OT - Khadaffy's regime falling

[kato13]

I know Turkey is "Secular" but it is 99.8% Muslim.

I fully understand the importance of Islams historical push for advancement of technology. Islam saved an incredible amount of information and was responsible for most of technological innovation that occurred during Europe's dark ages. What I am speaking of is my perception of stagnation now.

I know many can consider the patent argument flawed (for socio economic reasons), but the numbers are so jarring in comparison that I do see it as being indicative of a stagnation.

Do I know Muslims who are incredibly innovative, yes absolutely. For the most part that is why they or their parents came to America, and America is better off for having them. That could be another factor is the Patent disparity is that those who might be motivated to innovate or change things either leave or are chased out. I do not judge an individual by any single trait, but I do accept that perhaps a dominant culture can effect how a population may be motivated and what they, as a population, ultimately might accomplish.

Edit:
An hour later that "Muslims aren't slowing down America" line is still bugging me.

I presented facts and my opinion about the effects of a dominant culture and it is assumed that I feel every extended member of that culture (even outside the realm of dominance) is somehow a drain. That was a real stretch in my opinion.

To say that German culture strives for more engineering innovation than lets say the Polynesians, is in my mind is the truth. Yes I am taking two cultures and ranking them on a particular factor. Do I feel the greatest engineer the world has ever seen could come out of Polynesia, yes, but the German system is much more likely to recognize and develop talents so in general they will produce more engineers. The best of anything can come from any culture, but the averages will be different depending on what is the focus of the culture.

[headquarters]

I didnt mean to come across as seeing you as a bigot.

I do disagree on the analyzis of the facts you present though. Many factors should be examined such as economic development and resources etc.

As for a country being secular - I meant that they have a governing system based on political opinion rather than religious faith. The US is a secular country - yet there are a great many US citizens who have religious faith.

Also I would like to point out that Islam is a religion and not a culture. Moslems are as diverse as most other people that adhere to other world religions - spanning from Indonesia to Norway.

As for percieved stagnation in moslem countries today - I agree that the center of development is not in those countries today.

Originally Posted by kato13

I know Turkey is "Secular" but it is 99.8% Muslim.

I fully understand the importance of Islams historical push for advancement of technology. Islam saved an incredible amount of information and was responsible for most of technological innovation that occurred during Europe's dark ages. What I am speaking of is my perception of stagnation now.

I know many can consider the patent argument flawed (for socio economic reasons), but the numbers are so jarring in comparison that I do see it as being indicative of a stagnation.

Do I know Muslims who are incredibly innovative, yes absolutely. For the most part that is why they or their parents came to America, and America is better off for having them. That could be another factor is the Patent disparity is that those who might be motivated to innovate or change things either leave or are chased out. I do not judge an individual by any single trait, but I do accept that perhaps a dominant culture can effect how a population may be motivated and what they, as a population, ultimately might accomplish.

Edit:
An hour later that "Muslims aren't slowing down America" line is still bugging me.

I presented facts and my opinion about the effects of a dominant culture and it is assumed that I feel every extended member of that culture (even outside the realm of dominance) is somehow a drain. That was a real stretch in my opinion.

To say that German culture strives for more engineering innovation than lets say the Polynesians, is in my mind is the truth. Yes I am taking two cultures and ranking them on a particular factor. Do I feel the greatest engineer the world has ever seen could come out of Polynesia, yes, but the German system is much more likely to recognize and develop talents so in general they will produce more engineers. The best of anything can come from any culture, but the averages will be different depending on what is the focus of the culture.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I do disagree on the analyzis of the facts you present though. Many factors should be examined such as economic development and resources etc.

I will do a GPD per capita analysis compared to patents. Africa's very poor performance is one factor that support your conclusion of a economic dependance, but I think on average the Islamic nations will fall more into the lines of South America in term of socioeconomic development. Compared to SA, my cursory read is that the Islamic nations are well behind.

Originally Posted by headquarters

Also I would like to point out that Islam is a religion and not a culture.

Again I spoke of countries where Islam is dominant. I know polls can be flawed, but I have seen several polls where, in Islamic nations a majority of the respondents wanted greater religious influence in their politics and their lives (or even greater adoption of Sharia law). To me that equates with culture (traditions reinforced by the group), but we may be looking at different definitions of the word.

The beliefs of Muslims in Muslim dominated nations seems radically different from what I have been exposed here in the US. I live near the highest concentration of Pakistani immigrants in the country. One thing that i find so ironic is the conflict between India and Pakistan evaporates once they hit our shores. Their cultures are so similar (and so different from American culture) that they band together in shopping, restaurants and recreation. For example they are the only two immigrant cultures I have seen play cricket (often against each other).

Originally Posted by headquarters

As for percieved stagnation in moslem countries today - I agree that the center of development is not in those countries today.

Agreed.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by kato13

The beliefs of Muslims in Muslim dominated nations seems radically different from what I have been exposed here in the US. I live near the highest concentration of Pakistani immigrants in the country. One thing that i find so ironic is the conflict between India and Pakistan evaporates once they hit our shores. Their cultures are so similar (and so different from American culture) that they band together in shopping, restaurants and recreation. For example they are the only two immigrant cultures I have seen play cricket (often against each other).

This will be equally true for every community living in a foreign environment. I have seen the same being done by Israeli, Palestinians and Christian Lebanese residing in France where they are often best friends. It has nothing to do with the common point in their culture but simply with the fact that they perceive (follow me I'm talking of a perception not of a reality) the country in which they arrive as being aggresive toward them. In a sense they are right but this aggression comes equally from their own attitude that from anything else.

I didn't do anything else when I arrived in US and it is only after six month that I grew tired of sticking with the french community and took some distance. I was not sitcking with them because we had so much in common (several of them were such jerks that under normal circomstances, I would have not even talk to them) but because I was distrustful of US citizens. Being often threaten by decerabrated Christian US youngsters doesn't help. Then, after a while, you get out or leave. When I explain to most of my friend that I'm writing on this board they ask me how many times I get screamed at, LOL.

Patent is the least relevant element you can use to qualify a society. It is not relevant because we are now putting patent on everything and because US patent are not always held by US citizens. Moreover, holding a patent doesn't solely mean that you are inventive and creative, it means that you put money in getting them. It, however, can signify three things: that your country is perceived as rich (therefore, people acquire your patents in order to make money), that your country is stable (It is much harder to invent anything when you spend most of your day running for your life) and that it grants you a real freedom (You don't claim to have invented anything when that can throw you into jail). All of this has nothing to do with religion but only with politics. By the way, it is interesting to note that for the last 50 years, most of the countries you are talking about have been held by secular, socialist dictators while all have been dominated by a strong military (and that includes Turkey). Would military domination be a limitation to civil development?

Here are the 10 top current individual patent holders in US (2005):
1) Shunpei Yamazaki, Japan, 1,432 patents (semiconductors).
2) Donald Weder, Highland, III., 1,322 (flowers and no, I'm not kidding).
3) Kia Silverbrook, Sydney, 801 (in 1997, no Australian was present in the top 100).
4) George Spector, New York, 723 (Among his patent, a computerized mousetrap).
5) Gurtej Sandhu, Boise, 576.
6) Warren Farnworth, Boise, 547.
7) Salman Akram, Boise, 527.
All three work for Micron Technology, Idaho. To note, the patent attorneys' offices are right in the labs.
8) Mark Gardner, Cedar Creek, Texas, 512 (microprocessors).
9) Heinze Focke, Verden, Germany, 508 (packaging).
10) Joseph Straeter, Highland, III., 477 (flower... again and most of its patents are shared by Weder for whom he works).

source: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columni...3-patent_x.htm

By 2011, the first place in US patent holder has been taken by Kia Silverbrook (4097). He is also holding the first place in International Patent (9042). Funny to see that the current most prolific inventor is coming from a country which is among the most stable you can find. That must makes Australia being far superior to the rest of the world.

Also, Thomas Edison long held a record of 1093 patents. Does it means that he had been the most important genious of all time? Then does the fact that Donald Weder currently holds 229 more patents (on flowers) means that Weder did more to society progress than Edison?

The most prolific current woman inventor in US only holds 126 patents. Do I have to conclude from it that US women are so much inferior or simply that US is almost as much a backward country when it comes to women than Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan? Of course my answer to both question is no! It, however, illustrate the danger of jumping to quick conclusion using a single element.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

That must makes Australia being far superior to the rest of the world.

No arguement from here about that!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

That must makes Australia being far superior to the rest of the world.

I thought everybody knew that!

[Panther Al]

Huh, but while knowing an Aussie holds top place and giving all due credit, still think you west islanders still can't quite match the greatness that is NZed.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Huh, but while knowing an Aussie holds top place and giving all due credit, still think you west islanders still can't quite match the greatness that is NZed.

I hold dual Australian-New Zealand citizenship. 'Nuff said

[Webstral]

Patents are a data point. Like every other data point, a data point on patents has its place in making assessments.

We should be wary of trying to draw connections between the fact that Muslims in Muslim countries want to have religion play a larger role in the affairs of the nation and a low number of patents. Just as a man and a woman standing next to each other are not necessarily lovers or family members, two facts next to each other do not necessarily have a cause-and-effect relationship or even similar causes.

At the risk of generalizing, many moderate Muslims who want to see religion play a larger role in the running of the nation are reacting to Western popular culture. Like many Americans of any faith, moderate Muslims often are disenchanted by the values of American pop culture: loveless sexuality, insatiable consumerism, rampant and irresponsible individualism, violence, disrespect for elders and family, and predatory capitalism. Heck, I don't want my children taking on those values. Moderate Muslims are well aware that modern science and technology provide enormous benefits to society. They just aren't certain that they want to become Beverly Hills 90210. The best defense against pop culture values is a solid grounding in Islam, from the standpoint of many of the world's Muslims.

Of course, one can always find the Wahabbists in the equation. For decades, Saudi Arabia's oil wealth and marriage of necessity to Wahabbism has resulted in the dissemination of extremist interpretations of Islam throughout the Muslim world. Though a minority, Wahabbists are loud and pushy. Like any extremist group, they give the impression that they are much greater in number than they are. So it entirely possible to find voices throughout the Muslim world for the establishment of states based on shari'a.

It's a shame Saddam Hussein invaded Iran before the Iranian Revolution sorted itself out. When Hussein came in, Khomeini & Co. were not in a strong position. The pro-Western Iranians enjoyed wide support. Just how things would have gone in another year is open to interpretation. But the Iraqi invasion allowed Khomeini & Co. to rally the Iranian populace and silence any opposition. A Western-oriented Iran sans the shah might have given the rest of the Muslim world a middle road to travel. Ah, history! So much turns on the decisions of dictators.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Patents are a data point. Like every other data point, a data point on patents has its place in making assessments.

Entirely agree

[Panther Al]

I always felt that what happened in Iran is one of the biggest missed opertonities in recent memory. Until Saddam invaded it was looking more and more that a reasonable moderate and slightly pro-western government was going to come out of the chaos that was Iran, but to give the devil his due, the play the religious hardliners made when Iraq came over the border was a smart play- put them in the public eye as those that was willing to defend Iran while the reasonable (by western standards) just wanted to talk about things.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Also I would like to point out that Islam is a religion and not a culture. Moslems are as diverse as most other people that adhere to other world religions - spanning from Indonesia to Norway.

That point can be argued. In some countries Islam IS a culture and totaly integrated into the cultural identity of that nation just as Judaism in Israel and Catholicism in Rome.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

That point can be argued. In some countries Islam IS a culture and totaly integrated into the cultural identity of that nation just as Judaism in Israel and Catholicism in Rome.

I agree to that but it is in no way a monolitic culture.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I agree to that but it is in no way a monolitic culture.

Very true. Arabic islam is very different to Chinese islam or bosnian islam.

[Targan]

And Shiites have some pretty major theological differences with Sunnis. Then there are your radical jihadist Wahabis, and they all consider Sufis to be freaky heretics... etc, etc.

[simonmark6]

I was invited to a talk by an Iman by some of my pupils and discovered that they were from a small Pakistani sect that actually believed that the Messiah had come and had been born to their sect about a hundred years ago. Other followers of Islam in the audience were as amazed as I was, there seem to be lots of little sects around, maybe not as many as there are Christian sects, but enough to stop it being monolithic.