*Post*-TDM armor production.

[Arrissen]

Well that's true about Japan, but I think that once the nukes fly all bets are off and they could do whatever the hell they like. Besides the only reason they weren't "allowed" to deployed O/S was because of US policy/ enforcement after WWII, who having seen how very frightening and naughty they can be, decided that it was probably best if they just stayed home and did what they were told. Kind of like a punk kid who's been grounded. And, you know they sure know how to bounce back.

What about South America? Is there much info about what happened there in T2K? A few countries there make AFV's.

[Legbreaker]

I wouldn't write off the Japanese reluctance to deploy abroad. Look at what happened when a medical unit was sent to the middle east a couple of years ago - it almost brought down the government even though they weren't combat troops but there for humanitarian reasons.

No, Japanese troops would remain firmly within Japanese borders unless something absolutely catastrophic occurred.

This isn't to say their produce wouldn't be exported or that western units wouldn't be welcome to spend R&R in the country (while transportation to and fro was still possible).

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

No, Japanese troops would remain firmly within Japanese borders unless something absolutely catastrophic occurred.

Something MORE catastrophic than World War III?

IMO, I was surprised that Japanese forces haven't appeared to assist the Chinese in Manchuria vs. the Soviets, or replaced/reinforced the US forces in Korea in 1998.

AFAIK, their navy should be intact, and I can't recall if they were nuked much or not. If they have armor production facilities, they would need steel & other components, which would have to be bought from... China? or wherever their peacetime sources were. Selling that armor to the US and shipping it to either the Korean or California fronts seems like a winner of an idea in 1998 or 1999.

Regarding them being major regional players, I quite agree. If they are undamaged, they could certainly make a stab at being the power of the Pacific, as long as they can keep the oil flowing.

Anyway, back to armored production, I do recall from reading the nukes list that the Lima, Ohio plant for making M1's is near the top of the list. I don't recall where the Bradley/Devers AMGeneral plant is.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

If we go with the RDF/LT (LAV-75 and variants - that's a wonderful thread that got resurrected) as being produced by AAI primarily (which we can: they're the ones who proposed it back in the 80s) then the production facilities are just north of Baltimore, 60mi. north of DC. They might (MIGHT) be OK. But probably not.

[Abbott Shaull]

Brazil and South Africa come to mind as arms exporters.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Brazil and South Africa come to mind as arms exporters.

Twilight War South Africa . . . I'd think it largely implodes, but with some areas hanging on. Possibly even some industrial areas -- and SADF was already heavily in the market for lighter/cheaper AFVs that would be easier to keep in production if things were stable enough for it.

Brazil is pretty much the same -- both in terms of capability and questionable ability to keep their situation together enough to use it post-TDM. Very large agricultural sector in that country but it's mostly agribusiness for export and they're actually a net importer of even basic staples like rice and beans (food is comparatively very expensive in Brazil). In the Twilight timeline, Brazil may have been actively producing the EE-T1 Osorio MBT that didn't make it IRL at least in part due to the end of the Cold War.

Argentina also has the production line for the TAM light tank or medium tank and vehicles based on that hull.

Not sure if anyone else in South America had any even light AFV production capability, but may be forgetting something.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Something MORE catastrophic than World War III?

IMO, I was surprised that Japanese forces haven't appeared to assist the Chinese in Manchuria vs. the Soviets, or replaced/reinforced the US forces in Korea in 1998.

AFAIK, their navy should be intact, and I can't recall if they were nuked much or not. If they have armor production facilities, they would need steel & other components, which would have to be bought from... China? or wherever their peacetime sources were. Selling that armor to the US and shipping it to either the Korean or California fronts seems like a winner of an idea in 1998 or 1999.

Regarding them being major regional players, I quite agree. If they are undamaged, they could certainly make a stab at being the power of the Pacific, as long as they can keep the oil flowing.

Anyway, back to armored production, I do recall from reading the nukes list that the Lima, Ohio plant for making M1's is near the top of the list. I don't recall where the Bradley/Devers AMGeneral plant is.

The one thing about Japan is getting raw materials after TDM.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Something MORE catastrophic than World War III?

IMO, I was surprised that Japanese forces haven't appeared to assist the Chinese in Manchuria vs. the Soviets, or replaced/reinforced the US forces in Korea in 1998.

AFAIK, their navy should be intact, and I can't recall if they were nuked much or not. If they have armor production facilities, they would need steel & other components, which would have to be bought from... China? or wherever their peacetime sources were. Selling that armor to the US and shipping it to either the Korean or California fronts seems like a winner of an idea in 1998 or 1999.

Regarding them being major regional players, I quite agree. If they are undamaged, they could certainly make a stab at being the power of the Pacific, as long as they can keep the oil flowing.

Anyway, back to armored production, I do recall from reading the nukes list that the Lima, Ohio plant for making M1's is near the top of the list. I don't recall where the Bradley/Devers AMGeneral plant is.

Considering that Japan has to import virtually all of its raw material, I think a good case could be argued for them siting naval bases to cover critical areas, of course, this would require troops to protect the bases, etc. This would, in turn, mean that they would try to coordinate with local governments, reinforcing them with military and economic aid.

[Abbott Shaull]

I also think the M1 Plant in Warren, was also a target which in the all the timelines would still be producing M1s. Gee to think one of the place I applied to work sits literally outside of this former plant. So glad the cold war is over. Don't know if I could live that close to target rich environment after leaving Soo Locks area.

[dragoon500ly]

Dad was stationed at this little place right outside of Omaha....it was a running joke on how the survivors would not need any external light sources as we would all be glowing from the near misses!

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Anyway, back to armored production, I do recall from reading the nukes list that the Lima, Ohio plant for making M1's is near the top of the list. I don't recall where the Bradley/Devers AMGeneral plant is.

The Lima plant is the subject of a Challenge magazine adventure (#56, The Lima Incident). The manufacturing plant is described as being relatively intact (according to the article the plant is in the north east of the City and the nuke strike hit to the south west).

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Something MORE catastrophic than World War III?

Again I come back to the Japanese constitution and the near ousting of the government just a couple of years ago due to a military medical team being sent abroad... Just imagine what would happen if they sent actual combat troops, even if it was ostensibly to ensure resources security.
Oh, wait, wasn't Japan's aggression in the 1930's all about resources security...?

Originally Posted by BYB

Japan: The war with the Soviets over Sakhalin Island and the Kuriles brough Japan under nuclear attack in late 1997. Japanese industry was heavily damaged, and Tokyo all but destroyed. Martial law was never formally proclaimed, but most areas are governed by military officers who hold both civil and military positions. Each community counts as insular or independant, although they are all nominally under central control. The large cities are devastated, mostly from the civil unrest which followed the breakdown of the world economy and cessation of foreign imports.

I think that effectively puts Japan out of the running for post nuke tank production, and places about 95%+ of their naval capability on the sea floor. Japan's not projecting their power anywhere for any reason for quite some years to come.

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Brazil and South Africa come to mind as arms exporters.

Originally Posted by BYB

Argentina/Brazil: The Argentinians attempted to reoccupy the Falklands/Malvinas after 1996, and the British were unable to spare more than a token force for the islands defence. Argentina itself withdrew when war broke out with Brazil in 1998, and a small scale exchange of low yield nuclear weapons between the two countries completed their slide into chaos. Central government in both countries has broken down, and both are now divided into semifeudal territories ruled by military juntas or local community governments.

Hmm, no, I don't see Brazil sparing a single military vehicle at any time in the late 90's and once Argentina and Brazil throw nukes at each other, they won't even be able to supply their own shattered forces.

South Africa on the other hand appears to have escaped the war fairly well, but has suffered significant civil upheaval. There is a chance they may have retained the relatively minor armour production capability they had in the 90's, but are unlikely to be in a position to be exporting anything.

[Tegyrius]

So, ah... where'd Argentina and Brazil get nukes to throw at each other?

- C.

[Arrissen]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

So, ah... where'd Argentina and Brazil get nukes to throw at each other?

- C.

I was wondering the same thing. Where is the info on that part of the world in the game?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

So, ah... where'd Argentina and Brazil get nukes to throw at each other?

Shhhhh! Stop using logic!

Does it matter though? Perhaps in the alternate timeline that is T2K they developed them themselves (using ex nazi scientists), or bought them from a third party? It really doesn't matter that much though. The important thing is that they are shown to have possessed and used them against each other thereby destroying the industrial capability of the region.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Regarding them being major regional players, I quite agree. If they are undamaged, they could certainly make a stab at being the power of the Pacific, as long as they can keep the oil flowing.

According to the Traveller:2300 timeline that's exactly what happened. In the 100 years following the Twilight War Japan was the premier maritime power in the Pacific, and in their hemisphere the Japanese almost single handedly kept international trade going in the first two or three post-Twilight War decades.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I wouldn't write off the Japanese reluctance to deploy abroad. Look at what happened when a medical unit was sent to the middle east a couple of years ago - it almost brought down the government even though they weren't combat troops but there for humanitarian reasons.

No, Japanese troops would remain firmly within Japanese borders unless something absolutely catastrophic occurred.

This isn't to say their produce wouldn't be exported or that western units wouldn't be welcome to spend R&R in the country (while transportation to and fro was still possible).

like T2K ...?

Japan has oil and food for possibly 6 months - after that its lights out and starvation. Being the only stable nation in the region it would have to aquire some petrochemicals and foodstuffs somewhere.

Its said that Japan could start today and have a weaponized nuclear device before 6 months have passed. I think they could reverse engineer and improve something like an AFV in a lot shorter time than that. As for materials - they could probably scrap such enormous amounts of metal from domestic consumer and industrial stocks that they could build hundreds if not thousands.

I dont think Japan would adopt an irresponsible stance though - they could be seen as deploying military assets to get their way. But also I think they would seek influence through humanitarian projects - like the distribution of pharmaceuticals - a commodity moreprecious than gold in T2K

-all imho h for humble as always

[HorseSoldier]

Once the nukes fly I think the Japanese constitution's restrictions on expeditonary military operations goes out the window fast -- but not so much in the sense of them trying to invade much of anywhere so much as establishing defended trading enclaves, piracy suppression at sea, and expeditionary work on land against warlords and such who get in the way. Just to feed the nation's population at present levels requires they continue to be food importers, fuel is obviously a desperate essential and all sorts of other raw materials are likewise going to have to come in from overseas. The JSDF is going to get pressed into service fighting to keep trade functional in the Pacific Rim, more a la the USMC's pre WW2 banana campaigns than the Greater East Asia Coprosperity Redux.

And they're inherently going to be overstretched in that role, so I see them trying to tie their efforts into some sort of coalition with stable friendly governments and pseudo governments that provide patches of stability like the surviving Australian government, New Zealand, the US garrison on Hawaii and the US/Canadian enclaves in the Pacific Northwest.

I could see them playing ball with the Soviet remnants in North America and elsewhere, though in my personal take on the situation in Alaska circa 2001, I have the Japanese occupying the Cook Inlet oil fields south of Anchorage (not as impressive as the North Slope, but not dependent in the pipeline) and garrisoning it with about a brigade -- one JGSDF battalion plus American mercenaries recruited out of Korea. But I see that as kind of about as heavy as they rollon foreign deployments, with more common stuff being a platoon or company here and there at trading posts or as ships troops, and the AK deal not being the only use of stranded ex-pat mercenaries. (which also seems like a cool potential campaign idea for PCs).