T2K in space

[dylan]

Don't forget Polyus...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyus_%28spacecraft%29

[bobcat]

Originally Posted by dylan

Don't forget Polyus...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyus_%28spacecraft%29

although if the soviets wanted to ensure polyus wasn't seen as a violation of the treaty they could have claimed it was as a preventative measure against kessler syndrome as by that point there was enough orbital debris for the aeronautics community to consider it as a potential threat. and yes i keep mentioning kessler syndrome for a reason.

kessler syndrome

this can destroy the majority of existing space platforms and even prevent future launches for generations. its a safe assumption that if the twilight war did occur then this would be considered a viable option to defeat ICBM launches ast debris from ASAT missions and ICBM launches began to prevent replacement satellites from reaching orbit.

[rcaf_777]

Just a couple of points

More infromationon the Buran spacecraft can be found here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_(spacecraft)

the artcile states that four other shuttles were in the pipeline as of 1993 and another unmaned fligth of the Buran was planned for 1993.

I don't think they put any life support systems in it, so that is why it's missions were unmanned

A few other Soviet Space items are

Energia: A heavy-lift expendable launch system as well as a booster for the Buran spacecraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energia

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-105 Spaceplane: Developed is response to the USAF X-20 Project

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-105

Almaz: The Almaz program was a highly secretive Soviet armed military space station program, which began in the early 1960s.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Just a couple of points

More infromationon the Buran spacecraft can be found here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_(spacecraft)

the artcile states that four other shuttles were in the pipeline as of 1993 and another unmaned fligth of the Buran was planned for 1993.

I don't think they put any life support systems in it, so that is why it's missions were unmanned.

I think two space shuttles would have been as much as the Soviets would have built as unlike America they still had their own rocket based manned space launch programme. I could however live with a third Soviet space shuttle, but no more.

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Energia: A heavy-lift expendable launch system as well as a booster for the Buran spacecraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energia.

Had the payload mass of a Saturn V. Amazing how the Soviets could design rockets as powerful as this as well as having a space shuttles programme and have manned rocket launchers for a fraction of the budget that America gave NASA.

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-105 Spaceplane: Developed is response to the USAF X-20 Project

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-105].

I'm not sure if the Mig-105 was a real programme or just an elaborate Soviet disinformation exercise.

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Almaz: The Almaz program was a highly secretive Soviet armed military space station program, which began in the early 1960s.

I think the Mir space station and ultimately the IIS was the end product of the Almaz programme.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I realize that part of the thing about T2k for many is "All is bleak, all is terrible" but consider a nice side adventure where a few "orbital labs" from each side alter their orbits and become their own federation, giving the middle finger to the ground based nations.

It might make for a good bit of gaming fun.

Since we hand-wave a lot of factual stuff for T2k to "work" anyway, I'd say: a Buran-class shuttle and American shuttle were at their respective stations when things went bad. They use their fuel and reactive jets to reposition the stations and MOLs close enough together that they can be linked up, if only by cables, or brought close enough that a space-walk is no great consideration. Political officers and military personnel who refuse to join the new, neutral "country" are gently but firmly* shown the Soyuz which is programmed to land near a relatively populated area and told "Good luck, you're on your own". Since the shuttles are so alike in design, if reentry is called for one can be kept in service by cannibalizing the other. "Science projects" of various growth mediums are used to keep algae and other plants producing food and O2. A small and somewhat thriving space colony of expats from East and West makes a go at it for a few years before coming home...

(Actually that's kind of the plot of William Gibson's Red Star, Winter Orbit, a decidedly non-cyberpunk short story and a damn good read.)

...

*=or drugged and thrown in.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I realize that part of the thing about T2k for many is "All is bleak, all is terrible" but consider a nice side adventure where a few "orbital labs" from each side alter their orbits and become their own federation, giving the middle finger to the ground based nations.

It might make for a good bit of gaming fun.

With the greatest respect, I find this scenario very unrealistic. For starters, as soon as the nukes start flying the crews in space are going to assume that the world as they know it is ending. No more resupply flights, no more ground based radar and support. Not to mention the very real possibility of nukes being detonated in orbit, EMPing orbital hardware into oblivion. What possible advantage would there be in staying in space? It seems like a suicidal decision.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Since the shuttles are so alike in design, if reentry is called for one can be kept in service by cannibalizing the other.

Again, highly unrealistic. Apollo 13 shows us how even 2 spacecraft built in the same country but by different contractors have non-compatible hardware. Just because the US and Soviet space shuttles look similar and perform similar functions doesn't mean any of their components would be easily interchangeable. And trying to modify and retrofit major spacecraft components in space with no earth-side support and expecting the resulting hybrid systems to last months or even years? That scenario is a little bit "cinematic" for me.

I'm not playing devil's advocate or taking a shot at you, raketenjagdpanzer, that's just honestly how I see it.

[Olefin]

Actually worked on the space shuttle program - was one of the designers for the Extended Duration Orbiter pod that was on Columbia when she went down and did part of the design and test work for the drag chute. The shuttles were great vehicles but their time up there was very limited - at best they could stay in orbit for a couple of weeks at time. Even in conjuction with a surviving orbital station they could have only stayed up for a couple of months before they would have had to come home - they just werent designed for long duration space flights.

Now if you can postulate a moon base that was dug in on the polar areas where there was access to the ice that is on the moon you could have a long term space presence - but I dont see that happening in any possible timeline that could occur during the years the game was set in.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by bobcat

although if the soviets wanted to ensure polyus wasn't seen as a violation of the treaty they could have claimed it was as a preventative measure against kessler syndrome as by that point there was enough orbital debris for the aeronautics community to consider it as a potential threat. and yes i keep mentioning kessler syndrome for a reason.

kessler syndrome

this can destroy the majority of existing space platforms and even prevent future launches for generations. its a safe assumption that if the twilight war did occur then this would be considered a viable option to defeat ICBM launches ast debris from ASAT missions and ICBM launches began to prevent replacement satellites from reaching orbit.

Although could be argued that Polybus as an orbital laser armed spacecraft designed to destroy NATO satellites would have contributed to the Kessler Syndrome itself.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by dylan

Don't forget Polyus...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyus_%28spacecraft%29

I think it was probably a good thing that the launch of Polyus failed, and I think Gorbachev who was at the launching in Baikonur was privately glad too as he forbade its testing even if the launch had been successful. Prototype or not, a laser armed spaceship in orbit designed to destroy American and NATO satellites would have been way to provocative. God knows how much funding America would have pumped into its military space programme.