be posted to a Ranger regiment. Likewise, are Army snipers called "scout-snipers"?

Navy...SEALs. And who are the people who operate the rubber raiding craft? Are they SEALs, or something else?

Air Force...Pararescue, and Combat-Controllers. I have heard the term Air Commandos, but did not know specifically what that is.

Marine Corps...Reconnaissance, and Force Reconnaissance. As well as MEU (SOC).

Regarding foreign special operations forces, these are all that come to mind at the moment. And if you wouldn't mind telling us what would be the rough American equivalent (i.e. SAS is akin to Delta, GSG-9 is more like the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team, etc).

United Kingdom...Special Air Service (and do they belong to the British Army, or the RAF?). Special Boat Service. Do the Para regiments belong to the British version of SOCOM?

Germany...GSG-9. And I think they have some 3-letter acronym for their version of SEALs.

France...I couldn't tell you.

Israel...Sayaret Commandos.

Russia...Spetsnaz, of course. Do the VDV qualify?

Don't let me down, boys.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by sic1701

While we're on the subject of special operations forces, I would like to fill in some gaps. Going on my memory, I can list the following SOCOM components, but could you fine folks fill in some of the gaps and/or correct me as needed?

United Kingdom...Special Air Service (and do they belong to the British Army, or the RAF?). Special Boat Service. Do the Para regiments belong to the British version of SOCOM?

Don't let me down, boys.

Hi Sic,

Special Air Service are part of the Army. Special Boat Service are part of the Royal Navy. They both form part of United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF), and report to the Director, Special Forces (DSF), who is the senior Special Forces officer in the UK. UKSF would, I would think, be our version of SOCCOM.

The Parachute Regiment has three Battalions (1, 2, and 3). In the Twilight timeline (either v1 or v2) all three Battalions would be part of the regular British Army. Since the mid 1980's two Battalions would usually be assigned to 5th Airborne Brigade, whilst the third could be assigned to any non mechanised infantry role (e.g. Northern Ireland tour, Allied Mobile Force (Land) Battalion, standby for non NATO operations, etc). The Battalions rotated between assignments; exact time in each assignment varies, but would usually be between 18 - 24 months (occasionally longer).

There were also a further three Territorial Army (roughly similar to US National Guard) Para Battalions (4, 10, and 15); they formed the Parachute Regiment Group and were meant to be assigned to the 1st Armoured Division in Germany in the event of War.

At the end of the Cold War 10 and 15 Para were both stood down, leaving 4 Para as the only Territorial Parachute Battalion.

In real life airborne forces were restructured in 2006 and 1 Para was permanently assigned to the Special Forces Support Group, a new formation which also includes elements of the RAF Regiment, Royal Signals, and Royal Marines. The other two Battalions form the core of 16 Air Assault Brigade (the successor to the 5th Airborne Brigade).

Hope this helps - any queries just give me a shout and I'll try and answer!

Cheers

Dave

[Abbott Shaull]

Okay by 2000 in a t2k setting tuft wars of the past should of been check-in to the trash bin. By the time 2000 and beyond, joint special ops teams would be formed more often than not, so a well rounded team can be fielded. By this time lot of the trash thinking they were the best and only one who can do the job properly would take a second seat to being able to field a team to get the job done. Those operators who weren't playing well with others, may find themselves as HQ puke or worse in Light Infantry unit where due to their rank, they are left being under people who don't realize what they can do, or worse always pick their sub-unit for the dangerous missions because they have Rambo with them, they should be able to do anything....

Now with that said, if we roll back to 1999 and before. I agree with Paul and others with US Special Ops forces especially. Too much baggage each Service brings to the the team would make them almost band of misfits who don't know how to play together. There are some operators who don't give crap about being inter-service rivals while other thrive off it.

[sic1701]

Rainbow Six, thanks for the good information! I appreciate the details.

Another question, if I may...I have heard the term "Flight Sergeant" used in reference to the RAF, but did not know if that meant Sergeants actually fly the aircraft (in the United States military, only commissioned officers and warrant officers fly aircraft) or if what you call a Flight Sergeant is what we'd call a crew chief (i.e. the senior enlisted man who takes care of the aircraft). Can you clarify?

[sic1701]

Abbott Shaull, good point...one would think that surviving SpecOps personnel would have no reason for turf wars especially with organized military budgeting a thing of the past ("Will work for MREs" signs might be more prevalent...). Hopefully, conglomerated units would adapt the best and most tried-and-true techniques from all sources and there wouldn't be anyone upset about having to do it the "SEAL way" and such.

But I would also tend to believe that in the aftermath of a global war that still grinds on in many ways and shapes and forms, surviving operators would be pressed into service as instructors and cadre rather than remain as operators, the occasional mission of absolute necessity aside...surviving operators who knew their business would have too much knowledge and tradecraft to pass on to trainees to be risked in such a manner, one would think (or hope!).

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by sic1701

Rainbow Six, thanks for the good information! I appreciate the details.

Another question, if I may...I have heard the term "Flight Sergeant" used in reference to the RAF, but did not know if that meant Sergeants actually fly the aircraft (in the United States military, only commissioned officers and warrant officers fly aircraft) or if what you call a Flight Sergeant is what we'd call a crew chief (i.e. the senior enlisted man who takes care of the aircraft). Can you clarify?

Hi Sic,

In the RAF only commissioned officers fly aircraft (historically the RAF did have NCO pilots, but this was discontinued in the 1950's). Same for Navigators, WSO's, etc - they're all commisioned officers.

A Flight Sergeant is a relatively senior grade (I think it's roughly similar to US E 7 grade) and can be an aircrew or ground trade. Aircrew trades would include such things as Loadmasters on C130's and helos, winch operators etc . Ground Trade covers a number of roles (to be honest I don't know if the RAF has a direct equivalent of a crew chief who takes ownership of one specific aircraft).

I'm at work at the minute so can't confirm 100% but I think the Army still has NCO helo pilots - when I get home I'll check a couple of books and confirm for sure one way or the other.

Cheers

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by sic1701

While we're on the subject of special operations forces, I would like to fill in some gaps. Going on my memory, I can list the following SOCOM components, but could you fine folks fill in some of the gaps and/or correct me as needed?

Army...Rangers, Special Forces (Green Berets), Delta Force (AKA Special Operations Detachment-Delta), SOAR (Special Operations Aviation Regiment). I've seen patches labled "Recondo", but I am thinking it is more of a school than a unit, in much the same vein that one can go to Ranger school and earn the tab but not necessarily be posted to a Ranger regiment. Likewise, are Army snipers called "scout-snipers"?

Navy...SEALs. And who are the people who operate the rubber raiding craft? Are they SEALs, or something else?

Air Force...Pararescue, and Combat-Controllers. I have heard the term Air Commandos, but did not know specifically what that is.

Marine Corps...Reconnaissance, and Force Reconnaissance. As well as MEU (SOC).

Regarding foreign special operations forces, these are all that come to mind at the moment. And if you wouldn't mind telling us what would be the rough American equivalent (i.e. SAS is akin to Delta, GSG-9 is more like the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team, etc).

United Kingdom...Special Air Service (and do they belong to the British Army, or the RAF?). Special Boat Service. Do the Para regiments belong to the British version of SOCOM?

Germany...GSG-9. And I think they have some 3-letter acronym for their version of SEALs.

France...I couldn't tell you.

Israel...Sayaret Commandos.

Russia...Spetsnaz, of course. Do the VDV qualify?

Don't let me down, boys.

Sic,

for what its worth, wikipedia is a decent source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...l_forces_units

You can try these sites also:

http://www.specialoperations.com/intspecops.html

http://www.specwarnet.net/sf.htm

-bdd