4th ed T2K

[Silent Hunter UK]

It's funny, because there is a place called Sealand off the British coast...

[Olefin]

So the UK sends everything basically to fight and doesnt even leave the Territorial units behind? What the heck? That makes basically no sense at all - there is no way the UK commits everything and basically leaves themsevles bare naked against the Soviets - and reading Reset this isnt just the 5th that gets destroyed - its basically most of NATO

Three Polish Corps, one UK, one US, one German, one Netherlands, one Belgian - ALL of them get overrun and are "running for the woods"? What the heck - so basically the Soviets win the war and NATO is finished? This in a war with the active participation on the NATO side of multiple former Warsaw Pact nations and France?

So we are to believe the Soviets destroy EIGHT FULL CORPS????

Sorry when exactly did the Soviet Army become an unstoppable juggernaut against basically the entire armies of Western Europe, the US, and Central and Eastern Europe?

And what happened to all the reinforcements that were being sent - that many men would have rebuilt back to full strength every unit in the US Army that got deployed to Europe- are they saying that ALL OF THEM died on the way over?

[Olefin]

Eight full Corps destroyed by the Soviets in RESET? By what - did the Soviets somehow ally with HG Wells Martians? Invent tank armor that cannot be penetrated by any modern weapon? This isnt two Corps taking it on the chin, one running for its life and another cut off, with most of it holding on in Poland while the 5th gets wiped out.

This is the heart of NATO wiped out and the survivors running for the hills. Basically they have the Soviets winning the war.

Sorry but if this is their so called history I will stick with V1 and V2.2.

[Olefin]

and I would like to actually give my honest real opinions of the back story, the war, the end of the war and the Soviets somehow being an unbeatable force but I would have to violate every forum guideline to give an honest real opinion

So instead

IT SUCKS

[Olefin]

Oh and no mention of Turkey, Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc.. - i.e. were they all too busy doing something else for three years?

And the French join in the fun, get nuked like crazy and dont retaliate??? Sure what the hell its not like they care about Paris and Northern France

[Olefin]

and ignoring the background and details and timeline can be done - but then it makes 4th edition COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY WORTHLESS for those who want to do a campaign who arent famliar with the V1 and V2.2

This is game writing 101 they are ignoring - its fine and dandy if you want to write a game that you play for a couple of nights and move on - but sucks big time if you want to do a campaign - and frankly this spits in the face of the long time players of this game

[Jason Weiser]

Ok, Olefin. I get it. We're all rather invested in this and have deep concerns...can you let someone else respond to your posts?

[FPSlover]

Originally Posted by Olefin

So the UK sends everything basically to fight and doesnt even leave the Territorial units behind? What the heck? That makes basically no sense at all - there is no way the UK commits everything and basically leaves themsevles bare naked against the Soviets - and reading Reset this isnt just the 5th that gets destroyed - its basically most of NATO

Three Polish Corps, one UK, one US, one German, one Netherlands, one Belgian - ALL of them get overrun and are "running for the woods"? What the heck - so basically the Soviets win the war and NATO is finished? This in a war with the active participation on the NATO side of multiple former Warsaw Pact nations and France?

So we are to believe the Soviets destroy EIGHT FULL CORPS????

The only possible way London could justify having most of the TA deploy is if they recreated the Home Guard or something equally as mad to take over defense at home. Which again, is not their job, as it's the TA's job to conduct home defense. Even then, at least SOME (call it at least 25% and more probably 30%) of the TA would have to remain at home so as to properly train said units and war replacements.

As for the eight Corps', that's anywhere from 240,000 men to 400,000 men (if I knew the exact corps', I could probably track down the exact numbers). Those losses would be among the bloodiest battles in history, and that's just NATO casualties. If upwards of 400,000 NATO lost their lives, I'd hate to see Soviet casualties. They almost certainly are in much excess of NATO.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by FPSlover

The only possible way London could justify having most of the TA deploy is if they recreated the Home Guard or something equally as mad to take over defense at home. Which again, is not their job, as it's the TA's job to conduct home defense. Even then, at least SOME (call it at least 25% and more probably 30%) of the TA would have to remain at home so as to properly train said units and war replacements.

There are often misconceptions about the TA's role in T2K. That may be because the original V1 British order of battle was a complete work of fiction in that it completely ignored the TA and appeared to have been written by someone who had zero knowledge of their role / structure (IRL the TA would have formed the bulk of the 2nd UK Division and would have also rounded out other Divisions in the same way that US National Guard Brigades rounded out Regular Divisions). Or it may be because at the end of the Cold War the TA's role changed so it can sometimes take a bit of digging to get to the Cold War period.

The TA in this period was split. Some units did have a home defence role, but others were tasked with reinforcing BAOR. LouieD is more of an authority on this than I am and can correct me if I'm wrong but off the top of my head, the split was something like 75% to BAOR vs 25% UK Home defence (both of those figures include support as well as combat units).

From memory there were something like 14 TA Infantry Battalions and 2/3 Light Recon Regiments (each equivalent to a Battalion and equipped with Land Rovers) allocated to home defence - roughly one per civil defence area plus a couple of spares. There would have probably also one Regular Brigade tasked to home defence, probably based in the London area and mostly made up of Guards Battalions. The TA have no training role - that would have been down to the Regular Army.

Also, there was an attempt to recreate the Home Guard in the early 1980's - it was called the Home Service Force, and numbered approx 5000 men in approx 50 Platoons across the UK at its peak.

As some of you know in the past I've spent many hours working on a realistic (and non canon) T2K timeline for the UK. I've read the new timeline (briefly) and the section on the UK. I find the idea of a Soviet invasion of the UK fanciful and will be ignoring it going forward but I do not think it's Alien Space Bats territory. If I really had to rationalise it I'd posit it the same way as Division Cuba in V1 - a Division sized unit (7th Guards Air Assault according to the UK write up) secures a toehold, HMG is unable to assemble the forces to kerb stomp them, and the Soviets end up securing a town (or maybe a County) - it's basically the Group of Soviet Forces England in the V1 SGUK on a larger scale.

Other than that, while I appreciate it's only a few paragraphs, I don't think they've done too bad a job with the UK setting. There's room for improvement for sure (even with no help from the mainland I rather doubt the IRA would be able to hold their own against the RUC and the UDR without overt military support from the Irish Republic) but it's certainly an improvement on the V1 Survivor's Guide to the UK (although that is admittedly a pretty low bar - at least they didn't have the Queen abdicating). The Cornish Independence angle is plausible.

[FPSlover]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

The TA in this period was split. Some units did have a home defence role, but others were tasked with reinforcing BAOR. LouieD is more of an authority on this than I am and can correct me if I'm wrong but off the top of my head, the split was something like 75% to BAOR vs 25% UK Home defence (both of those figures include support as well as combat units).

From memory there were something like 14 TA Infantry Battalions and 2/3 Light Recon Regiments (each equivalent to a Battalion and equipped with Land Rovers) allocated to home defence - roughly one per civil defence area plus a couple of spares. There would have probably also one Regular Brigade tasked to home defence, probably based in the London area and mostly made up of Guards Battalions. The TA have no training role - that would have been down to the Regular Army.

Also, there was an attempt to recreate the Home Guard in the early 1980's - it was called the Home Service Force, and numbered approx 5000 men in approx 50 Platoons across the UK at its peak.

As some of you know in the past I've spent many hours working on a realistic (and non canon) T2K timeline for the UK. I've read the new timeline (briefly) and the section on the UK. I find the idea of a Soviet invasion of the UK fanciful and will be ignoring it going forward but I do not think it's Alien Space Bats territory. If I really had to rationalise it I'd posit it the same way as Division Cuba in V1 - a Division sized unit (7th Guards Air Assault according to the UK write up) secures a toehold, HMG is unable to assemble the forces to kerb stomp them, and the Soviets end up securing a town (or maybe a County) - it's basically the Group of Soviet Forces England in the V1 SGUK on a larger scale.

Other than that, while I appreciate it's only a few paragraphs, I don't think they've done too bad a job with the UK setting. There's room for improvement for sure (even with no help from the mainland I rather doubt the IRA would be able to hold their own against the RUC and the UDR without overt military support from the Irish Republic) but it's certainly an improvement on the V1 Survivor's Guide to the UK (although that is admittedly a pretty low bar - at least they didn't have the Queen abdicating). The Cornish Independence angle is plausible.

And your post is why I shouldn't reply to someone without collecting my thoughts and half asleep. I was well aware of the TA's role in the BAOR, albeit given the war, most would have long since called up to fill it and other places. Indeed, from what I can gather, most would have been gone and mobilized within the first few months of the war being made official.

As for the HSF, I did not know that and I suppose further research will be needed on that front. 5,000 men dispersed across the country would have been hard pressed to stop any invasion. Even the one you imagined. Does it say anywhere if they expanded it during the war period?

As your your scenario in particular, I agree with it. Albeit it is rather odd sacrificing such an elite division for a task that is almost certainly suicidal. Sure, they may not die immediately, but it will only take time for remaining British units in country to converge and destroy them. And for what in the grand scheme of things? Chaos? Even landing in NATO's rear would have produced a slightly higher survival rate (and caused more damage/loss of life) than landing them in the UK.

It is good to hear at least that Operation Armageddon was not implemented by the Irish government. Although that might actually make sense when compared to what I've read on here and elsewhere. With fanciful landings of Soviets in the UK, a broken US and armies destroyed left, right and center, a Irish invasion of Northern Ireland seems like nothing in comparison. As it stands though, that did not happen and we are left with an unusual situation. The IRA (at least as of the late troubles) were not meant to go toe-to-toe or even close with British units in the UK. If they had tried, they would have been destroyed.

[Raellus]

Although I too have some issues with the new backstory, I don't think hyperbole and name-calling is helpful or even merited. This is an Alpha, and if enough folks offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of certain problematic aspects of the project, they might get fixed.

IMHO, some folks are reading a bit much into the bit of the backstory regarding the failure of NATO's Operation Reset offensive (unless I'm missing a more detailed description of said op somewhere else in the Alpha). It seems to me that the authors were deliberately vague in order to leave room for Ref interpretation. One is free to interpret it as "NATO is effectively destroyed and running for the hills", OR one can interpret it more conservatively (closer to what happens to the Summer 2000 offensive described in v's 1 & 2).

Also, I think some people miss the entire point of the game- that player parties are supposed to be cut off and on their own. T2k is not a wargame. It's a military ROLE PLAYING GAME.

-

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Also, I think some people miss the entire point of the game- that player parties are supposed to be cut off and on their own. T2k is not a wargame. It's a military ROLE PLAYING GAME.

It's almost as if you've read the game, Rae:

Originally Posted by Twilight: 2000 Play Manual (1st Edition)

Twilight: 2000 is Game Designers' Workshop's trademark for its role-playing game of survival in a devastated world.

A character is more than a battle rifle and an 18 on a random vehicle table. A story is more than a set of combat results. The foremost objective of any RPG setting design process should be an interesting environment in which the player characters have the freedom to act and the capability to evoke meaningful change on some scale.

- C.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

This is an Alpha, and if enough folks offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of certain problematic aspects of the project, they might get fixed

Didn't happen when they were actually asking for input. Played around the edges a bit and threw some lace on to pretty it up....

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Although I too have some issues with the new backstory, I don't think hyperbole and name-calling is helpful or even merited. This is an Alpha, and if enough folks offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of certain problematic aspects of the project, they might get fixed.

IMHO, some folks are reading a bit much into the bit of the backstory regarding the failure of NATO's Operation Reset offensive (unless I'm missing a more detailed description of said op somewhere else in the Alpha). It seems to me that the authors were deliberately vague in order to leave room for Ref interpretation. One is free to interpret it as "NATO is effectively destroyed and running for the hills", OR one can interpret it more conservatively (closer to what happens to the Summer 2000 offensive described in v's 1 & 2).

Also, I think some people miss the entire point of the game- that player parties are supposed to be cut off and on their own. T2k is not a wargame. It's a military ROLE PLAYING GAME.

-

It specifically says that all the NATO units assigned to RESET were overrun and the troops running for the hills.

They assigned EIGHT FULL CORPS to RESET - this isnt just the 5th Division - this is every division that was assigned in the SECRET document

So that means 3 Polish Corps, One German, One British, One Belgian, One US and One Netherlands Corps all overrun and destroyed

SOVIETS UBER ALLES

I read the entire Alpha player manual for the background and the war.

So unless you are a Soviet Fan Boy the 4th edition isnt for you as far as timeline and background

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Although I too have some issues with the new backstory, I don't think hyperbole and name-calling is helpful or even merited. This is an Alpha, and if enough folks offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of certain problematic aspects of the project, they might get fixed.

IMHO, some folks are reading a bit much into the bit of the backstory regarding the failure of NATO's Operation Reset offensive (unless I'm missing a more detailed description of said op somewhere else in the Alpha). It seems to me that the authors were deliberately vague in order to leave room for Ref interpretation. One is free to interpret it as "NATO is effectively destroyed and running for the hills", OR one can interpret it more conservatively (closer to what happens to the Summer 2000 offensive described in v's 1 & 2).

Also, I think some people miss the entire point of the game- that player parties are supposed to be cut off and on their own. T2k is not a wargame. It's a military ROLE PLAYING GAME.

-

What part of “all the divisions involved in Reset were overrun and their survivors running for the woods” was unclear? That’s eight Corps including the entire Polish Army overrun and the survivors running for their lives. I have read a lot of military history and that pretty much is a destroyed NATO and Soviets Uber Alles situation - that is not in any way close to V1 or V2.2 - we aren’t just talking the 5th here - we are talking every division in the Secret handout.

And this is very late in the war - this isn’t a situation like where units were overrun in Korea in V1 - this is the last gasp the last effort - ie there isn’t anyone left to stop the Soviets

Sorry but that is utter BS - and one other big question - where are the hundreds of thousands of reinforcements that the US put together - are you telling me the Soviets killed them all or most of them in the big naval battle? Because there isn’t a lot of fighting between the supposed huge naval battle and Reset

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by FPSlover

And your post is why I shouldn't reply to someone without collecting my thoughts and half asleep. I was well aware of the TA's role in the BAOR, albeit given the war, most would have long since called up to fill it and other places. Indeed, from what I can gather, most would have been gone and mobilized within the first few months of the war being made official.

Yeah, when I researched the subject for my alternative Survivor's Guide it seemed pretty likely that trying to cover home defence commitments would be challenging, especially if you presume that some of the home defence Battalions would be either in or close to nuclear targets so may have been vaporised.

Originally Posted by FPSlover

As for the HSF, I did not know that and I suppose further research will be needed on that front. 5,000 men dispersed across the country would have been hard pressed to stop any invasion. Even the one you imagined. Does it say anywhere if they expanded it during the war period?

I haven't had a chance to study V4 in detail but they seem to prefer a big picture, broad strokes style, so I'd be surprised if there's a specific reference to the HSF being expanded - it's probably something that can be left to an individual to decide. I'd agree that the HSF would be unlikely to make much impact on a Soviet invasion.

Originally Posted by FPSlover

As your your scenario in particular, I agree with it. Albeit it is rather odd sacrificing such an elite division for a task that is almost certainly suicidal. Sure, they may not die immediately, but it will only take time for remaining British units in country to converge and destroy them. And for what in the grand scheme of things? Chaos? Even landing in NATO's rear would have produced a slightly higher survival rate (and caused more damage/loss of life) than landing them in the UK.

I'd agree with all of that. A Soviet invasion makes zero sense to me (other than as a plot device to potentially create interesting adventures in the UK. Again, I find myself drawn to comparisons with the original Group of Soviet Forces England)

Originally Posted by FPSlover

It is good to hear at least that Operation Armageddon was not implemented by the Irish government. Although that might actually make sense when compared to what I've read on here and elsewhere. With fanciful landings of Soviets in the UK, a broken US and armies destroyed left, right and center, a Irish invasion of Northern Ireland seems like nothing in comparison. As it stands though, that did not happen and we are left with an unusual situation. The IRA (at least as of the late troubles) were not meant to go toe-to-toe or even close with British units in the UK. If they had tried, they would have been destroyed.

V4 hints at some Irish Republic support for the IRA but doesn't go into detail as to what that support might entail. Again, if I had to posit a scenario, I'd say there are reports in the South of Loyalist atrocities (real or imaginary) and a local Irish Army commander unilaterally decides to intervene and crosses the border. Once that genie is out of the bottle I don't see it getting put back in. The best comparison I can think of would be the Balkans in the 1990's. When I wrote my non canon V1 stuff I compared Derry to Stalingrad.

I do wonder if a UK Sourcebook might be in the pipeline for later.

[Louied]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

There are often misconceptions about the TA's role in T2K. That may be because the original V1 British order of battle was a complete work of fiction in that it completely ignored the TA and appeared to have been written by someone who had zero knowledge of their role / structure (IRL the TA would have formed the bulk of the 2nd UK Division and would have also rounded out other Divisions in the same way that US National Guard Brigades rounded out Regular Divisions). Or it may be because at the end of the Cold War the TA's role changed so it can sometimes take a bit of digging to get to the Cold War period.

The TA in this period was split. Some units did have a home defence role, but others were tasked with reinforcing BAOR. LouieD is more of an authority on this than I am and can correct me if I'm wrong but off the top of my head, the split was something like 75% to BAOR vs 25% UK Home defence (both of those figures include support as well as combat units).

From memory there were something like 14 TA Infantry Battalions and 2/3 Light Recon Regiments (each equivalent to a Battalion and equipped with Land Rovers) allocated to home defence - roughly one per civil defence area plus a couple of spares. There would have probably also one Regular Brigade tasked to home defence, probably based in the London area and mostly made up of Guards Battalions. The TA have no training role - that would have been down to the Regular Army.

Also, there was an attempt to recreate the Home Guard in the early 1980's - it was called the Home Service Force, and numbered approx 5000 men in approx 50 Platoons across the UK at its peak.

As some of you know in the past I've spent many hours working on a realistic (and non canon) T2K timeline for the UK. I've read the new timeline (briefly) and the section on the UK. I find the idea of a Soviet invasion of the UK fanciful and will be ignoring it going forward but I do not think it's Alien Space Bats territory. If I really had to rationalise it I'd posit it the same way as Division Cuba in V1 - a Division sized unit (7th Guards Air Assault according to the UK write up) secures a toehold, HMG is unable to assemble the forces to kerb stomp them, and the Soviets end up securing a town (or maybe a County) - it's basically the Group of Soviet Forces England in the V1 SGUK on a larger scale.

Other than that, while I appreciate it's only a few paragraphs, I don't think they've done too bad a job with the UK setting. There's room for improvement for sure (even with no help from the mainland I rather doubt the IRA would be able to hold their own against the RUC and the UDR without overt military support from the Irish Republic) but it's certainly an improvement on the V1 Survivor's Guide to the UK (although that is admittedly a pretty low bar - at least they didn't have the Queen abdicating). The Cornish Independence angle is plausible.

Rainbow is spot on, the bulk (for instance 26 of the 40 TA Inf Bns had NATO commitments) of the TA would be going across the Channel on TTW. Plans were very detailed (I have even found documents in the NA showing that plans were being drawn up in the late 1980's to blow the Channel Tunnels which had just started being built !). My co-authors and myself are currently engaged in fleshing out UKLF, besides the 47 HSF Coys, there were 175 HD Res Coys, 14 TA Bns, and 17 Regular Bns committed to Home Defence. Not to mention the whole 7,000 plus UDR would be placed on active service in NI......

If anyone needs more detail I will start a new thread (and I'll try to be short....)

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by Olefin

So the UK sends everything basically to fight and doesnt even leave the Territorial units behind? What the heck? That makes basically no sense at all - there is no way the UK commits everything and basically leaves themsevles bare naked against the Soviets

From the Alpha, chapter "World at War", UK segment:
"EXCERPT"

They seem to have sent all Territorial Forces and relaunched the Home Guard to fill that role. And it seems that the last remnants of them charged into the Soviet MGs at Trafalgar Square.

[FPSlover]

Originally Posted by Lurken

From the Alpha, chapter "World at War", UK segment:
"EXCERPT"

They seem to have sent all Territorial Forces and relaunched the Home Guard to fill that role. And it seems that the last remnants of them charged into the Soviet MGs at Trafalgar Square.

Huh, so my guess was right. That is... damn odd. I can get some being sent, at least as volunteers or drafts to increase manpower during the late part of the war, but the entire thing? And reviving the Home Guard (a group that, in all honesty, would have not proven too effective had the Germans ever invaded) to replace them? Madness I say! Sheer bloody madness!

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by FPSlover

Huh, so my guess was right. That is... damn odd. I can get some being sent, at least as volunteers or drafts to increase manpower during the late part of the war, but the entire thing? And reviving the Home Guard (a group that, in all honesty, would have not proven too effective had the Germans ever invaded) to replace them? Madness I say! Sheer bloody madness!

The tl;dr of my other post

1. It's pretty accurate that the bulk of the Territorial Army would have deployed to Europe at the start of the War.

2. The Home Guard was revived in 1982 under a different name (The Home Service Force)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Service_Force

I have to say, V4 appears to cover this more accurately than any previous version, especially V1, which was a joke when it came to the UK..

[Legbreaker]

There are definite....problems. We've been trying to tell them that for months, but...
Believe me though, this is MUCH better than it was in earlier versions!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

This honestly sounds worse than the mangling Twilight 2013 created.

Congratulations, Free League, you managed to make a game that somehow made Twilight 2013 seem better. That's...quite an accomplishment.