4th ed T2K

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Now that you point it out, yeah, I see what you mean. I do actually like the artwork but yes, it's quite generic "post-apoc".
There's nothing about it that (so far) makes me specifically think Twilight: 2000 unlike say this: -


or this: -


As for pandering, I see a real problem with it as it ends up creating meaningless tropes - oh look we have the hip, smart, young Millennial kid, oh look we have the angry Hispanic woman, oh look we have the disadvantaged young black man, oh look we have the privileged, wealthy, older white male (who is most likely going to be the badguy, particularly if he has an English accent), oh look we have the same shallow, bland, over-used stereotypes as every other game/TV show/movie/novel out there...

Originally Posted by HoracePeabody

Longtime lurker, just registered to comment on this.

As to the system, I was willing to keep an open mind, but as for tone and content I'm unmoved.

Unlike the others I was rather disappointed by the art samples. Admittedly, I tend to put a lot of emphasis on art, but it seems far more generic post-apocalypse than military...fine for a reprint of FGU's Aftermath, but the military vibe is kinda lost to me. Secondly, as much as I understand the pandering, the modern "angry grrl" stuff seems equally out of place.

I say all of this as a 1st Edition Twilight 2000 player since 1986, so one can chalk it up to my being a politically incorrect geezer (basically true), but I know I'm not alone...nor is my money.

[HoracePeabody]

Precisely, on both counts and very well said.

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Now that you point it out, yeah, I see what you mean. I do actually like the artwork but yes, it's quite generic "post-apoc".
There's nothing about it that (so far) makes me specifically think Twilight: 2000 unlike say this: -


or this: -


As for pandering, I see a real problem with it as it ends up creating meaningless tropes - oh look we have the hip, smart, young Millennial kid, oh look we have the angry Hispanic woman, oh look we have the disadvantaged young black man, oh look we have the privileged, wealthy, older white male (who is most likely going to be the badguy, particularly if he has an English accent), oh look we have the same shallow, bland, over-used stereotypes as every other game/TV show/movie/novel out there...

[sellanraa]

Pandering seems to be used as a pejorative to describe attempts to have something that resonates with people beyond the person who is frustrated about the 'pandering'.

I'm guessing that the people who see all this as pandering are older white males who feel threatened when something isn't completely customized to their needs and myopic worldview. I mean, is it so upsetting that artwork or story possibilities might include minorities or a woman that might be angry about an apocalypse? Should that not be a part of the depiction of the world of T2K?

I'm hoping this re-boot will be successful and bring new people to a cool setting and expand their understanding of Cold War fears - and maybe even bring in some non 'old white dudes'. As many have pointed out, v1 and v2 still exist and will continue to function to the dwindling audience.

I'm only a 40 year old white male, but I'll be honest, I don't even understand what of the art is 'angry grrl' - or even what that means exactly. I'm assuming it's a reference to the riot grrrl movement, so it's cool that some of you are in touch with the feminist punk movements of the 90s and beyond. But, as for the art, some of it was cool, some of it wasn't, but none of it seemed outlandish or out of place within the context of the setting. It just didn't exclusively represent what you apparently want it to I guess. Going through the art again just now, I still count more white men being represented than any other group, but it's just not enough for some of you apparently.

[Raellus]

I quite like the art samples for v4. Yeah, they're a bit generic, but so was v1 and v2 art.

I'll always be nostalgic about v1 art since it was my first exposure to the world of T2K but, really, most of it is not good (no offense to the artists- I'm sure they were doing the best they could). And I don't see much in the original black-and-white interior art that was "specific" to the setting. Most of it could have worked for any contemporary war or post-apoc scenario short of full-on Mad Max or zombies. A lot of it was recognizable as adapted from photos of American troops in Vietnam, which, by the mid-to-late 1980s was already anachronistic. So, if we're comparing v4 with the original art, I don't think the criticism directed at the former is fair.

That said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and everyone is entitled to their own tastes and opinions. I just wanted to share mine.

As for inclusivity... I'm afraid this thread is about to become politicized to toxic levels. Let's make sure we keep any disagreements civil and avoid ad hominem comments.

Personally, I'm all for inclusivity. I can't really understand the mindset of folks who are upset or offended by it.

I guess if you prefer 90% white dudes in your post-apoc art, there's always the v1 artwork.

[sellanraa]

I absolutely adore the v1 supplement covers and much of the pencil work in both editions. It was so fantastic for summoning the spirit of what the game could be.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by sellanraa

Pandering seems to be used as a pejorative to describe attempts to have something that resonates with people beyond the person who is frustrated about the 'pandering'.

I'm guessing that the people who see all this as pandering are older white males who feel threatened when something isn't completely customized to their needs and myopic worldview. I mean, is it so upsetting that artwork or story possibilities might include minorities or a woman that might be angry about an apocalypse? Should that not be a part of the depiction of the world of T2K?

I'm hoping this re-boot will be successful and bring new people to a cool setting and expand their understanding of Cold War fears - and maybe even bring in some non 'old white dudes'. As many have pointed out, v1 and v2 still exist and will continue to function to the dwindling audience.

I'm only a 40 year old white male, but I'll be honest, I don't even understand what of the art is 'angry grrl' - or even what that means exactly. I'm assuming it's a reference to the riot grrrl movement, so it's cool that some of you are in touch with the feminist punk movements of the 90s and beyond. But, as for the art, some of it was cool, some of it wasn't, but none of it seemed outlandish or out of place within the context of the setting. It just didn't exclusively represent what you apparently want it to I guess. Going through the art again just now, I still count more white men being represented than any other group, but it's just not enough for some of you apparently.

For me personally, I didn't feel as though there was any particular pandering in the images for this new version. I wasn't even aware of any angry grrl theme within it.
My comment about pandering was berating pandering for producing shallow, ultimately meaningless themes withing the greater whole. Something can be recognised and represented without it giving off the feel of sucking up to a particular demographic. Again, I'll say that I did not get a feeling of pandering within this new edition with one exception - the rules, they appear to cater to a crowd that wants instant gratification instead of achieving a reward by working towards it.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

....the rules, they appear to cater to a crowd that wants instant gratification instead of achieving a reward by working towards it.

And that right there is why I tend to stick with older game systems. Had to play 5e D&D for the last year or so in the hope the other players would eventually want a change to something less....munchkin. Gave up a few weeks ago and just walked away from the group I've been involved with for a decade as I just couldn't handle the continuing brain damage.
When you're zooming up levels faster than an express elevator, and don't have time to try your new abilities and skills more than once before you get yet another power increase, you know something is gravely broken.

In my nearly 40 years of RPGing experience, systems like that promote cookie cutter characters and roll playing rather than roleplay. It's all about min-maxing JUST to keep up with the weakest of the other characters and give yours a chance to survive the next tavern brawl.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

When you're zooming up levels faster than an express elevator, and don't have time to try your new abilities and skills more than once before you get yet another power increase, you know something is gravely broken.

That sounds like it could me more of a DM'ing issue than a system issue. I'm familiar with 5e, but not with your ex-gaming group. Ultimately, the DM controls character progression- I can speak to this personally as I've done a bit of 5e DM'ing myself. However, if the other players in your group tended towards power gaming, and your DM was pandering to them, it would explain the super-fast level advancement. Whatever the case, I'm sorry that your D&D group stopped being fun. That sucks. I've walked away from a long-running group before, and it was with mixed emotions for sure.

I see your overarching point, though, and I tend to agree. RPG'ing should be more about the journey than the destination.

[HoracePeabody]

Firstly, it wasn't my intention to create a disruption, but the response has been enlightening.

Twilight 2000 is a Cold War product of it's age, one could assume that those who were directly touched by or involved in that Cold War might be the target market. Apparently, the dreaded "old white man" has little place in modern marketing, particularly if the emphasis is on bringing in anyone *other* than "old white dudes". In this regard sellanraa kinda proves the very point and he's not wrong in doing so, the world has changed.

The fault is mine, I shouldn't have de-lurked, nor should I have tossed in a grenade, by being honest. Here's to hoping Twilight 2000 Woketard Edition fails catastrophically and is quickly forgotten.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by HoracePeabody

Firstly, it wasn't my intention to create a disruption, but the response has been enlightening.

Stick around here long enough and SOMEBODY'S going to get upset and butthurt eventually. I think it's rule 1 of the internet, or at least very close to the top of the list!

Attachment 4386

Originally Posted by HoracePeabody

The fault is mine, I shouldn't have de-lurked, nor should I have tossed in a grenade, by being honest. Here's to hoping Twilight 2000 Woketard Edition fails catastrophically and is quickly forgotten.

Honesty is always the best policy. Some will get upset, but facts will always Trump feelings.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by HoracePeabody

Firstly, it wasn't my intention to create a disruption, but the response has been enlightening.

Twilight 2000 is a Cold War product of it's age, one could assume that those who were directly touched by or involved in that Cold War might be the target market. Apparently, the dreaded "old white man" has little place in modern marketing, particularly if the emphasis is on bringing in anyone *other* than "old white dudes". In this regard sellanraa kinda proves the very point and he's not wrong in doing so, the world has changed.

The fault is mine, I shouldn't have de-lurked, nor should I have tossed in a grenade, by being honest. Here's to hoping Twilight 2000 Woketard Edition fails catastrophically and is quickly forgotten.

Well, I'm going to disagree with you on a few points and agree with you on others.
First, this will hopefully be the last commentary I make on these particular subjects.

I don't believe that you shouldn't have de-lurked, everyone and that is to say, every single person is allowed to voice their opinion (anyone inclined to read between my lines will understand this already but I'll spell it out, if Person A finds something disagreeable but Person B finds it agreeable, that does not automatically make Person A right and it does not automatically make Person B wrong - the motivation behind the belief needs to be examined so that everything can be evaluated in context - context, something the modern media and others seem determined to wipe out. Person B may actually be wrong but rarely in life are things completely black or white, there's a hell of a lot of room for shades of grey so the reality is both people may be wrong and equally, they may also be right to a degree. Which is why context is infinitely more important than the emotion behind the beliefs either party espouses).

So, having made my rant, you believe there is a problem with this newest edition, then you definitely should be allowed to say so. You might very well be called upon to justify those beliefs but you should not be made to feel unwelcome in voicing any relevant concerns you may see. We might disagree but we might also actually agree, I'd never know if you don't tell me your opinion.

Second. In regards to pandering, the reason I am completely against pandering is something you touched on - marketing.
Modern companies/organizations pander to a particular demographic, not because they care about that particular demographic - they don't give a damn whether they live or die - they only care about the opportunity to exploit them as a new source of revenue.
My argument against pandering is that it does nothing to help the group being pandered to, it's entire purpose is to con them into buying product from the panderer. Did I say exploitation already?
It's not about the welfare of the group being pandered to, it's only ever about the money they can be convinced to part with.
Snakeoil by any other name.

[langdolin]

I have played all three versions of this game and I have enjoyed them all. We have had to make and use house rules for all three. No big deal. I am excited and hopeful. I plan on supporting this edition as I did the third and the second and the first. Probably won’t have a play group, but will buy into the Kickstarter.
So. Bring it already.
If you guys need play testers. Drop me line.

[Tegyrius]

I wish Scott Glancy was still posting here, because I think he's the only active industry professional registered on the board and I'd dearly love to see his analysis of this. Alas, it looks like he hasn't visited us for five years.

I own several Free League products, though life events over the past couple of years have left me without a local gaming group with which to test-drive them. Having read Coriolis, Tales From the Loop, Symbaroum, Forbidden Lands, and Alien, I am fairly confident that whatever we get will have first-rate production values. The writing in those products is generally solid, though there are some idiosyncrasies that I suspect result from ESL authors or editors. I will also note that their tagline for 4th Edition hints at their expertise in alternate-history settings. Tales From the Loop's tagline is "Roleplaying in the '80s That Never Was," while for 4th Edition, they've chosen "Roleplaying in the World War III That Never Was." I do not believe that was accidental, nor that it was lazy writing.

Having not actually played with any of those systems enough to find the edges of coherence, I can't provide detailed analysis as to their suitability for T2k. Generally speaking, though, I will note that with the exception of the Old School Renaissance movement, I am seeing current game design trends going for a lot more fast play over rigorous simulations. I don't think this is a reaction to the stereotype of younger gamers having short attention spans or expecting to be spoon-fed material (and seriously, guys, why not just complain about Millennials killing station wagons and fax machines while you're at it?). Rather, I believe it's an acknowledgement that the core market for tabletop RPGs is middle-aged adults whose work and family responsibilities don't leave them the time for rigorous prep, whose gaming time is rare and precious, and who want the mechanics to not bog down the progression of the story when they do get to play. So while I am skeptical about whether Free League's house system will have the right tone for Twilight: 2000, I embrace the intent and will give them the benefit of the doubt.

As far as the complaints about representation that I saw upthread - if you have to complain about representation, I'm not sure anything you read on a gaming forum will change your mind. But people who are not middle-aged white dudes will be more likely to get into the hobby, and to stay in the hobby, and to keep supporting the hobby with their money if they see characters in the art, writing, and story options who are like themselves. In a hobby that was always a tiny niche, and which (apart from D&D5) is facing ever-increasing challenges from other entertainment media, we need all the new blood we can get. If you don't want women gamers, gamers of color, LGBTQIA+ gamers, or other gamers who aren't exactly like you at your table, I pity you, because I've been playing with those folks since Vampire: The Masquerade 1e in the early '90s, and most of the best roleplayers at my tables and LARPs have not been middle-aged white dudes. So if Free League wants to insert representation into 4th Edition, I will quite happily stand there and hand them the representation insertion tool of their choice while giggling at your whines of outrage.

- C.

[Targan]

Due to the system they're using, I have zero interest in the new edition for me personally. But I won't be trash-talking it on social media. I'm sure some groups will enjoy the new edition, and I hope it's a rip-roaring success.

[Olefin]

I am hoping the new game will be quite a success. They are still open to having new V1 and V2.2 stuff released as well as long as its pdf's and I have been talking to them too about working with them on new releases for V4 or modifying what I have published to take it from V2.2 canon to V4 canon (but most likely modified to fit their version of the timeline).

It is great to see that the timeline will be one that we will be mostly familiar with (with some changes of course). Of course the real proof will be in the mechanics of the V4 edition which we will all have to see what they will be like once its finally released.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Targan

Due to the system they're using, I have zero interest in the new edition for me personally.

And that's perfectly fine. You are not required to like it. There are no edition police ready to break down your door and take away your Harnmaster conversion.

I still refuse to have anything to do with Shadowrun post-3e, or Vampire 5e, or L5R 5e, because the older editions work fine for my purposes and the newer ones have gone in directions that are not to my tastes. For that matter, I'm probably never going to touch the Storypath system that Onyx Path has bolted onto the Trinity Continuum reboot, despite my own involvement with the Aeon line. But I also recognize that I am not the target market for everything, and I am glad that those properties are still making money and bringing together active fan communities.

It would be healthy, I think, to apply the same logic to Free League's T2k, as you are doing. Those groups who like it? They're going to be looking for more material. Some of them will find the old 1e modules, which will lead them to the earlier editions. Heck, some of them will probably find Paul's site and buy PDF or print-on-demand copies of the 2.2 rules so they can play with all the equipment he has statted.

- C.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Having not actually played with any of those systems enough to find the edges of coherence, I can't provide detailed analysis as to their suitability for T2k. Generally speaking, though, I will note that with the exception of the Old School Renaissance movement, I am seeing current game design trends going for a lot more fast play over rigorous simulations. I don't think this is a reaction to the stereotype of younger gamers having short attention spans or expecting to be spoon-fed material (and seriously, guys, why not just complain about Millennials killing station wagons and fax machines while you're at it?). Rather, I believe it's an acknowledgement that the core market for tabletop RPGs is middle-aged adults whose work and family responsibilities don't leave them the time for rigorous prep, whose gaming time is rare and precious, and who want the mechanics to not bog down the progression of the story when they do get to play. So while I am skeptical about whether Free League's house system will have the right tone for Twilight: 2000, I embrace the intent and will give them the benefit of the doubt.

That's a good point re target market. I hadn't considered that simplified rule sets could be targeted just as much towards busy middle aged folks as at the low-attention-span younger crowd. That makes a lot of sense. I, for one, don't have hours to devote to game prep and rules parsing. Simple can easily be made more complex. In my experience, it's more difficult to do the reverse.

And I agree wholeheartedly re your points about diversity and representation. The more the better. Just because there might be an image of a trans warrior, for example, in the game art doesn't mean you have to play one. That people have a problem with minority representation in gaming in 2020 makes me sad.

Despite the surge in popularity of D&D recently, tabletop RPG'ing is still a pretty geeky subculture. Being as many "geeks" weren't necessarily the most popular kids growing up, it's surprising how intolerant and exlusionary some gamers can be of the other. I hope that we are seeing a sea change now.

[Olefin]

Twilight 2000 has never been a game that had an issue with minority representation - look at the original art that was on the boxed set and the original modules - blacks, whites, Latinos and women who were obviously armored and infantry members. Considering the time period when it was released the game has always been about a full representation of the ethnicities, genders, and races that made up a typical NATO unit of wartorn 2000.

Heck look at the entry under Body Combat Damage - Bobbi Lee kicking a guy in the head and breaking his neck - and Bobbi Lee is a woman - and this in a game that was released in 1984.

Thus the 4th edition embracing that is a continuation of what the game has always been about - i.e. you can play or be anyone as part of a campaign.

[Raellus]

I'm really digging the art.

https://mailchi.mp/b66279b6b260/alie...fYtvXz9n3zoUB4

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Interesting to see that Free League has a forum devoted to T2k but more so for some of the comments.
It appears that the single voice of dislike of 4th edition that has been seen here has been, shall we say, exaggerated, into a "group of old guard wishing for 4th editions downfall".

[Cypher]

Totally agree Olefin, this has been one of the most refreshing (admittedly small) rpg communities in this regard, and like you said, a diverse cast has always been represented in T2k (like the v2 cover, for example). It's one of the things that (subconsciously I think) made it stand out for me all those years ago as opposed to classic d&d, for example.

Some gaming communities have seen a vocal minority responding extremely negatively to the idea of a cast of characters with more diversity - see the reaction to Games Workshop's recent novel series announcement with a black space marine on the cover :eyeroll:

Back to 4th Ed, I quite like the art direction we've seen so far, it's got a reasonable amount of grit.

As I've said over on the FL forums, my big hope is for a set of settlement building and expanding rules, with appropriate tweaks for different biomes around the world as the setting expands.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Now Tegyrius* will know better than me so if wants to correct me, no problem, but I'm pretty sure 3rd Ed. had rules for scavenging materials and building various structures. I have a vague recollection of it because at the time I thought it was similar (in a good way) to the same rules in the Aftermath RPG.
They may be suitable for converting to 4th Ed. perhaps?

* and any of the other forum members who play 3rd Ed.