Contact pack

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Craig67

In Operation Lucifer its clearly stated that the items look worn but are in perfect working condition.

Don't you feel that the pack is missing items that would make it a convincing disguise?

[kato13]

I took the kits contents from Operation Lucifer but I admit it is a little light.

I think we could add some the following as many are pretty small (these are items in my personal equipment packs as well)

Canteen 1 Liter Colapasable
Canteen 1 Liter Cover
Canteen 2 Liter
Canteen 2 Liter Cover
Canteen Cup & stand
Bath Tissue 2-Ply 550sheet, Roll
Mess Kit (Stainless KFS,pan,tray)
Knfie fork spoon
Mess Kit Bag
Can Opener (P-38) x 2
Bungee Cord x 2
Shelter Half
Wool Blanket
Single Edged Razor Blade x 10
Boot Knife
Swiss Army Knife
Leather Man tool (Pliers)
Leatherman Micra (Scissors)
Cigarette Lighter (Multifuel)
Magnesium Fire Starter
Lensatic Sighting Compass
Small Arms Cleaning Kit
Deck of Cards (Paper Box)
Die x2
Pencil x 3
Tactical Memo Book (3.5" x 6" / 60 pages)
Super Glue, Tube 3g .10 oz
Personal Defense Spray
Small Sewing Kit
Pacer Beads
Mini Binoculars

You might even add a few coins or other items from the trade packs depending on the situation.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by kato13

I took the kits contents from Operation Lucifer but I admit it is a little light.

I think we could add some the following as many are pretty small (these are items in my personal equipment packs as well)

Canteen 1 Liter Colapasable
Canteen 1 Liter Cover
Canteen 2 Liter
Canteen 2 Liter Cover
Canteen Cup & stand
Bath Tissue 2-Ply 550sheet, Roll
Mess Kit (Stainless KFS,pan,tray)
Knfie fork spoon
Mess Kit Bag
Can Opener (P-38) x 2
Bungee Cord x 2
Shelter Half
Wool Blanket
Single Edged Razor Blade x 10
Boot Knife
Swiss Army Knife
Leather Man tool (Pliers)
Leatherman Micra (Scissors)
Cigarette Lighter (Multifuel)
Magnesium Fire Starter
Lensatic Sighting Compass
Small Arms Cleaning Kit
Deck of Cards (Paper Box)
Die x2
Pencil x 3
Tactical Memo Book (3.5" x 6" / 60 pages)
Super Glue, Tube 3g .10 oz
Personal Defense Spray
Small Sewing Kit
Pacer Beads
Mini Binoculars

You might even add a few coins or other items from the trade packs depending on the situation.

Minor details like a mix of civvie, military and Scouting stuff.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Don't you feel that the pack is missing items that would make it a convincing disguise?

That depends both on the nature of the disguise and how long it is supposed to hold up. Neither are made clear in the books, but my best guess is "hobo" and "not tremendously long". If you don't first answer the questions "why am I here" and "who am I supposed to be, anyway" you can't really make a disguise that is going to do anything more than disguise Morrow affiliation... which I am pretty sure was the point anyway.

Personally, I would say that the designated contact people should have assembled their own pack so that the contents were unique but sensible to the individuals. Remember, they don't need to survive on this stuff more than a day or so, and they can always say that they just lost <insert vital gear here> a few days ago due to river/bandits/throwing-it-off-a-cliff!

[stormlion1]

I look at it that to well equipped the contact person leaves themselves open to harassment. Not everyone will have access to a canteen for instance. In fact that's a pretty rare piece of equipment unless you go out and look for one. Not everyone goes camping or has a army navy store nearby.

[kato13]

I think it all depends on the situation.

If you have a trading post type town having more might be ok.

The more im thinking about it the more I like the concept of pretending to be a refugee. Seeing how they treat someone who is helpless might be a good indicator of the general vibe of the town.

[stormlion1]

I did a test recently. Mostly because I was putting together a new Get Home Bag and I asked several of my friends if they had things I would consider essentials. Things like canteens and backpacks or sleeping bags and what not. Out of them all only two had any kind of preparations or gear. One is a avid camper so of course she was well equipped and the other had a backpack and that was it. Everyone is a refugee when the world ends these days. But very few are equipped to handle it. I like to think that a contact person needs to blend in, and in a world of refugee's then its time to dress like one.

[ArmySGT.]

I would expect a Contact Specialist from either Recon or Specialist Psy Ops to spend a few days with any group. Any judgements made in a few hours would be little more than snap judgements.

In this way, I feel the equipment has to fill the expectations. I, totally, agree that the Contact Specialist would have built the kit from thrift store purchases pre-War. This way the clothes would fit, the boots broken in, and the equipment would be familiar. Wouldn't want to be trying to use a flint & steel for the first time in front of new contacts.

[stormlion1]

I kind of wonder if the Project actually would set up training scenario's using a fake town and civilians and send in teams to train in contact scenario's and defensive ones. Possible even combat scenario's. Easier in earlier editions of course as satellite surveillance and all the tracking that happens in todays world wouldn't exist. Or would everything be classroom and hope for the best.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

I look at it that to well equipped the contact person leaves themselves open to harassment. Not everyone will have access to a canteen for instance. In fact that's a pretty rare piece of equipment unless you go out and look for one. Not everyone goes camping or has a army navy store nearby.

I take a nalgene water bottle everywhere, but I have used 1 liter Mt. Dew bottles as canteens because they are disposable.

Might be my location...... Colorado is definitely and outdoor enthusiast state.

You can buy a nalgene bottle at just about any gas station/convenience store here..... These are even routine swag at expo booths.

[stormlion1]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I take a nalgene water bottle everywhere, but I have used 1 liter Mt. Dew bottles as canteens because they are disposable.

Might be my location...... Colorado is definitely and outdoor enthusiast state.

You can buy a nalgene bottle at just about any gas station/convenience store here..... These are even routine swag at expo booths.

Not here on the East Coast or at least South Jersey. People who enjoy the outdoors are a minority and those equipped for it even more so. I have friends who have a ton of gear, but none of it is suitable for backpacking or hiking but drive in stuff and there idea of bringing water is a small bottle of Poland Springs. I have a camping trip with some friends set for next week. My gear is packed and ready and fits on my back and except for an axe everything fits inside of the pack.
My friends on the other hand have several hundred pounds of gear, and expect to split it between the three of them in three packs. Quite a bit of it they don't need. I mean one girl has a eight man tent! It weighs thirty pounds and when I asked if she was bringing water I got told she has a few small bottles and would drink from the stream or the pump if she got thirsty. She's not the brightest bulb at the best of times but I expected her to be smarter than that.
People here expect to be able to drive in most of the time and the few walk in sites are usually empty except for one or two campers at a time. The drive in ones are always full.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Not here on the East Coast or at least South Jersey. People who enjoy the outdoors are a minority and those equipped for it even more so. I have friends who have a ton of gear, but none of it is suitable for backpacking or hiking but drive in stuff and there idea of bringing water is a small bottle of Poland Springs. I have a camping trip with some friends set for next week. My gear is packed and ready and fits on my back and except for an axe everything fits inside of the pack.
My friends on the other hand have several hundred pounds of gear, and expect to split it between the three of them in three packs. Quite a bit of it they don't need. I mean one girl has a eight man tent! It weighs thirty pounds and when I asked if she was bringing water I got told she has a few small bottles and would drink from the stream or the pump if she got thirsty. She's not the brightest bulb at the best of times but I expected her to be smarter than that.
People here expect to be able to drive in most of the time and the few walk in sites are usually empty except for one or two campers at a time. The drive in ones are always full.

Might in fact be regional.... Things can be a long drive here just to go shopping.... Denver Metro, you can have anything or get anything....live out on the Plains or in the Mountains and you can expect to drive hours to get it.

A blizzard here can mean empty shelves in grocery stores for seven to fourteen days on some items. It can also mean getting stuck because roads are closed.

Really, though outdoor activities ranks highly on most peoples reasons for living in Colorado... typically skiing, snowboarding, camping, hiking, and climbing with a lot of runners and cyclists too.

[ArmySGT.]

I have been to Bass Pro, Cabela's, REI, Sportsman's warehouse, Big 5, and several other large chains here locally. Then there is plenty of small business outdoor or army/navy surplus shops too.

Heck, I get used camping gear at yardsales and Good will. Sometimes it is in excellent shape.

[stormlion1]

I have got to move out west...

[ArmySGT.]

Items from contributors to this list; minus the insurance claims adjuster.

.30-06 bolt action
8'x6' tarp
can opener
civilian hiking pack
flask of whiskey
military poncho liner
military style 1qt canteen with cup
multitool
Savage Axis .223
100' of 550 cord
1-3 bottles of booze
2 cans of soup
2 carabiners
20F Coleman bag
3 ears of corn
3 or 4 16/20 oz soda bottles.
4 tent stakes
50 rounds of loose ammo
80 beef bullion cubes
A battered, non working MP3 player, with a concealed transmitter
A buckskin wrap containing 14 oz of smoked dried meat.
A film container containing 1/2 oz cannabis with small wood carved pipe.
A piece of metal wrapped in duct tape for an improvised knife.
a pretty well worn bike
A tupperware container filled with peanuts.
AA batteries
Bandana, Neckercheif, Red 1
Bath Tissue 2-Ply 550sheet, Roll
Belt, Leather 1
Boot Knife
Boots, Hiking, Leather, "Kastinger" 1 Pair
Bungee Cord x 2
Can Opener (P-38) x 2
Candles
Canteen 1 Liter Colapasable
Canteen 1 Liter Cover
Canteen 2 Liter
Canteen 2 Liter Cover
Canteen Cup & stand
Carbine, Marlin 1894, Cal. 44 Magnum 1
Cartridge, .44 Magnum 30
Cartridge, .44 Magnum 50
chewing tobacco
chocolates
Cigarette Lighter (Multifuel)
civvie backpack
coleman 4 burn
condoms
Deck of Cards (Paper Box)
Die x2
disposable razors
duct tape
Flask, Hip, containing Scotch 12 oz
Food, Canned 1 Days ration 3
freeze dried meals
Glock
Hat, Felt, floppy "crusher", white in color 1
Holster, Leather 1
Jacket, Denim, "Levis" 1
kerosene railroad lantern
Knfie fork spoon
large Coleman camp stove
Leather Man tool (Pliers)
Leatherman Micra (Scissors)
Lensatic Sighting Compass
Magnesium Fire Starter
Mess Kit (Stainless KFS,pan,tray)
Mess Kit Bag
Military canteen on a leather belt
Mini Binoculars
MREs
one liter Mt Dew bottle
One or two pieces of Gold, 2 or 3 of silver
Pacer Beads
Pack and personal items, assorted
Pack, Nylon (contents listed)
Pack, Nylon 1
Pencil x 3
Personal Defense Spray
Phone books (improvised TP)
pre '64 junk silver
prescription pain killers
pump shotgun
raw vodka or whiskey
Revolver, M-29, Cal. .44 magnum w/ 6 1/2 bbl 1
semi auto AR-15
Shell, 12 Guage 30
Shelter Half
Shirt, Work, Cotton Flannel, Plaid in color 2
Shotgun, Remington 870, 12 Guage 1
silver dollars
Simple Fishing Gear
Single Edged Razor Blade x 10
skinning and butchering tools
Small Arms Cleaning Kit
small bottles of hot sauce
Small Sewing Kit
Socks, Wool 4 Pair
Solo Stove
stale cigarettes
Super Glue, Tube 3g .10 oz
sweat shirt from the university that you attended possibly
Swiss Army Knife
Tactical Memo Book (3.5" x 6" / 60 pages)
the last 100 pages of a paper back book. (used as toilet paper)
Twine
Underwear
Wool Blanket

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Not here on the East Coast or at least South Jersey. People who enjoy the outdoors are a minority and those equipped for it even more so.

There are a few important points being missed here, I think.

1) The war will kill a lot of people and destroy or render unusable a great deal of equipment, but considering that many of the deaths will occur post-nukes and that most "outdoor equipment" will be in rural areas away from targeted sites, the amount of such equipment available per person should be greater than it is now.

2) Someone without the appropriate gear simply isn't travelling, especially alone. You're not making a cross-country journey on foot with refilled Dasani bottles (if any are still intact) - if that is all you have, you're staying put, or travelling as a refugee group if absolutely necessary. Your gear may not be pretty or well-integrated, but it will be functional and will cover all the basics.

3) At the time the contact pack is meant to be used, survivors will have had five years to loot National Guard armories, Army/Navy stores, and sporting goods suppliers. While a refugee in the first months might be wandering around with a partial kit, at this point everyone has either assembled a functional set of survival tools... or died.

Oh, and everything I mentioned about gear applies to skills, too - the survivors 5 years in will either have had those skills to begin with, or would by necessity have acquired them in the interim. A lone, poorly equipped, unskilled traveler 5 years in would almost certainly be held in high suspicion.

[Craig67]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Don't you feel that the pack is missing items that would make it a convincing disguise?

Keep in mind it was intended for 5 years after the war. For that time frame and for a short term disguise its ok, not great but ok. It sure is better than nothing.

Sure its missing stuff, but a wanderer or traveller 5 years after WWIII would not have a complete kit, just what s/he could scrounge.

[stormlion1]

Originally Posted by Craig67

Keep in mind it was intended for 5 years after the war. For that time frame and for a short term disguise its ok, not great but ok. It sure is better than nothing.

Sure its missing stuff, but a wanderer or traveller 5 years after WWIII would not have a complete kit, just what s/he could scrounge.

Precisely! Most wanderers or travelers would never have any military gear but only civvie stuff and well worn stuff at that. Every sleep in a civvie tent for more than two weeks? They get torn up unless your careful.

[cosmicfish]

Whether they have civilian gear or military is irrelevant - there will certainly be surplus military gear around, so a given traveler could easily have either. If it exists as an item of non-Morrow equipment, there is a plausible reason why a given traveler could have it or not have it.

The biggest problem for the contact person is not their gear, it is (at least the first time around) coming up with a reason why they are travelling in the first place, and explaining their inexplicable lack of knowledge about certain subjects. Remember, the contact person is not an emissary to some newly discovered aboriginal tribe, they are a distant cousin of that very same tribe, expected to share a certain degree of communal knowledge and experience.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Craig67

Sure its missing stuff, but a wanderer or traveller 5 years after WWIII would not have a complete kit, just what s/he could scrounge.

Any traveler would either have a complete kit, be trying to settle down and avoid further travel, or be working to complete that kit. Post-apocalyptic travel is too slow, onerous, and dangerous for anyone to willingly try it without adequate gear.

[ArmySGT.]

Military or Civilian wouldn't bother anyone..... 95% of the people on the planet died. National Guard armories would be looted (no ammunition in State armories). Any soldiers, guardsmen, or reservists homes would turn up anything issued currently and surplus from the past.

What I think screams "FAKE!" is that the kit has nothing to cook with or eat with. There isn't even a can opener for the canned goods. There isn't anything to sleep under like a wool blanket. If you can't live out of the kit, then you look like your weren't meant to; this means spy.

Any survivors community would be suspicious just on account of raiders and thieves.

[kato13]

I think the pack should have well used equipment but have lots of options. It could have 300 items, but the specialist might only carry 20 of them if that is what the situation calls for.

I can see the specialist posing as

• A refugee
• A victim of local banditry
• A wandering tradesman
• A "bard"
• A messenger
• A beggar
• A person looking for lost loved ones
• A merchant (this makes more sense if the party has a horse)

Heck if they have good acting skills they might even portray a simpleton.

I always try to remember that the project expected contact to be five years after and had literally no idea what they would find, so I like flexibility.

Even though we had a 95% death rate there could still be a town with 10,000 people. That requires a different interaction plan than if you are dealing with the standard two street town as seen in so many westerns, where everyone knows everyone and a new face would draw much attention.

[stormlion1]

Me and some friends were talking about prepping and it was noted that walled towns would become a thing again. So fences and wrecked cars and the like would quickly go up around towns and such. With visitors being screened as they came in or allowed only outside a town in a designated trade area.

[kato13]

I agree that borders would be as solid as people could make them for a central secure area, but people could not stay in those areas all the time. They simply could not create borders large enough to enclose an area that would feed them. In many situations you end up with a mid-evil castle or western territory fort type situation IMO.

That was always my problem with the Road Warrior. Where is their food coming from?

If areas are producing surplus agriculture you could end up with a highly fortified section like found in the movie. Where those around the area trade food for "Juice", but your first interaction would probably be with someone in the farms surrounding any central secured point.

I should add the caveat that my thoughts are for a group of 5 year survivors. Over 150 years it would be possible to cover a significant border with protection, but then it still would be very difficult to have the manpower to patrol it all.