4th ed T2K

[Tegyrius]

I wish Scott Glancy was still posting here, because I think he's the only active industry professional registered on the board and I'd dearly love to see his analysis of this. Alas, it looks like he hasn't visited us for five years.

I own several Free League products, though life events over the past couple of years have left me without a local gaming group with which to test-drive them. Having read Coriolis, Tales From the Loop, Symbaroum, Forbidden Lands, and Alien, I am fairly confident that whatever we get will have first-rate production values. The writing in those products is generally solid, though there are some idiosyncrasies that I suspect result from ESL authors or editors. I will also note that their tagline for 4th Edition hints at their expertise in alternate-history settings. Tales From the Loop's tagline is "Roleplaying in the '80s That Never Was," while for 4th Edition, they've chosen "Roleplaying in the World War III That Never Was." I do not believe that was accidental, nor that it was lazy writing.

Having not actually played with any of those systems enough to find the edges of coherence, I can't provide detailed analysis as to their suitability for T2k. Generally speaking, though, I will note that with the exception of the Old School Renaissance movement, I am seeing current game design trends going for a lot more fast play over rigorous simulations. I don't think this is a reaction to the stereotype of younger gamers having short attention spans or expecting to be spoon-fed material (and seriously, guys, why not just complain about Millennials killing station wagons and fax machines while you're at it?). Rather, I believe it's an acknowledgement that the core market for tabletop RPGs is middle-aged adults whose work and family responsibilities don't leave them the time for rigorous prep, whose gaming time is rare and precious, and who want the mechanics to not bog down the progression of the story when they do get to play. So while I am skeptical about whether Free League's house system will have the right tone for Twilight: 2000, I embrace the intent and will give them the benefit of the doubt.

As far as the complaints about representation that I saw upthread - if you have to complain about representation, I'm not sure anything you read on a gaming forum will change your mind. But people who are not middle-aged white dudes will be more likely to get into the hobby, and to stay in the hobby, and to keep supporting the hobby with their money if they see characters in the art, writing, and story options who are like themselves. In a hobby that was always a tiny niche, and which (apart from D&D5) is facing ever-increasing challenges from other entertainment media, we need all the new blood we can get. If you don't want women gamers, gamers of color, LGBTQIA+ gamers, or other gamers who aren't exactly like you at your table, I pity you, because I've been playing with those folks since Vampire: The Masquerade 1e in the early '90s, and most of the best roleplayers at my tables and LARPs have not been middle-aged white dudes. So if Free League wants to insert representation into 4th Edition, I will quite happily stand there and hand them the representation insertion tool of their choice while giggling at your whines of outrage.

- C.

[Targan]

Due to the system they're using, I have zero interest in the new edition for me personally. But I won't be trash-talking it on social media. I'm sure some groups will enjoy the new edition, and I hope it's a rip-roaring success.

[Olefin]

I am hoping the new game will be quite a success. They are still open to having new V1 and V2.2 stuff released as well as long as its pdf's and I have been talking to them too about working with them on new releases for V4 or modifying what I have published to take it from V2.2 canon to V4 canon (but most likely modified to fit their version of the timeline).

It is great to see that the timeline will be one that we will be mostly familiar with (with some changes of course). Of course the real proof will be in the mechanics of the V4 edition which we will all have to see what they will be like once its finally released.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Targan

Due to the system they're using, I have zero interest in the new edition for me personally.

And that's perfectly fine. You are not required to like it. There are no edition police ready to break down your door and take away your Harnmaster conversion.

I still refuse to have anything to do with Shadowrun post-3e, or Vampire 5e, or L5R 5e, because the older editions work fine for my purposes and the newer ones have gone in directions that are not to my tastes. For that matter, I'm probably never going to touch the Storypath system that Onyx Path has bolted onto the Trinity Continuum reboot, despite my own involvement with the Aeon line. But I also recognize that I am not the target market for everything, and I am glad that those properties are still making money and bringing together active fan communities.

It would be healthy, I think, to apply the same logic to Free League's T2k, as you are doing. Those groups who like it? They're going to be looking for more material. Some of them will find the old 1e modules, which will lead them to the earlier editions. Heck, some of them will probably find Paul's site and buy PDF or print-on-demand copies of the 2.2 rules so they can play with all the equipment he has statted.

- C.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Having not actually played with any of those systems enough to find the edges of coherence, I can't provide detailed analysis as to their suitability for T2k. Generally speaking, though, I will note that with the exception of the Old School Renaissance movement, I am seeing current game design trends going for a lot more fast play over rigorous simulations. I don't think this is a reaction to the stereotype of younger gamers having short attention spans or expecting to be spoon-fed material (and seriously, guys, why not just complain about Millennials killing station wagons and fax machines while you're at it?). Rather, I believe it's an acknowledgement that the core market for tabletop RPGs is middle-aged adults whose work and family responsibilities don't leave them the time for rigorous prep, whose gaming time is rare and precious, and who want the mechanics to not bog down the progression of the story when they do get to play. So while I am skeptical about whether Free League's house system will have the right tone for Twilight: 2000, I embrace the intent and will give them the benefit of the doubt.

That's a good point re target market. I hadn't considered that simplified rule sets could be targeted just as much towards busy middle aged folks as at the low-attention-span younger crowd. That makes a lot of sense. I, for one, don't have hours to devote to game prep and rules parsing. Simple can easily be made more complex. In my experience, it's more difficult to do the reverse.

And I agree wholeheartedly re your points about diversity and representation. The more the better. Just because there might be an image of a trans warrior, for example, in the game art doesn't mean you have to play one. That people have a problem with minority representation in gaming in 2020 makes me sad.

Despite the surge in popularity of D&D recently, tabletop RPG'ing is still a pretty geeky subculture. Being as many "geeks" weren't necessarily the most popular kids growing up, it's surprising how intolerant and exlusionary some gamers can be of the other. I hope that we are seeing a sea change now.

[Olefin]

Twilight 2000 has never been a game that had an issue with minority representation - look at the original art that was on the boxed set and the original modules - blacks, whites, Latinos and women who were obviously armored and infantry members. Considering the time period when it was released the game has always been about a full representation of the ethnicities, genders, and races that made up a typical NATO unit of wartorn 2000.

Heck look at the entry under Body Combat Damage - Bobbi Lee kicking a guy in the head and breaking his neck - and Bobbi Lee is a woman - and this in a game that was released in 1984.

Thus the 4th edition embracing that is a continuation of what the game has always been about - i.e. you can play or be anyone as part of a campaign.

[Raellus]

I'm really digging the art.

https://mailchi.mp/b66279b6b260/alie...fYtvXz9n3zoUB4

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Interesting to see that Free League has a forum devoted to T2k but more so for some of the comments.
It appears that the single voice of dislike of 4th edition that has been seen here has been, shall we say, exaggerated, into a "group of old guard wishing for 4th editions downfall".

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

It appears that the single voice of dislike of 4th edition that has been seen here has been, shall we say, exaggerated, into a "group of old guard wishing for 4th editions downfall".

How can there be an informed dislike of something no one has yet seen? I think the pre-judging of a yet-to-be-seen product, based on principle, or inferences based on Free League's existing product, or whatever, probably comes across to a lot of folks as a "group of old guard wishing for 4th edition's downfall".

I'm a little cynical, a little skeptical, but I'm going to give it a chance before I make up my mind one way or the other.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I find myself actually getting a little bit more excited for the new edition as the weeks roll by. As mentioned elsewhere, the Year Zero rules are not my particular cup of tea but I am very interested in seeing what other material Free League might produce for the Twilight setting.
So while I wouldn't be inclined to use the rules, I'd have no particular objection to buying the books and supporting the new edition.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Interesting to see that Free League has a forum devoted to T2k but more so for some of the comments.
It appears that the single voice of dislike of 4th edition that has been seen here has been, shall we say, exaggerated, into a "group of old guard wishing for 4th editions downfall".

Also interesting to see that in the update Rae linked, they pointed to the Facebook group but not to this forum.

Originally Posted by Raellus

How can there be an informed dislike of something no one has yet seen?

"All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again."

- C.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

There's a few facebook sites for T2k, some more welcoming than others, which one did they choose?

As for not making any connection to this specific site... well... that's a decision that's open to interpretation and ripe for misinterpretation. Considering the number of published official articles, books etc. etc. that have come from certain members of this forum, I'd like to think that not mentioning this forum was just a simple oversight.

[Cypher]

Totally agree Olefin, this has been one of the most refreshing (admittedly small) rpg communities in this regard, and like you said, a diverse cast has always been represented in T2k (like the v2 cover, for example). It's one of the things that (subconsciously I think) made it stand out for me all those years ago as opposed to classic d&d, for example.

Some gaming communities have seen a vocal minority responding extremely negatively to the idea of a cast of characters with more diversity - see the reaction to Games Workshop's recent novel series announcement with a black space marine on the cover :eyeroll:

Back to 4th Ed, I quite like the art direction we've seen so far, it's got a reasonable amount of grit.

As I've said over on the FL forums, my big hope is for a set of settlement building and expanding rules, with appropriate tweaks for different biomes around the world as the setting expands.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Now Tegyrius* will know better than me so if wants to correct me, no problem, but I'm pretty sure 3rd Ed. had rules for scavenging materials and building various structures. I have a vague recollection of it because at the time I thought it was similar (in a good way) to the same rules in the Aftermath RPG.
They may be suitable for converting to 4th Ed. perhaps?

* and any of the other forum members who play 3rd Ed.