How dark is the future of the Morrow Project

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I forgive that guy, but I don't forgive his superiors. Why wasn't such a program already written? Why didn't the regional commands or other backups have some kind of timer or other way of awakening?

Realistically, every single manned Morrow facility (including team boltholes) should have had a timer that woke the team (or at least the CO) after a certain time. And every command superior to that one should have the ability to reset that timer remotely. Set the initial timer for 5 years, and every year that you don't want them awake, send the reset signal. When you are ready, send the wake-up, but if the ability to transmit is lost then the Project still activates a few years later.

No decent engineer or manager would fail to allow for the possibility that Prime Base would be taken out prior to launching the Teams. Stray nuke, Morrow civil-war, hostile takeover, whatever - there is a possibility that this single transmitter at this single location will not work. And it has to work. There should be automated systems working in parallel with manned systems, with the latter ensuring the correct functioning of the former and the former acting as a back up to failures of the more-frail latter.

Because they planned for a manned operation that would monitor and catalog the events of the War......... They did not plan for a raid intended to destroy them with a nuclear bomb and poison the survivors with an engineered bioweapon......

This was written before computers were commonplace doing those things. We look back and think "Duh!" but, Windows 7 would have been science fiction then.......... Timers and countdowns would have been mechanical one offs.... computers were still larger than a home upright freezer.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Because they planned for a manned operation that would monitor and catalog the events of the War......... They did not plan for a raid intended to destroy them with a nuclear bomb and poison the survivors with an engineered bioweapon......

By canon Bio weapons were used by the Russians and that use would most defiantly have been documented by Prime given the amount of resources dedicated to monitoring all spectrum of communication.

Even with this information Prime chose to break their own seals early without a suitable backup plan. I have a lot of trouble with this.

Even without an opposing force, a fire, explosion, or carbon monoxide leak could have taken out prime or at a minimum its communications or records storage.

I have a backup facility on an island which is also taken out by sabotage. While it is still unlikely, it sits better with me than Prime being allowed to be a single point of failure for a multibillion dollar project.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by kato13

By canon Bio weapons were used by the Russians and that use would most defiantly have been documented by Prime given the amount of resources dedicated to monitoring all spectrum of communication.

Even with this information Prime chose to break their own seals early without a suitable backup plan. I have a lot of trouble with this.

Even without an opposing force, a fire, explosion, or carbon monoxide leak could have taken out prime or at a minimum its communications or records storage.

I have a backup facility on an island which is also taken out by sabotage. While it is still unlikely, it sits better with me than Prime being allowed to be a single point of failure for a multibillion dollar project.

Sabotage from within by agents of the Rich Five is a plausible excuse. The Rich Five was members of the Council of Tomorrow and they seem determine to eradicate the Morrow Project as a threat to their new regime.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Sabotage from within by agents of the Rich Five is a plausible excuse. The Rich Five was members of the Council of Tomorrow and they seem determine to eradicate the Morrow Project as a threat to their new regime.

Yep that is what happens to both Prime and Isla Nublar.

Prime is taken out by the a computer virus and the canon virus.

The Isla Nublar backup communication team has 36 personnel in cryo and 4 live watchmen. One of them is a Rich five plant who kills the other 3 and sabotages the tubes.

[ArmySGT.]

*Plot Twist!*

The Rich Five facility in Kentucky is the alternate to Prime Base! Just as massive and equipped.

The Rich Five used their positions within the Council of Tomorrow to steer their own loyal followers into the base staff, auxiliary personnel, and teams.

Anyone still loyal to the Project or the U.S. .gov slipped, fell,and caught a 9mm at the base of the skull in a tragic accident.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

*Plot Twist!*

The Rich Five facility in Kentucky is the alternate to Prime Base! Just as massive and equipped.

The Rich Five used their positions within the Council of Tomorrow to steer their own loyal followers into the base staff, auxiliary personnel, and teams.

Anyone still loyal to the Project or the U.S. .gov slipped, fell,and caught a 9mm at the base of the skull in a tragic accident.

I like it.

Maybe a loyalist destroyed the data on locations and wakeup codes when he realized what was happening.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The Rich Five used their positions within the Council of Tomorrow to steer their own loyal followers into the base staff, auxiliary personnel, and teams.

I am curious... where does it indicate that the Rich Five were on the Council of Tomorrow? I always understood that they were able to steal some information from TMP, but the lower level of technology implied that they lacked the kind of access that Council membership should have provided.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I am curious... where does it indicate that the Rich Five were on the Council of Tomorrow? I always understood that they were able to steal some information from TMP, but the lower level of technology implied that they lacked the kind of access that Council membership should have provided.

I haven't ignored your question....... I just haven't found an answer in Canon materials.

Bullets and Bluegrass tells us that the Rich Five had Cryosleep technology before the War on their own. Canon states that the Cryosleep technology was in use by the Project, the U.S. government (Canada too, with Snake Eaters), the Frozen Chosen, and the Rich Five.

This way we infer that the Rich Five, as industrialists, had to be part of the Council of Tomorrow, or the Corporations responsible for Cryosleep research or production...... Cryosleep research begins in the 1960s with animal research (Fallback), though principal researchers, corporation, and places of production are not named.

I will continue to have a look through the modules, I think the answer is there.

[RandyT0001]

In 3rd edition there were no regional HQ bases. (Created by fans of the game, regional bases were added in the 4th edition.) There was Prime Base to serve as HQ. (IIRC) There was an implication that there was an unmanned back-up base that the teams could find to wake up other teams. In Final Watch it states that the Command unit of Combined Group Seattle has codes to activate the other units in their group. Unfortunately, the ash covers the recieving antenna of the other units blocking the signal so Command cannot activate them.

From my understanding Morrow would travel to the future, return to the "present" to check the progress of building the project then again travel to the future. He did this several times. My guess is that each time he went into the future he saw one of two futures. The first future proceeds where the Project works as planned. The second future progresses where Prime Base is lost, the factions (Breeders, Frozen Chosen, Krell, KFS, etc.) emerge, and the success of the Project cannot be guaranteed. Morrow had to build the Project to address either outcome, to best of his ability without tipping off those on the Council of Tomorrow who eventually set up their own facilities (like the KFS and Chosen). Despite his best attempt to hide it those individuals would discover his dual plans about half of the time. For the PC's the game is set where they find out and split their own program from the Project.

The 79 members of the 15 teams in the Seattle group were scattered around Puget Sound. In 1980 there were about 2 million in the metro area. In 1990 there were about 2.5 million in the metro area. This raises the question: is this ratio of 15 teams with about 80 personnel per 2,250,000 pre-war population used across the entire nation? ArmySGT's post in the final Watch thread (http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=11) shows the destruction in the Pugent Sound area. Just 80 people to assist the 60,000 - 100,000 survivors over an area about 5,000 square miles, five years after the bombs fall? Seems more like a token effort to me. Using this ratio there are about 9,000-11,000 Project members using about 2200 vehicles.

How about this possibility? In 4th edition the regional bases are added. Prime Base is again lost to an attack. Before death the base's few survivors again set up a wake-up program in the base's EMP protected computer that malfunctions and wakes one team at a time. Each regional base becomes a back-up base for the Project. Each regional base has a fail-safe computer that will wake up the base's command unit six years after the the nuke attack. Unfortunately, these computers were not installed with EMP protection being sabotaged by moles of the Rich Five. Once again only one team is awaken at a time like in 3rd edition.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

In 3rd edition there were no regional HQ bases. (Created by fans of the game, regional bases were added in the 4th edition.)

The same page does say there are 10 bases/depots….. and I have to dig for the entry that states the Project is divided into 10 regions. I have to look…. I don’t remember page or section….. could even be a module. There is reference to a back up to Prime and 10 supply bases is on page 34 of 3rd edition.

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

There was Prime Base to serve as HQ. (IIRC) There was an implication that there was an unmanned back-up base that the teams could find to wake up other teams. In Final Watch it states that the Command unit of Combined Group Seattle has codes to activate the other units in their group. Unfortunately, the ash covers the recieving antenna of the other units blocking the signal so Command cannot activate them.

One of the things that makes “Final Watch” a little less desperate for the players in it, is they have these codes. I would think that the Combined Group Leader would have had more information to go with……… Like locations Commo Base KA, the location of VB-1, and some way to locate a Team that did not activate with the recall code. I would think that the first priority after assessing that something is very, very wrong with the Project would to activate the entire Combined Group. Wake the Engineers as they have digging equipment and then locate all the rest.

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

From my understanding Morrow would travel to the future, return to the "present" to check the progress of building the project then again travel to the future. He did this several times. My guess is that each time he went into the future he saw one of two futures. The first future proceeds where the Project works as planned. The second future progresses where Prime Base is lost, the factions (Breeders, Frozen Chosen, Krell, KFS, etc.) emerge, and the success of the Project cannot be guaranteed. Morrow had to build the Project to address either outcome, to best of his ability without tipping off those on the Council of Tomorrow who eventually set up their own facilities (like the KFS and Chosen). Despite his best attempt to hide it those individuals would discover his dual plans about half of the time. For the PC's the game is set where they find out and split their own program from the Project.

More or less, now add in multiple Earths all in the same scenario, but with slightly different circumstances so what works in one fails in another.

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

The 79 members of the 15 teams in the Seattle group were scattered around Puget Sound. In 1980 there were about 2 million in the metro area. In 1990 there were about 2.5 million in the metro area. This raises the question: is this ratio of 15 teams with about 80 personnel per 2,250,000 pre-war population used across the entire nation? ArmySGT's post in the final Watch thread (http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=11) shows the destruction in the Pugent Sound area. Just 80 people to assist the 60,000 - 100,000 survivors over an area about 5,000 square miles, five years after the bombs fall? Seems more like a token effort to me. Using this ratio there are about 9,000-11,000 Project members using about 2200 vehicles.

The Project is meant to assist, not do everything. They were expecting thousands of survivors with useful skills and tons of equipment that just needed to be organized, safeguarded, and put to use.

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

How about this possibility? In 4th edition the regional bases are added. Prime Base is again lost to an attack. Before death the base's few survivors again set up a wake-up program in the base's EMP protected computer that malfunctions and wakes one team at a time. Each regional base becomes a back-up base for the Project. Each regional base has a fail-safe computer that will wake up the base's command unit six years after the the nuke attack. Unfortunately, these computers were not installed with EMP protection being sabotaged by moles of the Rich Five. Once again only one team is awaken at a time like in 3rd edition.

Every base so far has been buried which negates EMP, other than that it is as plausible as the others. Flesh it out.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The same page does say there are 10 bases/depots….. and I have to dig for the entry that states the Project is divided into 10 regions. I have to look…. I don’t remember page or section….. could even be a module. There is reference to a back up to Prime and 10 supply bases is on page 34 of 3rd edition.

It references supply bases and says there should be no more than 10. It makes no direct reference to command structure. 1-2 Prime Bases, <10 supply bases, an unknown number of specialty bases, and then the team boltholes and caches. No reference to command structure.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The Project is meant to assist, not do everything. They were expecting thousands of survivors with useful skills and tons of equipment that just needed to be organized, safeguarded, and put to use.

Sure they were... that still doesn't change the numbers. Randy's estimate of the total manpower is not unreasonable, and is consistent with the last module. Heck, I would consider 10-20 thousand to be the bare minimum, less than a thousand would have virtually no chance.

[stormlion1]

Which is why I think things were a set up and Bruce Morrow had other plans for those teams. He knew such a small sized group couldn't really do anything but in the future when there were less people they would be a whole more effective.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Which is why I think things were a set up and Bruce Morrow had other plans for those teams. He knew such a small sized group couldn't really do anything but in the future when there were less people they would be a whole more effective.

But why are you assuming "such a small sized group"? There are no canon answers as to the size of TMP, only answers as to the size of specific parts of it, and if those parts are extrapolated to cover the nation then it would suggest that there are tens of thousands of people in the project - a reasonable number for the tasks assigned!

There is the issue that the support structure is wholly inadequate, but the published material in 3rd edition was pretty thin and gives every evidence of simply having been poorly and perhaps inconsistently written. This is not unique to TMP, most fiction franchises run into this problem, it comes from putting specific objectives (like "exciting game play" and "meeting deadlines") ahead of creating a coherent fictional universe.

If you want to reinvent Morrow as a villain, go ahead, but I prefer to keep the tone of the game intact and change the details that are inconsistent with that tone.