T2K in space

[RN7]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

IMHO, a lot of the anti-satellite work could have been done with the use of EMP in space. A few large mega-ton range weapons detonated at 120-150 miles would have fried a lot of the existing satellites. IF you use V1.0, with the continuing cold war, the US had the Titan ICBM's with 5+ mega-ton warheads. The USSR had the SS-18 with 25 mega-ton. One or two of these would have created havoc.

Of course, this use would have been a MAD type of response. I do not know if these weapons would have been released with the (relatively) small exchanges of v1.0 or v2.2. One thing both the US and the USSR were trying to do was prevent the all out exchange of weapons. Either side seeing an ICBM launching would have been TERRIFIED. And determined to get what ever they could of the rest of the weapons out of their silos.

Just a thought.

My $0.02

Mike

I think the problem with nukes into orbit would be the Outer Space Treaty signed by the USA, USSR and the UK in 1967, and later signed by all other nuclear armed states such as China, France, India, Israel and Pakistan, as most of the rest of the world as well.

The Outer Space Treaty bars states party to the treaty from placing nuclear weapons of any kind or any other weapons of mass destruction in Earth orbit, installing them on the Moon or any other celestial body, or to otherwise station them in outer space. It expressly prohibits the use of nuclear weapons for testing weapons of any kind, conducting military manoevers, or establishing military installations.

[Canadian Army]

The US Space Shuttle programme produced the Columbia (Destroyed in 2003), Challenger (Destroyed in 1986), Discovery, Atlantis and Endeavour, as well as the never flown Enterprise. I've always been partial to the USAF taking control of the Enterprise and rebuilding it for military flights into orbit.

The Enterprise (OV-101) was constructed without engines or a functional heat shield, and was therefore not capable of spaceflight. Originally, Enterprise had been intended to be refitted for orbital flight, however, during the construction of Columbia (OV-102), details of the final design changed. Refitting Enterprise for spaceflight would have involved dismantling the orbiter and returning the sections to subcontractors across the country. As this was an expensive proposition, it was determined to be less costly to build the Challenger (OV-099). Similarly, Enterprise was considered for refit to replace Challenger after the latter was destroyed, but Endeavour (OV-105) was built from structural spare parts that had been ordered by NASA as part of the construction contracts for Discovery (OV-103) and Atlantis (OV‑104).

The rival Soviet Space Shuttle produced the Buran which was flown unmanned in 1988. If the USSR hadn't broken up I'm sure the Soviets would have used it for manned flights, and the Ptichka was over 95% complete when the Soviet shuttle programme was cancelled. The Soviets/Russians maintained a rocket launched manned spacecraft programme throughout the period but who knows what might have been? The US DoD and NASA were working on a number of Space Shuttle replacements at the time and the European Space Agency (France) was also tinkering with the Hermes Spaceplane project, and the British were (and still are) working on air-breathing spaceplanes.

I agree the Soviet shuttle program would not have been cancelled and US DoD and NASA were working on a number of Space Shuttle replacements, and the European Space Agency could build the Hermes Spaceplane. But who would fly them? Most pilot astronauts come from military background, which means as soon as the war starts, the military is not going to release any pilots for astronaut training and some point they are going recall all military personnel serving as astronauts. What you would see is switch to unmanned rockets or the Shuttle-C (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle-C)

Someone brought up the USAF ASM-135 ASAT programme a few years ago stating that there was a real possibility it may have continued after its official cancellation as a Black Project.

You would see Anti-satellite weapons, most missles used during the Twilight War. Remember GPS and GLONASS use a constellation of 24 satellites and numerous military reconnaissance, weather, and communications are prime targets.

Also here is a link to The ASM-135 ASAT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASM-135_ASAT

Here is a list of US Unmanned Rockets and Military Launch in use during Twilight.

US Rockets:

Delta II
Atlas I
Atlas II
Taurus
Pegasus
Titan II (deactivated Titan II ICBM)
Titan IV

US Military Launch Bases:

Vandenberg Air Force Base

Space Launch Complex 1
Space Launch Complex 2
Space Launch Complex 3
Space Launch Complex 6
Space Launch Complex 8
Space Launch Complex 10

Cape Canaveral Air Force Station

Space Launch Complex 40
Space Launch Complex 41
Space Launch Complex 37

[RN7]

[QUOTE=Canadian Army;56353]The Enterprise (OV-101) was constructed without engines or a functional heat shield, and was therefore not capable of spaceflight. Originally, Enterprise had been intended to be refitted for orbital flight, however, during the construction of Columbia (OV-102), details of the final design changed. Refitting Enterprise for spaceflight would have involved dismantling the orbiter and returning the sections to subcontractors across the country. As this was an expensive proposition, it was determined to be less costly to build the Challenger (OV-099). Similarly, Enterprise was considered for refit to replace Challenger after the latter was destroyed, but Endeavour (OV-105) was built from structural spare parts that had been ordered by NASA as part of the construction contracts for Discovery (OV-103) and Atlantis (OV‑104).

Which is why I would be partial to the USAF taking control of the Enterprise and rebuilding it for military flights into orbit.


I agree the Soviet shuttle program would not have been cancelled and US DoD and NASA were working on a number of Space Shuttle replacements, and the European Space Agency could build the Hermes Spaceplane. But who would fly them? Most pilot astronauts come from military background, which means as soon as the war starts, the military is not going to release any pilots for astronaut training and some point they are going recall all military personnel serving as astronauts. What you would see is switch to unmanned rockets or the Shuttle-C (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle-C)

There is less distinction in the Soviet space programme between military and civilian (if any) than in the American space programme. In wartime NASA's funding and activity would be curtailed if not stopped all together, and the shuttle programme could very well be placed under USAF control for the duration.

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by RN7

I think the problem with nukes into orbit would be the Outer Space Treaty signed by the USA, USSR and the UK in 1967, and later signed by all other nuclear armed states such as China, France, India, Israel and Pakistan, as most of the rest of the world as well.

The Outer Space Treaty bars states party to the treaty from placing nuclear weapons of any kind or any other weapons of mass destruction in Earth orbit, installing them on the Moon or any other celestial body, or to otherwise station them in outer space. It expressly prohibits the use of nuclear weapons for testing weapons of any kind, conducting military manoevers, or establishing military installations.

I agree that the Outer Space Treaty was in place. However the USSR had starting chucking nukes at China, then elsewhere as T2K unfolded. All I am suggesting is that the ICBM's listed above would not have gone into orbit, just high enough to detonate and wipe the sky clean. As I also suggested, this is a MAD type of scenario. ..(I.E. Kill them all, let God sort them out...)

My $0.02

Mike

[RN7]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

I agree that the Outer Space Treaty was in place. However the USSR had starting chucking nukes at China, then elsewhere as T2K unfolded. All I am suggesting is that the ICBM's listed above would not have gone into orbit, just high enough to detonate and wipe the sky clean. As I also suggested, this is a MAD type of scenario. ..(I.E. Kill them all, let God sort them out...)

My $0.02

Mike

If its gets to that stage then the ground control stations and infrastructure would likely by nuked as well. The Sov's used tactical nukes on the Chinese in Asia long before they used them against the Americans.

[dylan]

Don't forget Polyus...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyus_%28spacecraft%29

[bobcat]

Originally Posted by dylan

Don't forget Polyus...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyus_%28spacecraft%29

although if the soviets wanted to ensure polyus wasn't seen as a violation of the treaty they could have claimed it was as a preventative measure against kessler syndrome as by that point there was enough orbital debris for the aeronautics community to consider it as a potential threat. and yes i keep mentioning kessler syndrome for a reason.

kessler syndrome

this can destroy the majority of existing space platforms and even prevent future launches for generations. its a safe assumption that if the twilight war did occur then this would be considered a viable option to defeat ICBM launches ast debris from ASAT missions and ICBM launches began to prevent replacement satellites from reaching orbit.

[rcaf_777]

Just a couple of points

More infromationon the Buran spacecraft can be found here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_(spacecraft)

the artcile states that four other shuttles were in the pipeline as of 1993 and another unmaned fligth of the Buran was planned for 1993.

I don't think they put any life support systems in it, so that is why it's missions were unmanned

A few other Soviet Space items are

Energia: A heavy-lift expendable launch system as well as a booster for the Buran spacecraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energia

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-105 Spaceplane: Developed is response to the USAF X-20 Project

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-105

Almaz: The Almaz program was a highly secretive Soviet armed military space station program, which began in the early 1960s.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Just a couple of points

More infromationon the Buran spacecraft can be found here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_(spacecraft)

the artcile states that four other shuttles were in the pipeline as of 1993 and another unmaned fligth of the Buran was planned for 1993.

I don't think they put any life support systems in it, so that is why it's missions were unmanned.

I think two space shuttles would have been as much as the Soviets would have built as unlike America they still had their own rocket based manned space launch programme. I could however live with a third Soviet space shuttle, but no more.

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Energia: A heavy-lift expendable launch system as well as a booster for the Buran spacecraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energia.

Had the payload mass of a Saturn V. Amazing how the Soviets could design rockets as powerful as this as well as having a space shuttles programme and have manned rocket launchers for a fraction of the budget that America gave NASA.

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-105 Spaceplane: Developed is response to the USAF X-20 Project

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-105].

I'm not sure if the Mig-105 was a real programme or just an elaborate Soviet disinformation exercise.

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Almaz: The Almaz program was a highly secretive Soviet armed military space station program, which began in the early 1960s.

I think the Mir space station and ultimately the IIS was the end product of the Almaz programme.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by bobcat

although if the soviets wanted to ensure polyus wasn't seen as a violation of the treaty they could have claimed it was as a preventative measure against kessler syndrome as by that point there was enough orbital debris for the aeronautics community to consider it as a potential threat. and yes i keep mentioning kessler syndrome for a reason.

kessler syndrome

this can destroy the majority of existing space platforms and even prevent future launches for generations. its a safe assumption that if the twilight war did occur then this would be considered a viable option to defeat ICBM launches ast debris from ASAT missions and ICBM launches began to prevent replacement satellites from reaching orbit.

Although could be argued that Polybus as an orbital laser armed spacecraft designed to destroy NATO satellites would have contributed to the Kessler Syndrome itself.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by dylan

Don't forget Polyus...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyus_%28spacecraft%29

I think it was probably a good thing that the launch of Polyus failed, and I think Gorbachev who was at the launching in Baikonur was privately glad too as he forbade its testing even if the launch had been successful. Prototype or not, a laser armed spaceship in orbit designed to destroy American and NATO satellites would have been way to provocative. God knows how much funding America would have pumped into its military space programme.