Tank graveyard

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by unkated

There is lots more detail than this; search the internet for more detail.

Uncle Ted

Those were rhetorical questions you understand. Meant to give the modellers insight into why the veterans keep telling them that WW2 tanks are dead meat and scrap metal in any T2K environment.

[Olefin]

and again the T-54 and T-55, M47, M48, M60, Leopard I, AMX-30, etc.. are still seen on Twilight battlefields, are still in forward deployed divisions and are still effective - all of those can kick a Sherman's butt any day of the week -but all of them basically have the same armor type and many of them very similar layouts to the WWII tanks you say would be dead meat in ten minutes - they have better guns and ammo and thicker armor but M1's and Challengers they arent

but they are better than the alternative - which is no tank at all

[Olefin]

And if you looked at Littlefield's collection, let alone at most museums, you see that we arent talking about WWII tanks -yes he has tanks from WWII - but the vast majority of what he has with working barrels and in operable condition, as well as other museums, are M47/M48/M60/M103/Centurions - i.e. Korean War and Vietnam War tanks

so while for some reason people keep fixating on WWII tanks the reality is that most of what will come out of museums to be used on the battlefield are the same tanks that we already see in the Twilight War - i.e. the second and third line older tanks that countries like Turkey had to use or that the UK pulled out of storage in 1998 or that National Guard units were equipped with when they get sent over

so if you run into a T-55 in Poland or Iran and its a handful to go up against because you dont have any anti-armor weapons then why isnt an M48 or M60 pulled out of a museum in California a similar handful to either oppose or have on your side

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

and again the T-54 and T-55, M47, M48, M60, Leopard I, AMX-30, etc.. are still seen on Twilight battlefields, are still in forward deployed divisions and are still effective - all of those can kick a Sherman's butt any day of the week -but all of them basically have the same armor type and many of them very similar layouts to the WWII tanks you say would be dead meat in ten minutes - they have better guns and ammo and thicker armor but M1's and Challengers they arent

but they are better than the alternative - which is no tank at all

The Leopard I is the only survivable one.... Composite armor and all the protective features.

I give the same odds to the rest as I do a littlefield M4 or Panzer.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The Leopard I is the only survivable one.... Composite armor and all the protective features.

I give the same odds to the rest as I do a littlefield M4 or Panzer.

except Littlefield wont be deploying any Panzers as none of them have live barrels (and most of the Shermans he has are heavily modified Super Shermans he got from Israel)

as for the rest that you mentioned as non-survivable - they must be surviveable because the M48 has been fighting in Turkey, the AMX in Germany, Africa and the US (its probably the tank the Mexicans would have), the Leopard I (the original version without the improved armor) in Europe, the M60 in a bunch of US divisions in Korea, Iran, Europe and the US - otherwise they wouldnt be in the various canon books showing them as still on the equipment rosters of those forces

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

except Littlefield wont be deploying any Panzers as none of them have live barrels (and most of the Shermans he has are heavily modified Super Shermans he got from Israel)

That puts an end to the Littlefield machine shop being able to produce anything theory.

Originally Posted by Olefin

as for the rest that you mentioned as non-survivable - they must be surviveable because the M48 has been fighting in Turkey, the AMX in Germany, Africa and the US (its probably the tank the Mexicans would have), the Leopard I (the original version without the improved armor) in Europe, the M60 in a bunch of US divisions in Korea, Iran, Europe and the US - otherwise they wouldnt be in the various canon books showing them as still on the equipment rosters of those forces

The Leopard I has always had composite armor as original armor...it is a product of the MBT - 70 program.

As for the rest.... the authors made a lot of interesting and imaginative but, sadly now canon choices....... like the Navies for example.

If those are around, functional, with trained crews, fuel, and ammunition then they must be part of Division and Corps reserved in case the other guy commits his armor to a massed attack to achieve a break through and deep battle.

This and many WW2, Korea, and Viet Nam fighting vehicles were repaired and returned to service even after entire crews have been killed more than once..... if it wasn't fire or a catastrophic ammo detonation repair was probable given trained maintenance personnel and new or cannibalized parts.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

That puts an end to the Littlefield machine shop being able to produce anything theory.



The Leopard I has always had composite armor as original armor...it is a product of the MBT - 70 program.

As for the rest.... the authors made a lot of interesting and imaginative but, sadly now canon choices....... like the Navies for example.

If those are around, functional, with trained crews, fuel, and ammunition then they must be part of Division and Corps reserved in case the other guy commits his armor to a massed attack to achieve a break through and deep battle.

This and many WW2, Korea, and Viet Nam fighting vehicles were repaired and returned to service even after entire crews have been killed more than once..... if it wasn't fire or a catastrophic ammo detonation repair was probable given trained maintenance personnel and new or cannibalized parts.

no those tanks are in front line units - one of the best units in the Soviet forces in Iran, per the RDF and Kings Ransom, is armed with T-55's and its a frontline unit facing US and Iranian forces - ditto many other Soviet forces

and I never said he could make live barrels - the vehicles with those either had them to begin with or he bought them when they were available and had them in storage waiting to refit the vehicles - not everything he had was live - but there were enough to form a nice composite mech battalion when you add in the APC's and SPG's that worked and were functional as well - and none of them were Panzers

and live barrels are out there - Auction hunters found one in a storage bin for a M3 Stuart in Mass

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The Leopard I has always had composite armor as original armor...it is a product of the MBT - 70 program.

You have your Leo's confused.

The Leo 1 Predates the MBT70 program, where as the Leo 2 program was built off of the German successor to the failed MBT70. So, no, the Leo 1 has no composite armour as originally built (later marks did on the turret, after a fashion).

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

You have your Leo's confused.

The Leo 1 Predates the MBT70 program, where as the Leo 2 program was built off of the German successor to the failed MBT70. So, no, the Leo 1 has no composite armour as originally built (later marks did on the turret, after a fashion).

You're probably right. I am thinking of some cut away views of various tanks and Leo I's where a part of that. Might be a later model of Leo I that I am thinking of.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

and again the T-54 and T-55, M47, M48, M60, Leopard I, AMX-30, etc.. are still seen on Twilight battlefields, are still in forward deployed divisions and are still effective - all of those can kick a Sherman's butt any day of the week -but all of them basically have the same armor type and many of them very similar layouts to the WWII tanks you say would be dead meat in ten minutes - they have better guns and ammo and thicker armor but M1's and Challengers they arent

but they are better than the alternative - which is no tank at all

All of those still had parts being manufactured well into the 90s. Even ammunition for the M48A5s in 90mm for Turkey and a few small Asian nations. It is the logistics and the trained maintenance that would be keeping these going even when crew after crew is killed and their blood rinsed off the equipment.

[Olefin]

And you have a shop with all those parts in abundance ready to support the tanks that they put back in the field - remember its the fact that he has trained techs and equipment and facilities that most dont have - and also the fact that the days of massed armor are over - thus his shop cant support divisions with hundreds of tanks - but the reality is that those divisions dont exist - and adding six to seven tanks, in 2001, is the equivalent of adding a hundred a few years earlier

and marauders are not highly trained forces - maybe in Europe or Korea or Iran - but not in the US - basically you are looking at gangs of thugs and survivalists, most of whom the only military training they ever had was watching old episodes of Combat on TV

the logistics train you need to support a half dozen tanks is alot less than what you need to support hundreds - and thats basically what a force with tanks has nowadays in the US - so again a place like Littefields is exactly what a T2K armored force would need in 2001 to keep going - and his guys can service an M1 tank just as easily as they can an M48

in 1997, 1998, even into 1999 the Army wouldnt want older tanks

now, as per canon, they will take anything with a turret and a main gun for a tank - and thats what an old M47/M48/M41/T55 fits to a T


oh as for mortar and artillery fire called down on the hypothetical Sherman tank sitting in a field in the US - sounds like a great idea- most Mexican forces have a max of 1-2 artillery pieces and limited ammo and mortars wont do squat to a tank, not the typical 60mm and 81mm mortars that are left - and getting a hit with an unguided artillery shell on a tank with your one or two guns is basically impossible - again this is 2001 not 1997

as for RPG's - look at the Texas module - they are describing combat Mexican forces and what they are armed with - and what they dont have is anti-tank weapons - here and there but most units dont have any - so if they dont how do a bunch of marauders who raided a gun store have RPG's?

as for massed fired on periscopes - lets see marauders using hunting rifles and shotguns - again good luck getting even close enough to make a hit on a periscope or vision block let alone taking one out while the coax turns you into swiss cheese - and unless the tank is the one from Fury I dont see it just sitting there as it takes a hell of a lot of fire or waits for the artillery to get lucky and hit the roof

thats the difference between a pillbox and a tank -a tank moves

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

And you have a shop with all those parts in abundance ready to support the tanks that they put back in the field - remember its the fact that he has trained techs and equipment and facilities that most dont have –

You don’t have an abundance of parts. You have possibly a crew of talented fabricators….. if after all in canon any have survived the TDM, the famines, and the plagues… all per canon. After that you don’t have an abundance of parts……. You have talented fabricators that can make parts or engineer a fix on something broken. Assuming you have blueprints, not manuals blueprints with specific dimensions and materials….. You can look up in a manual that a tank gun uses part #47-B for a replacement firing pin….it is all together something else to know the dimensions in metric or English and the materials with hardening specifications to make one. A serviceable one that will function repeatedly.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and also the fact that the days of massed armor are over - thus his shop cant support divisions with hundreds of tanks - but the reality is that those divisions dont exist - and adding six to seven tanks, in 2001, is the equivalent of adding a hundred a few years earlier

So their now recreating the British first use of the tank? Throwing them away in a useless gesture in singles? A tank platoon is 2-3 and a tank company is 10 to 15 depending on national doctrine. Using them any other way is a waste of combat power and resources.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and marauders are not highly trained forces - maybe in Europe or Korea or Iran - but not in the US - basically you are looking at gangs of thugs and survivalists, most of whom the only military training they ever had was watching old episodes of Combat on TV

In the U.S. I would expect marauders to be formed from a core of veterans and deserters. Those motor cycle gangs you are scoffing have a great many disgruntled viet nam veterans that know which end the bullets come out of. Don’t underestimate mauraders and partisans as stupid or ineffective….. Read some German WW2 eastern front history or Japanese Burma campaign history for perspective.

Originally Posted by Olefin

the logistics train you need to support a half dozen tanks is alot less than what you need to support hundreds - and thats basically what a force with tanks has nowadays in the US - so again a place like Littefields is exactly what a T2K armored force would need in 2001 to keep going - and his guys can service an M1 tank just as easily as they can an M48

Originally Posted by Olefin

in 1997, 1998, even into 1999 the Army wouldnt want older tanks
now, as per canon, they will take anything with a turret and a main gun for a tank - and thats what an old M47/M48/M41/T55 fits to a T

I have read the books….. They made up a lot of excuses to forc e the setting to work. What we see in canon is National Guard and Reserves being called up and taking those relics because in canon the huge war stocks of M1s and M2/M3 siting at 29 palms, Seneca, and Sierra have been depleted armin allies. A huge stretch but that is the way the authors painted themselves into a corner.

Originally Posted by Olefin

oh as for mortar and artillery fire called down on the hypothetical Sherman tank sitting in a field in the US - sounds like a great idea- most Mexican forces have a max of 1-2 artillery pieces and limited ammo and mortars wont do squat to a tank, not the typical 60mm and 81mm mortars that are left - and getting a hit with an unguided artillery shell on a tank with your one or two guns is basically impossible - again this is 2001 not 1997

A turret hit on a M60 or a Centurion with a impact fuzed 81mm ………I’ll take that bet….. pound for pound, kilo for kilo, mortars pack more explosives than cannon shells….. The blast is going to stun the crew, strip the MGs and and antennas off, crack or shatter the TC and loaders periscopes.. the chance is remote… but, even jamming the turret traverse gears is possible. Then the spalling as pieces of the armor roof flake off and ricochet around the interior among the crew and main gun ammunition. 105mm HE from a Mexican M101 or M102…. Pretty much the same.. a near miss is survivable….. and direct impact not so much.

I’ll take that bet.

Originally Posted by Olefin

as for RPG's - look at the Texas module - they are describing combat Mexican forces and what they are armed with - and what they dont have is anti-tank weapons - here and there but most units dont have any - so if they dont how do a bunch of marauders who raided a gun store have RPG's?

They have IEDs…… and they don’t attack when the tank has the advantage… They wait for night when the tank is at a disadvantage. They deploy mines and deception to lure the tankers into kill zones, then kill or force the protecting infantry off with mortars, machineguns, and artillery. Then Mexican infantry with White phosporuous, pole charges, satchel charges under smoke and protective machine gun fire kills the tank.

Infantry units world wide practice anti tank tactics without AT rockets or ATGMs as core infantry skills.

Originally Posted by Olefin

as for massed fired on periscopes - lets see marauders using hunting rifles and shotguns - again good luck getting even close enough to make a hit on a periscope or vision block let alone taking one out while the coax turns you into swiss cheese - and unless the tank is the one from Fury I dont see it just sitting there as it takes a hell of a lot of fire or waits for the artillery to get lucky and hit the roof

You are giving me civilian hunting rifles! Ok I’ll take that bet too! Those are going to be topped with x4, x6, x8, and even x10 magnified scopes…….. I am going to detail 4-6 guys widely dispersed and give them a dedicated sector with the gunners primary site and the drivers periscope as primary targets.

Read the “Siege of Grozny” and how the Chechens stopped Russian armor attacks cold.

Originally Posted by Olefin

thats the difference between a pillbox and a tank -a tank moves

No, a tank CAN move if not disabled……. Which isn’t impossible for infantry supported by artillery. Most importantly all of these have unstabilized sights and have to stop to move..... the M60A3 being an exception with the Leopard I

[Olefin]

Sgt - I go by canon - in canon the armored units that are left have very few tanks left - so what is a platoon today is basically everything they have left in the whole division by 2001 - so that waste of combat power and resources isnt happening because they are the British or French in 1940 - its because thats all there is left

thats why what Littlefield has would be a big deal - if all you have left is seven tanks and suddenly you can have that number doubled to 14 by adding seven of his tanks you now have an actual tank company and go back to doctrine - even if they have old style armor - its a real tank company again

and you really need to read up on what Littlefield had and what the auction had as to parts - he had a pretty good amount of spare parts for his collection - if he found six spare parts for an M48 he didnt buy one -he bought them all - and if his guys made a part because there werent any left they made a few spares while they were at it

Think of why tanks and APC's are getting rare - lack of skilled techs and equipment - he has both - meaning now those 7 tanks you have left get repaired and those six "pillboxes" you have back at base get to be operational again - thats what he has to offer - its great if you have all these spare parts (which by 2000 no one has) - you still need a place to use them, the right equipment to use them and men who know how to use it

and your idea of marauders in the US is way off - I agree totally with you in the combat zones in Europe or Alaska or Iran or Korea or China - but here in most of the US they are made up of desperate refugees, criminals, biker gangs, survivalists and anyone else who had a gun and needed food - read the US modules and you dont see large numbers of deserters and veterans - that happened more in places like Europe and Iran

sure some of them have old half remembered military training but not the vast majority of them - one read of the NYC module shows you what you are looking at - and most of them wouldnt have the first idea on how to take on a tank

as for artillery and mortars - the chance of hitting a moving tank with an unguided mortar round or artillery round fired from a group of three or four weapons is basically nil

and while the books made up a lot of excuses thats the scenario we have to work with - and its why tank graveyards in T2K are potential supply depots and not just wastes of good tanks like they are here in our world

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Sgt - I go by canon

When you are in agreement with canon material. However, when you are not such as the discussion on Naval units, Division Cuba, the Mexican campaigns, Howling Wilderness, Armies of the Night, Red star Lonestar, or Urban Guerilla you will depart fast.

Originally Posted by Olefin

- in canon the armored units that are left have very few tanks left - so what is a platoon today is basically everything they have left in the whole division by 2001 - so that waste of combat power and resources isnt happening because they are the British or French in 1940 - its because thats all there is left

Yes, if you are using them in ones and twos like 1917 or 1940 then you invite defeat in detail. That would be a waste of tanks as a combat multiplier and the resources put into furnishing them and the trained crews. If a platoon of tanks is all there is in the entirety of a division in 2001, then those tanks are the division reserve and used when and where the division commander needs them. That is not a resource left to the decisions of a company, battalion, or brigade commander.
The Division Commander will hold that small number of tanks to counter an enemy armor break through or to exploit a gap made by his own infantry with artillery support to free those tanks to get into the enemy rear and kill the enemy logistics train or support troops.

Originally Posted by Olefin

thats why what Littlefield has would be a big deal - if all you have left is seven tanks and suddenly you can have that number doubled to 14 by adding seven of his tanks you now have an actual tank company and go back to doctrine - even if they have old style armor - its a real tank company again

No you have a ersatz made on the spot unit of tanks without training, without ammo, and without integral support that would be sketchy for any commander to use in a dedicated defense let alone in a attack. A unit made of mismatched armor, incompatible parts, fuel use different in consumption and type. A nightmare for a commander and enough trouble to make a S4 OIC to desert his post.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and you really need to read up on what Littlefield had and what the auction had as to parts - he had a pretty good amount of spare parts for his collection - if he found six spare parts for an M48 he didnt buy one -he bought them all - and if his guys made a part because there werent any left they made a few spares while they were at it

I have seen it and read about it…… It is neat, it is a wonderful preservation of history….. What it is not is the huge resource you claim it will be in T2k or T2K+1,+2, or +3. There isn’t a power grid to run it, or the industrial and supply infrastructure to keep it going with cutters, bits, welding gas, and material. Those factories and power plants died in the exchange and no matter how much the Littlefield collection has on hand; when the attempt to get that much equipment repaired those stock are going fast.

This is even assuming,,,,, it is a huge assumption that all these technicians who are retirees and such are have survive the TDM, famines, and plagues. Then to come to work at what has become in your vision a militarily significant target. I posit that they are dead or have departed to care for their families as best they can just like any other civilians. Dollars don’t mean much in T2K.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Think of why tanks and APC's are getting rare - lack of skilled techs and equipment - he has both - meaning now those 7 tanks you have left get repaired and those six "pillboxes" you have back at base get to be operational again - thats what he has to offer - its great if you have all these spare parts (which by 2000 no one has) - you still need a place to use them, the right equipment to use them and men who know how to use it

If the techs are alive, if the shop has power, if you have consumables, if government forces haven’t destroyed them to prevent others from using them. The reasons against the Littlefield collection being anything but another repair depot and one that can be replicated at any truck stop with the lift and cranes, are to many and too damning.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and your idea of marauders in the US is way off - I agree totally with you in the combat zones in Europe or Alaska or Iran or Korea or China - but here in most of the US they are made up of desperate refugees, criminals, biker gangs, survivalists and anyone else who had a gun and needed food - read the US modules and you dont see large numbers of deserters and veterans - that happened more in places like Europe and Iran

Nope, those bikers and survivalists will have at their core veterans from wars and actions prior to 1997. Knowing what they know, probably not going to show up for any muster or recall. Refugees? Likely as not you are right; the other groups you name will have veterans who will teach the others skills and any actions will reduce the unskilled and stupid. War is it’s own Darwinian sieve.

Originally Posted by Olefin

sure some of them have old half remembered military training but not the vast majority of them - one read of the NYC module shows you what you are looking at - and most of them wouldnt have the first idea on how to take on a tank

All it takes is one to teach… What is the Siege of Warsaw, for example.

Originally Posted by Olefin

as for artillery and mortars - the chance of hitting a moving tank with an unguided mortar round or artillery round fired from a group of three or four weapons is basically nil

You lead them like any other target. Flight time is in seconds from the call for fire from a known point. This is a core forward observer skill so I don’t know where you are coming up with your example.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and while the books made up a lot of excuses thats the scenario we have to work with - and its why tank graveyards in T2K are potential supply depots and not just wastes of good tanks like they are here in our world

Which is why the article and the title are a misnomer….. Those are Depots. Those are undamaged, nearly complete vehicles. A tank graveyard is filled with battle damaged vehicles to difficult for company and battalion assets to return to service. A graveyard like that is a Corps collection point far, far, far to the rear. These would be wrecks with a very low probability of any serviceable parts.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Olefin

and your idea of marauders in the US is way off - I agree totally with you in the combat zones in Europe or Alaska or Iran or Korea or China - but here in most of the US they are made up of desperate refugees, criminals, biker gangs, survivalists and anyone else who had a gun and needed food - read the US modules and you dont see large numbers of deserters and veterans - that happened more in places like Europe and Iran

sure some of them have old half remembered military training but not the vast majority of them - one read of the NYC module shows you what you are looking at - and most of them wouldnt have the first idea on how to take on a tank

The FBI tracks various criminal groups in the US. Most "motorcycle clubs" are comprised almost entirely of veterans (many with combat experience).
The Sovereign Citizen movement is comprised of at least 50% veterans and the movement has a "basic training" program for new members. The KKK also has a "basic training" program run by former vets. The various "Militias" throughout the north east and the south are usually headed by vets. There was even a report by the Feds about various gangs in CA and TX joining the Army and then going AWOL after basic. These "bangers" would then come home to their fellow gangsters bragging about "infiltrating" the Army and getting "trained to kill." This doesn't even cover private citizens who attend classes at places like Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, Tactical Response, Valor Ridge, or DTI; Many of these "paramilitary" by nature.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Olefin

as for artillery and mortars - the chance of hitting a moving tank with an unguided mortar round or artillery round fired from a group of three or four weapons is basically nil

and while the books made up a lot of excuses thats the scenario we have to work with - and its why tank graveyards in T2K are potential supply depots and not just wastes of good tanks like they are here in our world

Any forward observer worth his salt would "prefire" on a tank (call fire on where he thought the tank would be in about 5 seconds). Starting in the late 80's, Fire Direction took an order of magnitude increase in capability (even with WW2 M114s or Vietnam era M102s) due to the invention of laser rangers and GPS.
Even in the aftermath of an Exchange; It would be possible to equip a forward observer with a civilian laser rangefinder (the kind you find at gun shops) and a GPS. These devices used together (if GPS signal is present) will give even an average Forward Observer a pinpoint CEP (1 to 3 meters).

We have the advantage of Hindsight, unlike the Devs. We should use our hindsight to improve the game. The devs believed that M48s and M60s would "soldier on" in mothballs. We know that they did not. This doesn't change the premise of the game; We should strive to "modernize" Twilight with our 20/20 view of the last years depicted in the game.