*Post*-TDM armor production.

[Tegyrius]

So, ah... where'd Argentina and Brazil get nukes to throw at each other?

- C.

[Arrissen]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

So, ah... where'd Argentina and Brazil get nukes to throw at each other?

- C.

I was wondering the same thing. Where is the info on that part of the world in the game?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

So, ah... where'd Argentina and Brazil get nukes to throw at each other?

Shhhhh! Stop using logic!

Does it matter though? Perhaps in the alternate timeline that is T2K they developed them themselves (using ex nazi scientists), or bought them from a third party? It really doesn't matter that much though. The important thing is that they are shown to have possessed and used them against each other thereby destroying the industrial capability of the region.

[Arrissen]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Shhhhh! Stop using logic!

Does it matter though? Perhaps in the alternate timeline that is T2K they developed them themselves (using ex nazi scientists), or bought them from a third party? It really doesn't matter that much though. The important thing is that they are shown to have possessed and used them against each other thereby destroying the industrial capability of the region.

Well well, evil Nazi's huh? That's just great. Right when I thought I might have found us another source of AFV's to play with...Damn.

You know Brazil has 1.5 million Japanese and Argentina 3 million Germans.
Maybe they had their own covert nuclear arms race between radical ex-pats sending eachother suitcase nukes or something?! Cos I can't see the sun kissed and generally laid back people from either of these countries nuking anyone. Ever.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Arrissen

Well well, evil Nazi's huh? That's just great. Right when I thought I might have found us another source of AFV's to play with...Damn.

You know Brazil has 1.5 million Japanese and Argentina 3 million Germans.
Maybe they had their own covert nuclear arms race between radical ex-pats sending eachother suitcase nukes or something?! Cos I can't see the sun kissed and generally laid back people from either of these countries nuking anyone. Ever.

Well I always found interesting that GDW overlooked such gems of Arms exporters such as Brazil, Argentina, Chile, South Africa, and Singapore to name a few that come to mind. Isreali arms got mention in the Middle East and some of the Europe due to the closeness of the area. I recall some of the equipment surfacing here and there, but they were largely ignored. Granted in many cases the South Americans arms would of been in many cases comparable to stuff Cat B units of the Soviets and National Guard/Reserve unit in the GDW version 1 timeline.

Yet, after the TDM the contested battle zones of Europe would be much like Balkan region and the Middle East around Isreal where any thing that was a Tank at one time no matter how long ago our inferior of the best that you have, is still used as Tank or Tank Destroyer. Same with outdated APC or inferior APC/IFV would be press into service.

Of course, in most cases after the TDM many of these countries would only export for limited time, before they like many other would keep what is being produce for local use. Maybe a decade or two once nations starting to rebuild enough where they may be looking into spending money on defense, I can see these locations becoming where to go.

Just some thoughts.

[HorseSoldier]

At some point in the Cold War I think there is solid documentation that Brazil and Argentina had nuke programs but neither got to the point of fielding a workable weapon. I assume GDW was reflecting defense community rumor/speculation from that era when they talk about Argie and Brazilian nukes.

As for Japan in the BYB, I think it is a case of whoever wrote that being out of step with the t2k v1/ 2300AD situation in Japan. (Not the only place where it varies in subtle ways from stuff in v1 as well as the big goat rodeo disaster that is BYBs written timeline . . .)

[pmulcahy11b]

I have a feeling that, after a certain point, most of post-TDM armor manufacture will be things like armored gun trucks and the steel-plated HMMWVs that were seen so often in the Iraq War.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I have a feeling that, after a certain point, most of post-TDM armor manufacture will be things like armored gun trucks and the steel-plated HMMWVs that were seen so often in the Iraq War.

Sad thing is since the war the M1 Plant in Warren, MI had been fully decommission. We are selling off our goods and not being able to replace them. Both Iraqi campaigns have give us causes to be too lax. But that is another story...

Yeah I have to agree with you it will be more like making today armor cars than any thing worthy of MBT. By 2000 even M113 armed with three M60s would cause people to have grave concern. *Shrug*

[Arrissen]

"At some point in the Cold War I think there is solid documentation that Brazil and Argentina had nuke programs but neither got to the point of fielding a workable weapon. I assume GDW was reflecting defense community rumor/speculation from that era when they talk about Argie and Brazilian nukes." - HorseSoldier

Yeah this seems to be the case. Check it out on Wikipedia - It was fairly covert too. Bit of a lazy way to write off all of South America though IMO.

[HorseSoldier]

I'd guess that the Brazilian-Argentine nuclear exchange in T2K probably amounted to anywhere from a pair of weapons to a handful exchanged tit-for-tat style.

Buenos Aires probably got nuked. Probably Porto Alegre on the Brazil side, which isn't a one-for-one trade, but it's the biggest city Argentina probably had effective means to strike. I'm picturing both sides using pretty crude weapons, possibly Manhattan programmed once their shooting war started rather than a pre-existing and super-hush stockpile. Means of delivery was probably pretty limited and yield likewise.

In a shorter version of the story -- probably not enough damage from the nukes or the ground war to take either nation seriously offline circa 2000.

That said, Brazil probably is fragmenting badly under its own weight circa 2000. I mentioned food being a big issue in Brazil -- if the government introduced some sort of program to encourage/force better self-reliance for basic food supplies in the '95-97 era before the world distribution networks just collapsed they might take the edge of that razor blade some. But agribusiness might have been raking in the profits as demand increased from the war, and gone the exact opposite direction.

Either way, you've got some serious cultural divides between agricultural north Brazil and industrialized south Brazil and the ticking timebombs of the favelas in every city where the population is barely getting by as is. If Brazil, at the national or regional level, is going to keep it together things will get real draconian real fast -- even by the standards of a nation where police death squads are considered "kind of inappropriate" and even non-extra legal police actions can involve support weapons up to grenade launcher and machine gun level without raising many eye brows.

Circa 2000 I see Brazil kind of on par with ca 2000 America, situation wise -- a couple different governments claiming legitimacy, reflecting that north-south split and probably the southern government slowly winning a war to settle things with the north. Most everything up the Amazon is just gone completely off the rails and collapsed. Depending on how you see the Arg-Bra war going, possibly a Brazilian occupation force sitting in Uruguay, or an Argentine occupation force doing the same, or maybe the two staring at each other across a no mans land somewhere in the middle of Uruguay.

Argentina is, I think, better set up for cultural cohesion and doesn't have quite the same urban mess Brazil has (though to be fair, I spent a lot of time in grad school dealing with Brazilian topics, none I can recall on Argentina, so I may just not be aware). Of course they also have a historical beef with Chile and the risk of additional security issues on that border.

(And the Falklands -- honestly, I don't see them making a play for Las Islas Malvinas during the confusion of WW3, and if they did, I think they'd be well served by catching a good spread of SLBMs or other nuclear ordnance from the UK, or even the US. Sic semper imbecillus , and no one appreciates the bratty kid who interrupts when mommy and daddy are trying to kill the neighbors.)