4th ed T2K

[Raellus]

Although I too have some issues with the new backstory, I don't think hyperbole and name-calling is helpful or even merited. This is an Alpha, and if enough folks offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of certain problematic aspects of the project, they might get fixed.

IMHO, some folks are reading a bit much into the bit of the backstory regarding the failure of NATO's Operation Reset offensive (unless I'm missing a more detailed description of said op somewhere else in the Alpha). It seems to me that the authors were deliberately vague in order to leave room for Ref interpretation. One is free to interpret it as "NATO is effectively destroyed and running for the hills", OR one can interpret it more conservatively (closer to what happens to the Summer 2000 offensive described in v's 1 & 2).

Also, I think some people miss the entire point of the game- that player parties are supposed to be cut off and on their own. T2k is not a wargame. It's a military ROLE PLAYING GAME.

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[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Also, I think some people miss the entire point of the game- that player parties are supposed to be cut off and on their own. T2k is not a wargame. It's a military ROLE PLAYING GAME.

It's almost as if you've read the game, Rae:

Originally Posted by Twilight: 2000 Play Manual (1st Edition)

Twilight: 2000 is Game Designers' Workshop's trademark for its role-playing game of survival in a devastated world.

A character is more than a battle rifle and an 18 on a random vehicle table. A story is more than a set of combat results. The foremost objective of any RPG setting design process should be an interesting environment in which the player characters have the freedom to act and the capability to evoke meaningful change on some scale.

- C.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

This is an Alpha, and if enough folks offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of certain problematic aspects of the project, they might get fixed

Didn't happen when they were actually asking for input. Played around the edges a bit and threw some lace on to pretty it up....

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Believe me though, this is MUCH better than it was in earlier versions!

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Played around the edges a bit and threw some lace on to pretty it up....

They've made significant changes from earlier versions, and then toned it down again, so now it's set in stone? I don't quite follow that line of reasoning.

Plus, this time, they're soliciting feedback from all of the KS backers, not just a select few. Might that have a little more weight than small group that got an exclusive sneak peek?

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[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

They've made significant changes from earlier versions, and then toned it down again, so now it's set in stone? I don't quite follow that line of reasoning.

Plus, this time, they're soliciting feedback from all of the KS backers, not just a select few. Might that have a little more weight than small group that got an exclusive sneak peek?-

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

This was in a period where there were supposed to be broad changes made to the foundations of the background. You really think they're going to do anything significant now? All that will happen now is tweaks to layout, spelling, and MAYBE a few names here and there.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

This was in a period where there were supposed to be broad changes made to the foundations of the background. You really think they're going to do anything significant now? All that will happen now is tweaks to layout, spelling, and MAYBE a few names here and there.

Well, I don't know. I've been hearing hints of this "sneak peek" for a while now but I don't really know what to make of it. Call me overly cynical, but I'm always a bit leery of "I can't tell you anything about it, but trust me on this..." [secret knowledge] type hints and allegations stuff. And you yourself wrote,

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Believe me though, this is MUCH better than it was in earlier versions!

And yes, I imagine that if enough KS backers chime in with constructive criticism, it might lead to some change. I mean, if a hundred people poke holes in the game world history, it might have more of an impact than when a select, mostly anonymous few did. Then again, you could be right and I could be wrong.

My point is, I don't see the point in bitching and moaning about something that isn't necessarily set in stone. I doubt it will do much good. I'd rather try to stimulate change through constructive means and official channels, than rant and rave about it on a fan site.

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[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

My point is, I don't see the point in bitching and moaning about something that isn't necessarily set in stone. I doubt it will do much good. I'd rather try to stimulate change through constructive means and official channels, than rant and rave about it on a fan site.

There's some merit in that. I think by this stage though, it will be what it will be.

On the plus side for me personally, I had very low expectations for it from the start, so it's not like I'm going to end up disappointed. And we have, what, 4 other T2K rules sets to choose from, and can pick and choose whatever groovy morsels do arrive in the new version for our own current and future campaigns.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Targan

There's some merit in that. I think by this stage though, it will be what it will be.

On the plus side for me personally, I had very low expectations for it from the start, so it's not like I'm going to end up disappointed. And we have, what, 4 other T2K rules sets to choose from, and can pick and choose whatever groovy morsels do arrive in the new version for our own current and future campaigns.

We need to tell Tomas that this is unacceptable - and frankly people crowing about the "artwork" five minutes after it was out and not even reading the rules and the actual game background show that they werent serious potential players

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Targan

And we have, what, 4 other T2K rules sets to choose from, and can pick and choose whatever groovy morsels do arrive in the new version for our own current and future campaigns.

If there aren't any changes to the v4 backstory, then I probably won't use it as is, but I like the way that you're looking at it, and that's probably how I'm going to look at it too.

Originally Posted by Olefin

We need to tell Tomas that this is unacceptable - and frankly people crowing about the "artwork" five minutes after it was out and not even reading the rules and the actual game background show that they werent serious potential players

Yes, but why would they listen to people ranting about "antifa Soviet fan-boys" either? Seriously?

I understand that you are frustrated that they didn't listen to you when you were a secret advisor or whatever (I'm really curious about that whole arrangement), but that doesn't mean that Tomas et al won't listen to the rest of us.

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[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Well, I don't know. I've been hearing hints of this "sneak peek" for a while now but I don't really know what to make of it. Call me overly cynical, but I'm always a bit leery of "I can't tell you anything about it, but trust me on this..." [secret knowledge] type hints and allegations stuff. And you yourself wrote,

And yes, I imagine that if enough KS backers chime in with constructive criticism, it might lead to some change. I mean, if a hundred people poke holes in the game world history, it might have more of an impact than when a select, mostly anonymous few did. Then again, you could be right and I could be wrong.

My point is, I don't see the point in bitching and moaning about something that isn't necessarily set in stone. I doubt it will do much good. I'd rather try to stimulate change through constructive means and official channels, than rant and rave about it on a fan site.

-

the sneak peek and the Alpha as far as the players manual as it pertains to the war, the background, the timeline are basically the same - it was leaked material and the minute I saw it I was like oh crap - and the so called denials that I got werent worth the electrons that were used

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

This was in a period where there were supposed to be broad changes made to the foundations of the background. You really think they're going to do anything significant now? All that will happen now is tweaks to layout, spelling, and MAYBE a few names here and there.

I also had a ton of comments with Tomas and Marc - and got flat out ignored by them and told that what was leaked wasnt the reality of what the game would be -
I have direct quotes that say basically said that what was leaked was totally inaccurate as to the timeline, background, war and campaign start situation - and then out comes the Alpha and it backs up the leaked material - and if anything its worse

and refs can ignore anything they like - but the war and timeline and background is canon if its not changed and would have to be used by anyone writing for the 4th edition - and frankly as stated before its a goat screw - and at this point I doubt Tomas will be listening to anyone even with them getting ripped a new one on FB, here and discord. After all he hasnt been listening to anyone so far.

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

As someone who did see draft information, We did complain about the timeline and how pro-Soviet it was and got told that we were looking at "Outdated information" and that the finished project would not reflect "current politics in any way".

This is lies because President West is a warmongering Idiot who embodies multiple Leftist stereotypes of Republican Politicians.

As such I hope to get the game used as not to give them a dime for it.

[Silent Hunter UK]

How is West a warmonger? He wasn't the guy who invaded Poland.

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter UK

He wasn't the guy who invaded Poland.

Perhaps not. But he is the one who launched nukes on Soviet forces after USSR didn't nuke Israel after they nuked NUAR.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Although I too have some issues with the new backstory, I don't think hyperbole and name-calling is helpful or even merited. This is an Alpha, and if enough folks offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of certain problematic aspects of the project, they might get fixed.

IMHO, some folks are reading a bit much into the bit of the backstory regarding the failure of NATO's Operation Reset offensive (unless I'm missing a more detailed description of said op somewhere else in the Alpha). It seems to me that the authors were deliberately vague in order to leave room for Ref interpretation. One is free to interpret it as "NATO is effectively destroyed and running for the hills", OR one can interpret it more conservatively (closer to what happens to the Summer 2000 offensive described in v's 1 & 2).

Also, I think some people miss the entire point of the game- that player parties are supposed to be cut off and on their own. T2k is not a wargame. It's a military ROLE PLAYING GAME.

-

It specifically says that all the NATO units assigned to RESET were overrun and the troops running for the hills.

They assigned EIGHT FULL CORPS to RESET - this isnt just the 5th Division - this is every division that was assigned in the SECRET document

So that means 3 Polish Corps, One German, One British, One Belgian, One US and One Netherlands Corps all overrun and destroyed

SOVIETS UBER ALLES

I read the entire Alpha player manual for the background and the war.

So unless you are a Soviet Fan Boy the 4th edition isnt for you as far as timeline and background

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Although I too have some issues with the new backstory, I don't think hyperbole and name-calling is helpful or even merited. This is an Alpha, and if enough folks offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of certain problematic aspects of the project, they might get fixed.

IMHO, some folks are reading a bit much into the bit of the backstory regarding the failure of NATO's Operation Reset offensive (unless I'm missing a more detailed description of said op somewhere else in the Alpha). It seems to me that the authors were deliberately vague in order to leave room for Ref interpretation. One is free to interpret it as "NATO is effectively destroyed and running for the hills", OR one can interpret it more conservatively (closer to what happens to the Summer 2000 offensive described in v's 1 & 2).

Also, I think some people miss the entire point of the game- that player parties are supposed to be cut off and on their own. T2k is not a wargame. It's a military ROLE PLAYING GAME.

-

What part of “all the divisions involved in Reset were overrun and their survivors running for the woods” was unclear? That’s eight Corps including the entire Polish Army overrun and the survivors running for their lives. I have read a lot of military history and that pretty much is a destroyed NATO and Soviets Uber Alles situation - that is not in any way close to V1 or V2.2 - we aren’t just talking the 5th here - we are talking every division in the Secret handout.

And this is very late in the war - this isn’t a situation like where units were overrun in Korea in V1 - this is the last gasp the last effort - ie there isn’t anyone left to stop the Soviets

Sorry but that is utter BS - and one other big question - where are the hundreds of thousands of reinforcements that the US put together - are you telling me the Soviets killed them all or most of them in the big naval battle? Because there isn’t a lot of fighting between the supposed huge naval battle and Reset

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

What part of “all the divisions involved in Reset were overrun and their survivors running for the woods” was unclear? That’s eight Corps including the entire Polish Army overrun and the survivors running for their lives.

Repost from #152:

"In the end, the NATO divisions of Operation Reset are overrun, survivors fleeing into the woods. The final order from HQ is short and to the point: “Good luck. You’re on your own now.”"

p. 148 v4 Player's Manual (Alpha Version)

I still think this is vague enough to allow Ref's room for interpretation. It doesn't say "destroyed" or "annihilated" or "wiped out". "Overrun" doesn't necessarily mean any of these things. Several US divisions could be described as having been overrun during the Battle of the Bulge, but organized elements of said continued to fight on. German divisions on the eastern front during the later years of WWII were routinely overrun, but many broke out of Soviet pockets and fought their way back to German lines, sometimes over and over again.

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[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Repost from #152:

"In the end, the NATO divisions of Operation Reset are overrun, survivors fleeing into the woods. The final order from HQ is short and to the point: “Good luck. You’re on your own now.”"

p. 148 v4 Player's Manual (Alpha Version)

I still think this is vague enough to allow Ref's room for interpretation. It doesn't say "destroyed" or "annihilated" or "wiped out". "Overrun" doesn't necessarily mean any of these things. Several US divisions could be described as having been overrun during the Battle of the Bulge, but organized elements of said continued to fight on. German divisions on the eastern front during the later years of WWII were routinely overrun, but many broke out of Soviet pockets and fought their way back to German lines, sometimes over and over again.

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From the Secret Handout

5th Infantry Division’s avenue of advance from LESZNO to LODZ along
route RED is bounded on the right (south) flank by the III US Corps main elements, including 2nd Armored Division and 1st Cavalry Division (main body of III US Corps advance to LUBLIN) with 3rd ACR in reserve. 29th and 34thinfantry divisions are advancing further south on their right flank, along the Czech and Slovak borders, toward KRAKOW.
(S/NATO) 5th Infantry Division’s avenue of advance from LESZNO to LODZ is bounded on the left (north) flank by elements of I German Corps (1st and 7th Panzer Divisions, 11th Panzergrenadier Division, and 27th Fallschirmjaeger Brigade) and the
Polish Warsaw Corps advancing from POZNAN to WARSAW.

They are supported by I Netherlands Corps in reserve. On their left (north), I UK Corps and the Polish Pomeranian Corps are to move from SZCZECIN to surround and bypass GDANSK and then move to occupy BIALYSTOK with I Belgian Corps in reserve holding the perimeter around GDANSK.

(S/NATO) Note that current end-strength of the units designated as divisions
is approximately equivalent to one brigade of vehicles and heavy equipment (including artillery) and few or no air assets. Personnel strength for most units is about 50% of nominal end-strength for the peacetime unit size. Corps strengths are similarly reduced to the approximate strength of a full-strength division. All units under OPERATION RESET have been reinforced and resupplied to the maximum amount available by EUCOM/LANDCEN

Ok so the Soviets overran all those forces and the survivors went running for the woods? Suuuurree - that is flat out ridiculous

Per their own handout you are talking about eight Corps that in total are the size of full pre-war divisions, with the divisions making them being approximately the size of a brigade in size and at half strength - i.e. this isnt the 1000 man divisions of V1 and V2.2.

Basically its the end of NATO - this isnt the death of a Division - this is the death of NATO as a fighting force -again this is Soviets Uber Alles and they win the war - which definitely 100% is not what V1 and V2.2 in any way were - not at Kalisz

Frankly this timeline and background is a goat screw.

I know people were hungry for the new edition - but unless you are someone who cheered the Soviets on in Red Dawn I doubt this will be well received by anyone as anything they can build a campaign on.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Ok so the Soviets overran all those forces and the survivors went running for the woods? Suuuurree - that is flat out ridiculous

Per their own handout you are talking about eight Corps that in total are the size of full pre-war divisions, with the divisions making them being approximately the size of a brigade in size and at half strength - i.e. this isnt the 1000 man divisions of V1 and V2.2.

Basically its the end of NATO - this isnt the death of a Division - this is the death of NATO as a fighting force -again this is Soviets Uber Alles and they win the war - which definitely 100% is not what V1 and V2.2 in any way were - not at Kalisz

Frankly this timeline and background is a goat screw.

I know people were hungry for the new edition - but unless you are someone who cheered the Soviets on in Red Dawn I doubt this will be well received by anyone as anything they can build a campaign on.

Repost #2:

I still think this is vague enough to allow Ref's room for interpretation. It doesn't say "destroyed" or "annihilated" or "wiped out". "Overrun" doesn't necessarily mean any of these things. Several US divisions could be described as having been overrun during the Battle of the Bulge*, but organized elements of said continued to fight on. German divisions on the eastern front during the later years of WWII were routinely overrun, but many broke out of Soviet pockets and fought their way back to German lines, sometimes over and over again.

*... and "fleeing into the woods." Some of those overrun divisions were rallied, hastily reorganized and reinforced, and put right back into the fight.

If you want to interpret, "In the end, the NATO divisions of Operation Reset are overrun, survivors fleeing into the woods...” as the absolute worst-case scenario, you're free to do so, but I don't see anything in the Alpha rules that states one has to interpret the above the way you have.

And again, the whole point of the backstory is to arrive at a "Good luck. You're on your own..." point where the military-themed survival role-playing game can begin. T2k is not a strategic war game- it never was.

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[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Repost #2:

I still think this is vague enough to allow Ref's room for interpretation. It doesn't say "destroyed" or "annihilated" or "wiped out". "Overrun" doesn't necessarily mean any of these things. Several US divisions could be described as having been overrun during the Battle of the Bulge*, but organized elements of said continued to fight on. German divisions on the eastern front during the later years of WWII were routinely overrun, but many broke out of Soviet pockets and fought their way back to German lines, sometimes over and over again.

*... and "fleeing into the woods." Some of those overrun divisions were rallied, hastily reorganized and reinforced, and put right back into the fight.

If you want to interpret, "In the end, the NATO divisions of Operation Reset are overrun, survivors fleeing into the woods...” as the absolute worst-case scenario, you're free to do so, but I don't see anything in the Alpha rules that states one has to interpret the above the way you have.

And again, the whole point of the backstory is to arrive at a "Good luck. You're on your own..." point where the military-themed survival role-playing game can begin. T2k is not a strategic war game- it never was.

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I beg to differ - RDF Sourcebook and Kings Ransom are both set up for those who want to do straight war games and playing in an organized military setting - as is the East Africa Sourcebook. Thus it can be played as a strategic war game. And there are those who have used the rules to play units during the war itself - thus again it can be used - especially if you use The Last Battle rules to do so.

As to to the destroyed part - made direct comments on the dropbox comments so will see what they say - but there are other references that basically show the remaining US forces as scattered in Europe - i.e. there are no organized US units left - while the Soviets clearly still have an organized army and military