Surplus armor in T2K

[waiting4something]

I wonder how many military vehicles have been stolen that are in private civilian hands. I could see like a M48 sitting in someones storage shed. There was a case awhile back where some guys stole over a hundred military vehicles from Fort McCoy. It seems likely to me this could happen easily when you have stuff that is no longer being used. The guy at the gate most likely wouldn't think much of it.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/1996...t-ring-broken/

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I wonder how many military vehicles have been stolen that are in private civilian hands. I could see like a M48 sitting in someones storage shed. There was a case awhile back where some guys stole over a hundred military vehicles from Fort McCoy. It seems likely to me this could happen easily when you have stuff that is no longer being used. The guy at the gate most likely wouldn't think much of it.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/1996...t-ring-broken/

speaking of which, anyone remember when a mentally disturbed person broke into a National Guard armory and stole an M-60?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zINN5EUMwwc

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

speaking of which, anyone remember when a mentally disturbed person broke into a National Guard armory and stole an M-60?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zINN5EUMwwc

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.

Instead, two cops pop the loaders hatch and blast the guy with a dozen 9mm...

[copeab]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.

I can't blame the cops for this one. It's not like part of their training should have been on how to disable a tank.

Now, I'm sure men from the National Guard could have known how to do this, but there are legal issues in using them.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by copeab

I can't blame the cops for this one. It's not like part of their training should have been on how to disable a tank.

Now, I'm sure men from the National Guard could have known how to do this, but there are legal issues in using them.

Well as for the legal issues, it does take awhile for the paper trail chain to catch up with events.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by copeab

I can't blame the cops for this one. It's not like part of their training should have been on how to disable a tank.

Now, I'm sure men from the National Guard could have known how to do this, but there are legal issues in using them.

There are a lot of stories floating around the NG about various NG officers/NCOs calling the CHiPs and telling them how to disable the tank by doing just that. Wouldn't have required the NG to physically do it, just tell a cop what to do...and don't forget the cops knew enough to use a hammer to pop the loader's vison block hatch and reach in to open the hatch...they listened to at least some of what they were told...

Don't get me wrong, IF the police were convinced that he posed harm, then they had every right to do so....but this was a NG tank that means no ammunition, no crew-served weapons, no firing pin for the main gun, it was also straddling a highway barricade...the tank wasn't going anywhere else that day. IIRC they had to use two cranes to get the tank off of the barriers, it wasn't going to do it on its own.

As for the cops not having tear gas available....look at the news footage, there were at least three officers running around with tear gas launchers.

And there is this to consider as well, the tank driver has been accused of being mentally incomptent...my own opinion is that if he was not responsible for his own actions, then empting a 9mm into him was excessive.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.

Instead, two cops pop the loaders hatch and blast the guy with a dozen 9mm...

I agree with you once he was hung up and wasn't posing a threat they could have done something non-lethal like throw some CS gas in the tank. I mean it didn't look like he was going anywhere. Of course, this is if they had time to get some CS grenades from the armory. If he did break free again I could see shooting him though. A lot of what you discribed on how to stop it only someone with knowledge in armor would know. Your average joe would be thinking how the hell do I stop this thing.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.

You can't be serious. Think about it.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Always had problems with the police overreaction to that incident...yes the guy had gone on a rampage...but all the cops had to do was get on the front slope of the tank...and pull both shots on the fire extinguishers that would dumped 20lbs of CO2 into the engine and turned off the fuel pumps as well. Once the tank hung up, by opening the left rearmost top grill door, they would have had access to the tank's steering linkage, a dozen turns with a 7/16 box would have left the guy unable to steer...then it would have been a matter of waiting him out...and in a tank in a California summer it wouldn't have been long before he gave up.

Instead, two cops pop the loaders hatch and blast the guy with a dozen 9mm...

Uhm... I would have to agree with others. Lot of the things you mention to stop the tank, wouldn't of been known to many people outside of people who had served in the military.

As for opening the loaders hatch and blasting the guy with 9mm, yeah that was overkill.

I totally agree once he got hung up, they could simply wait him out.

[Abbott Shaull]

The thing is not only surplus Armor. At the Lake Superior State University campus there is not only old M60 tank, but also what looks to be 105mm How., maybe it 75mm one. The point is I have seen lot of the old artillery pieces spread out in front of this Armory or out on display here.

Not claiming that it would be easy to get any of these surplus piece in proper working order. Yet one paragraph in the game where it explain even if the unit wasn't entirely operational, have a few AFVs or IFVs or Armor Cars were more than enough to swing a battle into their owner favor. Especially if you were up against forces not equipped to take on such vehicles it was easier to run than stand and fight.

In many cases where a particular faction had Vehicle or artillery pieces they went to great details to explain what was malfunction if anything and what type of ammo reserve they had. T-72 with only Commander MG working, would still cause troops to run, a unit taking to the field with even a towed how. would cause the opposing force to be nervous. By 2000 it was the unknown on if they were operational or not. I can imagine seeing even Company or Battalion size force show up and setting up mortars would be bit unnerving to an militia unit that short on ammo, even though the other force may have two to four round per mortar tub. The average militia person wouldn't know that after they fired their first rounds...

Just some thoughts.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

The thing is not only surplus Armor. At the Lake Superior State University campus there is not only old M60 tank, but also what looks to be 105mm How., maybe it 75mm one. The point is I have seen lot of the old artillery pieces spread out in front of this Armory or out on display here.

Not claiming that it would be easy to get any of these surplus piece in proper working order. Yet one paragraph in the game where it explain even if the unit wasn't entirely operational, have a few AFVs or IFVs or Armor Cars were more than enough to swing a battle into their owner favor. Especially if you were up against forces not equipped to take on such vehicles it was easier to run than stand and fight.

In many cases where a particular faction had Vehicle or artillery pieces they went to great details to explain what was malfunction if anything and what type of ammo reserve they had. T-72 with only Commander MG working, would still cause troops to run, a unit taking to the field with even a towed how. would cause the opposing force to be nervous. By 2000 it was the unknown on if they were operational or not. I can imagine seeing even Company or Battalion size force show up and setting up mortars would be bit unnerving to an militia unit that short on ammo, even though the other force may have two to four round per mortar tub. The average militia person wouldn't know that after they fired their first rounds...

Just some thoughts.

That's the problem with the display pieces, they have all been demilled which means that at least three holes have been cut into the tank barrel, the breech is either missing or has been welded in place.

Its likely that armored cars from the various transport firms (like Wells Fargo or Loomis) would be used. Their firing ports are cur for either pistols or shotguns. The larger interstate transports (think armored Greyhound Bus) would be used, but these are very rare. The most likely candiate would be home-built armored trucks, doesn't have to stop antitank rounds, but a 1/2-inch to 1 inch would stop most pistol/rifle rounds.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah the New America module in southern Florida covered that. Their Armored Cavalry and Fast Cavalry were built around the various Armor Cars from these companies.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

That's the problem with the display pieces, they have all been demilled which means that at least three holes have been cut into the tank barrel, the breech is either missing or has been welded in place.

Agreed, though for settlements with some engineering know how but without the wherewithal to build a cannon foundry, it wouldn't be beyond the realm of the possible to have something like a de-mil'ed 105mm gun converted to a lower pressure black powder breech or muzzle loader. (Of course, putting a 12 pounder Napoleon back in service would probably be even easier . . .)

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

speaking of which, anyone remember when a mentally disturbed person broke into a National Guard armory and stole an M-60?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zINN5EUMwwc

I thought this was one of the coolest things ever captured on film. It was way better then that Tiananmen Square tank bullshit.