OT - Khadaffy's regime falling

Targan · #1 08-24-2011, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I don't believe it will help the U.S.A. out at all. It will just be another rival economically in the long run. It's kind of like when China started loosing the old communist ideas and became more western like. Good for them, bad for us. The best part is we do it to ourselves. Look at NAFTA that was really to destroy the strengh of American export and lift up foreign imports. America's ugliness of trying to make everyone like we are (or once where) is a self-destructive handout.
Now with what the new government does or is like over there we will have to see. But in no way was blowing up Khadaffy's regime a smart move unless your one of the guys looking to set up business there.

Say what? The USA has been the world's greatest proponent of free trade and the global economy. How do you think the US got to be so prosperous? But now that the US is the richest nation in the world you think it's a bad idea for other nations to become prosperous too because they will be competitors to the US? And its not like a tiny population base like Libya is ever going to be a serious economic rival to America.

The US (not to mention the rest of the world) needs oil doesn't it? You don't think it would be good for the US if Libya had a democratic government willing to sell its oil to western countries such as the US?

What about Africa (and particularly North Africa) being a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism? Isn't the US locked in a world wide war against terrorism (much of it perpetrated by Islamic extremists)? Therefore, would it not be in America's best interests for more African nations to become strong, western-style democracies? I think it is way too early to assume that the new Libya is going to turn into a fundamentalist Islamic state. I think that outcome will be more likely if the US and the western world turns its back on Libya's new government.

Or am I just rising to the bait here and you are looking for this sort of reaction to your comments?

Webstral · #2 08-24-2011, 01:47 AM

There is a mood of pessimism in the US these days that Waiting is giving a voice. Unfortunately, as a people we Americans tend towards very black-and-white viewpoints. We struggle with nuance. In the 1960's, the Soviets were the Devil incarnate and bent on our destruction. Back in the 1980's, the world was coming to an end because Japan was about to eclipse us. Now it's China. We like extreme interpretations for the same reason that we love our fiery sermons: they get the blood pumping.

The idea that a country with a population the size of Massachusetts is going to somehow outcompete the United States is a bit alarmist, to say the least. We might as well say that the US has suffered from the recovery of the Netherlands after WW2. After all, the Netherlands has larger population, a better-educated population, and a more-established industrial base.

Of course, there is the possibility that a new Libya would want to take over for the Cayman Islands as a tax haven. That problem, though, is an internal problem for the US. Reform of the IRS is what's needed to deal with the Cayman Islands, not a totalitarian regime in the Cayman Islands.

The real danger, as always, is that a nation with a distinctly non-Western culture will learn to combine Western economic, industrial, and scientific tools with its own culture and produce something that causes us to question our assumptions about how things go. Oh, yes--that's been happening, hasn't it? It just hasn't happend with a Muslim country yet--not really. The Persian Gulf States have plenty of oil wealth and all the trappings of Western society, but representative government has eluded them thus far. One never knows, though. What if a Westernized Muslim state emerged that learned to make peace between Islam and modernism? This is not hard to imagine when one converses with moderate Muslims or reads their work. A moderate Muslim regime with oil wealth is exactly who we need on our side and exactly what we fear because we don't have ready-made answers for dealing with them. I hope Libya manages to make something better of itself than just another state that kicked out the old bums only to fall under the control of a crowd of new bums.

95th Rifleman · #3 08-24-2011, 02:54 AM

The "Arab spring" had me laughing so loud I fell off my chair. We selectively pick and choose democracies and dictatorships.

Look at Saddam, when he was happily gassing Iranians he Americans backed him up and kept the UN from sticking their nose in. Forward 20 years and he's suddenly the next Hitler.

Gaddafi goes postal on his own people and the RAF and French Air Force go riding to te rescue. That Syrian nutjob does the same thing and all we do is wag our fingers and express our displeasure.

Egypt was a big ally of America under their dictatorship, now they have gotten rid of the guy they are kicking off with Israel again.

The people of Bahrain rise up, the Saudis next door send their tanks in and put them down. Now we have doctors who helped the protestors up on jumped up charges while the west looks the other way.

I am sick and bloody tired of western politicians talking about human rights, they don't give a damn about human rights.

waiting4something · #4 08-24-2011, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

The "Arab spring" had me laughing so loud I fell off my chair. We selectively pick and choose democracies and dictatorships.

Look at Saddam, when he was happily gassing Iranians he Americans backed him up and kept the UN from sticking their nose in. Forward 20 years and he's suddenly the next Hitler.

Gaddafi goes postal on his own people and the RAF and French Air Force go riding to te rescue. That Syrian nutjob does the same thing and all we do is wag our fingers and express our displeasure.

Egypt was a big ally of America under their dictatorship, now they have gotten rid of the guy they are kicking off with Israel again.

The people of Bahrain rise up, the Saudis next door send their tanks in and put them down. Now we have doctors who helped the protestors up on jumped up charges while the west looks the other way.

I am sick and bloody tired of western politicians talking about human rights, they don't give a damn about human rights.

This seems to be the case, we only care about shit if it can make us money. It's laughable. It reminds me of the holiday season, you know the one time a year it's popular and fun to give a damn about the needy.

This has nothing to do with helping the poor oppressed people. You want to go help people look within your on borders before you go on military adventure in a foreign country. Oh yeah, but there no money in that....... what's the point.

headquarters · #5 08-24-2011, 08:24 AM

Well, they have enjoyed a relatively better standard of living and education in Libya than the average in North Africa the last decades - so hopefully the people there will see the value of a moderate stance and try to come into the democratic fold so to speak. ( Its all up in the air now though).

As for the slight

pessimistic subcurrent I detect in some posters here - yes you are right. On the other hand no one action in war led by democratic nations had a sole purpose. There have always been those in it for the money, those that want to make aname for themselves and those who have idealistic motives- the list goes on of course. I for one supported the bombing campaign as Gaddafi moved on Benghazi - as I supported the popular uprisings in the middle east in general. What a great opportunity for the world to improve relations if several major nations in the middle east actually become secular, functioning democracies.

Hope lives on guys.

kato13 · #6 08-24-2011, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webstral

The real danger, as always, is that a nation with a distinctly non-Western culture will learn to combine Western economic, industrial, and scientific tools with its own culture and produce something that causes us to question our assumptions about how things go. Oh, yes--that's been happening, hasn't it? It just hasn't happend with a Muslim country yet--not really. The Persian Gulf States have plenty of oil wealth and all the trappings of Western society, but representative government has eluded them thus far. One never knows, though. What if a Westernized Muslim state emerged that learned to make peace between Islam and modernism? This is not hard to imagine when one converses with moderate Muslims or reads their work.

I personally think that in almost all cases when Islam is dominate in a nation it stifles innovation. That is going to hold those nations back and I am not sure that the works of moderate Muslims can undo what seems to me to be a deep cultural resistance to moving forward.

If you look at US Patents by country
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/...af/cst_utl.htm
you will see that most European and Asian countries (including Denmark and Singapore) have had more patents granted than all Muslim nations combined. Even Lichtenstein (with a GDP about 1.5% as large) holds it own with Saudi Arabia .

Some might say that hostility to the US is suppressing these numbers, but even longtime ally Turkey's comes very close to the bottom of the list as far as European democracies go. Generally it is out shined by the former Eastern Bloc countries who have a shorter history of both democracy and capitalism. In trying to see if there might be geographical (as opposed to cultural) reasons for such low numbers, I saw that neighbor Greece has more than double the patents granted as Turkey, with about 1/6th of the population.

Perhaps one day Islam will again become more supportive of an innovative process, but at the moment it looks like they have a long way to go.

Edit:
Added "again" to the last sentence to reflect that Islamic culture was once the one of the greatest motivators for innovation.

headquarters · #7 08-24-2011, 12:18 PM

Turkey is a secular country btw.

As far as I know there are some 10 million moslem citizens in the US - it doesnt seem that they are slowing the US down.

Any religion that gets the upper hand in the running of a country will stifle other processes in that country - not just Islam.

Historically speaking the Moslem world - particularily the Ottoman Empire - has had a longer run as an advanced and innovative society than the modern western world. ( Yeah - I know that was before the advent of modern westernized democracy and industrial capitalism).
Anyhow - Libya has a relatively small population and substantial oil reserves. It is possible that they might try to institute a system of representative rule and fair distribution of the nations wealth. Given the vast arsenal in the hands of the people thereit would seem suicidal not to try and get everyone aboard..than again - there are always those hardliner faithful of both Allah and Muammar Gaddafi that will not tolerate a western style democray. ( Muammar Gaddafi was not an Islamist btw - he actually supressed radical Islam harshly in years before.)

kato13 · #8 08-24-2011, 12:48 PM

I know Turkey is "Secular" but it is 99.8% Muslim.

I fully understand the importance of Islams historical push for advancement of technology. Islam saved an incredible amount of information and was responsible for most of technological innovation that occurred during Europe's dark ages. What I am speaking of is my perception of stagnation now.

I know many can consider the patent argument flawed (for socio economic reasons), but the numbers are so jarring in comparison that I do see it as being indicative of a stagnation.

Do I know Muslims who are incredibly innovative, yes absolutely. For the most part that is why they or their parents came to America, and America is better off for having them. That could be another factor is the Patent disparity is that those who might be motivated to innovate or change things either leave or are chased out. I do not judge an individual by any single trait, but I do accept that perhaps a dominant culture can effect how a population may be motivated and what they, as a population, ultimately might accomplish.

Edit:
An hour later that "Muslims aren't slowing down America" line is still bugging me.

I presented facts and my opinion about the effects of a dominant culture and it is assumed that I feel every extended member of that culture (even outside the realm of dominance) is somehow a drain. That was a real stretch in my opinion.

To say that German culture strives for more engineering innovation than lets say the Polynesians, is in my mind is the truth. Yes I am taking two cultures and ranking them on a particular factor. Do I feel the greatest engineer the world has ever seen could come out of Polynesia, yes, but the German system is much more likely to recognize and develop talents so in general they will produce more engineers. The best of anything can come from any culture, but the averages will be different depending on what is the focus of the culture.

headquarters · #9 08-24-2011, 03:12 PM

I didnt mean to come across as seeing you as a bigot.

I do disagree on the analyzis of the facts you present though. Many factors should be examined such as economic development and resources etc.

As for a country being secular - I meant that they have a governing system based on political opinion rather than religious faith. The US is a secular country - yet there are a great many US citizens who have religious faith.

Also I would like to point out that Islam is a religion and not a culture. Moslems are as diverse as most other people that adhere to other world religions - spanning from Indonesia to Norway.

As for percieved stagnation in moslem countries today - I agree that the center of development is not in those countries today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kato13

I know Turkey is "Secular" but it is 99.8% Muslim.

I fully understand the importance of Islams historical push for advancement of technology. Islam saved an incredible amount of information and was responsible for most of technological innovation that occurred during Europe's dark ages. What I am speaking of is my perception of stagnation now.

I know many can consider the patent argument flawed (for socio economic reasons), but the numbers are so jarring in comparison that I do see it as being indicative of a stagnation.

Do I know Muslims who are incredibly innovative, yes absolutely. For the most part that is why they or their parents came to America, and America is better off for having them. That could be another factor is the Patent disparity is that those who might be motivated to innovate or change things either leave or are chased out. I do not judge an individual by any single trait, but I do accept that perhaps a dominant culture can effect how a population may be motivated and what they, as a population, ultimately might accomplish.

Edit:
An hour later that "Muslims aren't slowing down America" line is still bugging me.

I presented facts and my opinion about the effects of a dominant culture and it is assumed that I feel every extended member of that culture (even outside the realm of dominance) is somehow a drain. That was a real stretch in my opinion.

To say that German culture strives for more engineering innovation than lets say the Polynesians, is in my mind is the truth. Yes I am taking two cultures and ranking them on a particular factor. Do I feel the greatest engineer the world has ever seen could come out of Polynesia, yes, but the German system is much more likely to recognize and develop talents so in general they will produce more engineers. The best of anything can come from any culture, but the averages will be different depending on what is the focus of the culture.

kato13 · #10 08-24-2011, 03:57 PM

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