USS Saratoga Fate

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

My thoughts on the Saratoga being where it is were based on the idea that she'd been working the southwest Atlantic, near Florida, ...

For my campaign purposes, the remaining crew did an able job of damage control, and there is a contingent of Marines and a skeleton crew of sailors on-board to maintain the reactor.

If you want the reactor to be working, best change the name of the ship: CV-60 is an oil-burner.
USS Enterprise, Nimitz, Eisenhower, Vinson, T.Roosevelt, Washington, Stennis were the CVNs of 1995. R. Reagan wasn't even laid down until 1998.

Interesting: IRL USS Harry S Truman was launched 7 Sep 96, commissioned 25 July 98. In a T2k world, I surely think the Navy was able to speed her commissioning and deployment? She's under construction at Newport News, an obvious target for a Soviet nuke. Even if not finished, the reactor would be a great thing to have for rebuilding around Norfolk!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

If you want the reactor to be working, best change the name of the ship: CV-60 is an oil-burner.
USS Enterprise, Nimitz, Eisenhower, Vinson, T.Roosevelt, Washington, Stennis were the CVNs of 1995. R. Reagan wasn't even laid down until 1998.

DOH. D TO THE OH. I'll...fix that...

Interesting: IRL USS Harry S Truman was launched 7 Sep 96, commissioned 25 July 98. In a T2k world, I surely think the Navy was able to speed her commissioning and deployment? She's under construction at Newport News, an obvious target for a Soviet nuke. Even if not finished, the reactor would be a great thing to have for rebuilding around Norfolk!

It now makes Norfolk a lot more sensible as the final destination of TF34: assuming you're going with a canon "Going Home", the first place the soldiers see is a town with electricity (well, some, at least in the port facilities) and light industry and maybe (just maybe) they think "Hey, things are getting better" instead of "Hey, we're being thrown off the ship into a postapocalyptic wasteland, let's mutiny right now and go Mad Max on Norfolk."

[Legbreaker]

A mobile, nuclear powered carrier, even without planes isn't possible.
With the ability to carry thousands of troops and tens of thousands of tonnes of cargo, it's a massive game changer and Omega would have been a completely different kettle of fish. The US wouldn't need the German fuel to get their troops home - just half a dozen Atlantic crossings and a couple of months would have done the job. The ship could transport a full Brigade or more all around the US coastline, reinforcing areas under pressure from the Mexicans. Russians and NA. The Korean units could be brought home, fuel could be transported from the middle east and elsewhere and essentially, the US would rule the waves.

[Olefin]

No Legbreaker its not a game changer - its a ship used as a transport but one they wont risk too much because basically it needs escorts or its dead meat - along with everyone on it

And Omega was not a gradual evac for a darn good reason - no one wanted to take their turn and believe that MilGov would be back - once those ships showed everyone wanted on

So could they have used a carrier like that for an operation like that or to get the 6000 men to the Middle East - yes for sure

plus remember even if you get avgas and planes - at best you have one or two nuke carriers left in commission - and no one is ruling the waves of an entire planet with one or two nuke carriers with very limited planes and avgas and weapons

even as cargo ships - yes they can keep trade going - but they are still essentially one or two ships - and its a long long way from the East Coast to Kenya or the Middle East or Korea without the two canals in operation

so you get a few trips per year at most out of them - and depending on what ship it is they may not have that much fuel left on board for their reactors

So does it change Omega or the RDF reinforcement - no it doesnt - and in the end it may explain why there was plenty of room or where the US got the fuel to go all the way to the Middle East with those 6000 men - who for all we know came from Norfolk after Omega arrived (nothing in the RDF says they came straight to the RDF from Europe -i.e. they could have come via Norfolk)

the canon still works and in fact it works better and closes several holes - especially if the carrier isnt part of TF 34, instead its a different TF going to the RDF with the 6000 men

[Olefin]

On and Leg - with the forces that are canon the US is still most likely going to rule the waves - especially if the Texas module results in the players ending up controlling that oil rig and the US getting a ton of av gas - with that in hand you can kiss Mexican and Soviet control of a lot of Texas goodbye - and then the US will have plenty of oil for its fleet

three cruisers, a dozen destroyers and frigates and a carrier and an SSN isnt bad to start with - and I doubt anyone with the possible exception of France could match that anytime soon

and the timing for that is after the events of Troubled Waters (i.e. it will take a few months to get enough oil pumped to really have avgas to attack) - and dont quote Howling Wildnerness or Kidnapped - frankly those modules should be relegated to the status of Bobby is taking a shower on Dallas for a year fantasies of a New American leader and replaced with better modules or scenarios

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

and the timing for that is after the events of Troubled Waters (i.e. it will take a few months to get enough oil pumped to really have avgas to attack) - and dont quote Howling Wilderness or Kidnapped - frankly those modules should be relegated to the status of Bobby is taking a shower on Dallas for a year fantasies of a New American leader and replaced with better modules or scenarios

Look, if you want to throw Howling Wilderness and Kidnapped out the window for any campaigns you're running that's fine for you but you're talking like that's a given for any right-thinking T2Ker and I think that's a bit unreasonable. I'd be more likely to ignore the Eastern European Sourcebook or City of Angels (and I won't be ignoring them either). You clearly have lots of experience in RPG forum discussions and you seem to be a good debater but its not very effective to mix and match the way you have in the post I've quoted above. First you're arguing pretty effectively for modifying canon info then in the next sentence you're trying to reinforce your position by saying that two entire modules shouldn't even be factored into the discussion (and saying it in a tone that suggests it should be obvious to everyone).

"... replaced with better modules or scenarios"? Maybe GDW could've done a better job with Howling Wilderness and Kidnapped and a bunch of other modules and sourcebooks but they didn't. Those are what we have. If you're going to argue your points on those angles perhaps you should re-write Howling Wilderness, offer it for perusal, garner some support for it in the T2K community and then maybe you can act like it's a fait accompli.

[Olefin]

Actually those two modules, as I have stated, is what killed the campaign we were playing in - as I have said before our GM saw Kidnapped as nothing but a party killer and Howling Wildnerness as a "lets kill the US off and turn the game into Mad Max" - and as a result the people playing the game lost interest in continuing on in that kind of environment - and you can see that they wrote themselves into a dead end at GDW as well - one reason I think they returned to Europe was that those two modules killed off the American campaign

so lets go back to Europe where at least civilization has a chance to survive

oh and the Eastern European sourcebook isnt in the original version of the game so we didnt even use it - and City of Angels wasnt bad if you gave the Mexicans actual equipment they would use instead of Sov equipment - basically our GM was going to throw out what they had and substitute equipment from the Texas module - which was a lot of fun and made sense

and its just not me who considers those two modules as being campaign killers - have talked to others who after they saw those modules basically either rebooted their campaigns back in Europe and just ignored Omega to stay in Europe, or who choose to go to the RDF and just circular filed their US modules - all comes down to what you want to play - and if I wanted to play Aftermath I would have played that game - and thats what Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped did

as for factoring in the discussion - the Texas module, if the players win, gives the US the oil they need to finally beat the Mexicans - but that doesnt matter since the whole US basically collapses and dies -

you come home and fight in Texas, beat the New Americans in the Ozarks, help restore order in NY, get the last nuke sub back - and all of it is for nothing once GDW decided to kill off the US - so yes those who loved the game have the right to complain when the creators decide to chuck it all down the can and turn it into Mad Max and have basically the whole US Army fall apart and disappear. Now that doesnt mean everyone has to do that - but reading the board (and I have read most of the posts since I found it) the vast majority agree with that opinion of those two modules

its the same opinion that Chico and the DC Working Group came to in their very entertaining posts - but again its an opinion

however I stand by what I said that the idea of the destroyed US fleet with almost nothing left doesnt stand the test of what GDW put in the canon - there is more than enough left to still be probably a match for the French or a close second