Twilight 2013

[jester]

Kato,

Shame on you for brining the vilest of things to this group, POWERPOINT!!

NO!

NO!

SHAME! SHAME ON YOU!

Now where is my rolled up newspaper?

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Just an FYI -

I'm the GM for Gabes group. Yes he took a .454 beast. I reccomended against it. He has 100 rounds of JHP for it. He's in Kosovo. No, he probably wont find any ammo. He's aware of this. I will bet that once he fires that thing in combat he will realize both its advnatages (as in damage) and its disadvantages (speed, capacity, and RECOIL).

Gabe created a VERY plausible character and has played him very well. I will vouch he is no munchkin.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by jester

Kato,

Shame on you for brining the vilest of things to this group, POWERPOINT!!

NO!

NO!

SHAME! SHAME ON YOU!

Now where is my rolled up newspaper?

It's not powerpoint it is visio. I have never actually created anything in powerpoint. Visio is kinda cool. Below is an example of something I have been doing in visio using my custom built TO&E font.

[leonpoi]

Originally Posted by kato13

It's not powerpoint it is visio. I have actually never created anything in powerpoint. Visio is actually kinda cool. Below is an example of something I have been doing in visio using my custom built TO&E font.

Nice. And I thought visio was just for drawing lame engineering flow diagrams and trying to draw your house using the house palette.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Just to add support to Drashal's comment, the few people I used to know who were pistol shooters typically had a few hundred rounds of ammo for each pistol. Granted, most of them reloaded their cases but they would often have two or three boxes of factory-made ammo as well as their reloads.
So a possible mix for them would be 200-300 reloaded rounds and 50-150 factory rounds.
For the more unusual/harder-to-get rounds you could probably cut that number in half straight away and prossibly cut it down as much as to 20-25% but there's still a good chance that a person would still have a good ammo load when the SHTF.

Originally Posted by drashal

i have a comment on the ammo situation , if this is the players backup weapon he does not use it a lot so he will go through ammo a lot slower than his main weapon so even if you are running at war + 2 years its not unbelievable for the player to have 35 to 60 rounds left for the weapon and thats if he started the war with only two boxes of ammo. at 50 rounds a box which is not unrealistic for a weapon owner to have on hand at balloon day more if the players background is a survivalist type . plus while .454 ammo is not common so are the guns that use it so in a barter situation their is more of a chance that some ammo dealer would have it. i would expect the .22 long to be one of the first ammo types to vanish of the markets long before some of the more exotics

[Dog 6]

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

I think that it is worth buying TW2013 for the rules (even if you decide to make a few tweaks). With the background you'll have to read it and then decide if you find it believable/credible or not as that is really a personal decision.

I personally think that the detail in the rules justify the cost though.

the rules are of no use to me, so i guess that's a big NO.

[jester]

I would think for exotic rounds we would have two extremes. Few rounds, 1 box or less. Or ALOT! In excess of 200 rounds, figure 200-400 or more rounds, of prime newly made stuff in the box and then that much or more in reloads with additional components.

In the scenario presented, Deployed in a combat zone with a 454 Casull, I can see at least 4 boxes of ammo, as for it being the .454 or .45 Colt, well, a couples boxes of .454 and double the more common .45 Colt. With a Lee hand reloader and dies to make your rounds last.

I mean think about it, if you knowingly were going toa combat theater durring a time of hostilities and you were taking a non standard caliber, well the chances of not having access to your weapons ammo, due to no mail or shipping interuptions would cause a person to naturaly stock up a supply of ammo. Primary ammo, and then more common secondary ammo for said weapon.

[Gabe The Gun]

Originally Posted by kato13

I really like the character creation process. I mapped it out a while back when I was considering making it into a web application. I think it could be useful as it lists the page numbers you need to go to as you move through the process. A note this includes all the optional rules and it is not as complicated as it looks.

Wow Kato! Great job, I think the table you created is a great idea, very good job sir! A+............I can definitely see where it could save you some time during character gen, especially if you had some newbs.

[Dog 6]

Kato that looks very good. Is your M-1 AEV the same one from Armor back in the 90's ?

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by kato13

It's not powerpoint it is visio. I have never actually created anything in powerpoint. Visio is kinda cool. Below is an example of something I have been doing in visio using my custom built TO&E font.

I like that second thing. I'll be looking at that program immediately.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

Kato that looks very good. Is your M-1 AEV the same one from Armor back in the 90's ?

Yeah it is the one on one of Pauls "never were" pages

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I like that second thing. I'll be looking at that program immediately.

My font is no where near ready for prime time but if you get the program you can use one of the fonts from here. It is not as complete as my font (which leads to difficulties in use I am still working on) but still might be be able to produce neat looking TO&Es.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I like that second thing. I'll be looking at that program immediately.

It's an expensive program -- between all his MS programs and all his computers, I think Kato may be rich!!!

[kato13]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

It's an expensive program -- between all his MS programs and all his computers, I think Kato may be rich!!!

LOL I rarely purchase anything technical. The majority of my computers (4 rackmount webservers) came in exchange for work done from a company which went under and needed my help when they were selling their data assets. I also got a very expensive router and a web based surveillance system (neither of which I use) instead of payment. Overall these types of trades are fun.

I often get software in similar ways. My copy of visio is an older version which actually came with office 2003. I don't know why they split it out of the suite of software or why they think that they can charge so much money now. (Actually the Database builder stuff is worth the money but the number of people who could use that portion would be so small I still don't quite understand it)

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Just to add support to Drashal's comment, the few people I used to know who were pistol shooters typically had a few hundred rounds of ammo for each pistol. Granted, most of them reloaded their cases but they would often have two or three boxes of factory-made ammo as well as their reloads.
So a possible mix for them would be 200-300 reloaded rounds and 50-150 factory rounds.
For the more unusual/harder-to-get rounds you could probably cut that number in half straight away and prossibly cut it down as much as to 20-25% but there's still a good chance that a person would still have a good ammo load when the SHTF.

Yup I totally agree with you but .454 Casull is NOT a combat round its a hunting round.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

Yup I totally agree with you but .454 Casull is NOT a combat round its a hunting round.

It's also carried as a "backpacking" gun by some hikers -- a couple of .454 Casull rounds hitting them will usually make a bear or cougar think twice -- if you see them coming in time.

[Gabe The Gun]

2013 is The BEST game out there!

[Snake Eyes]

We melted faces on Sunday.

Maybe Gabe will provide an after-action report.

[Gabe The Gun]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Hang on. Such a strong recommendation and you haven't tried it out in combat yet?

We have had our first engagement in combat and my original statement remains unchanged!
2013 is a GREAT game, I don't see ANY reason someone would not like this game! It is totally worth the money to buy the book. You would NOT be dissapointed. Just be prepared for some heavy studying thats all.

[Gabe The Gun]

Well, it all started something like this in short.
We needed some info. Went to an ureputable scumbag for some info exchanging. A meet was set up. We met. Scumbag #2 wasn't REALLY Scumbag #2. We give them the finger and start walking away. Thay raise weopons and theeennn..................
A PC pulls a pistol and starts melting faces before they knew what hit em' , then my PC turns to a bunker with 2 NPC's manning an MG-42 in a bunker and melts one of thier faces with a 6 round aimed burst. Then another PC and Snake Eyes PC start exploding people from a sniper position they had set up the day before, And when I mean EXPLODEING people thats EXACTLY what I mean! Snake Eyes PC is calling shots w/ Lapua rounds, and the other sniper PC is calling shots with a .50 cal.
It was like a ballet of face melting carnage, beautiful! Well done brother Snake. And fill in any details I mite have missed dude, I was just trying to spit out a quik report.

[HorseSoldier]

454 Casull --> Not a serious gunfighter's gun in the real world, but in a game it kind of depends on how stridently realistic you want to be. On the plus side, using a revolver of any sort in a T2K/apocalyptic/etc setting makes keeping up with your brass easy. A source for bullets with which to reload it would be more of a trick in Europe.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

<snip> but in a game it kind of depends on how stridently realistic you want to be. <snip>

This is exactly why we came up with a three stage system. The default level, Stage 2, is what most normal gamers would expect, striving for a balance between crunch and speed of play. Stage 1 is for the people who really don't care about anything except the most basic of rules and want to focus on the story and speed of play. Stage 3 is for people who want to know the fine details of everything and want to mimic reality as closely as possible, though not to the level of games like Phoenix Command and Rolemaster.

The beauty is, the stages are designed to be interchangeable. You want detailed task/skill resolution but don't care about combat, mix and match the stages to give you what you want. I'm not going to open a debate about the backstory, but the ruleset itself is very solid. Not perfect, but pretty damned good.

[Snake Eyes]

I think the only thing Gabe missed was some well-timed 40mm HEDP carnage on his guy's part. Over three exchanges of fire, in relatively clear weather on a calm morning, my guy went four for six with center mass hits against moving and partially concealed hostiles in previously marked and ranged locations with a Desert Tactical .338 Lapua SRS from a fixed prone firing position at ~200m distance in at least one case thru a cinder block wall. He didn't hit on every shot, but that which he hit, he either killed or removed from further tactical consideration.

And, in defense of 2013's levels of staged rule interchangeability, it should be noted and loudly disclaimed that our group tends to play out on the extra-crispy fringe of crunch - including miniatures and house rules to make certain aspects even more complicated. Sometimes it flows clunkier than we'd like but we have fun and at the end of the day that is what it's all about.

[Gabe The Gun]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

I think the only thing Gabe missed was some well-timed 40mm HEDP carnage on his guy's part. Over three exchanges of fire, in relatively clear weather on a calm morning, my guy went four for six with center mass hits against moving and partially concealed hostiles in previously marked and ranged locations with a Desert Tactical .338 Lapua SRS from a fixed prone firing position at ~200m distance in at least one case thru a cinder block wall. He didn't hit on every shot, but that which he hit, he either killed or removed from further tactical consideration.

And, in defense of 2013's levels of staged rule interchangeability, it should be noted and loudly disclaimed that our group tends to play out on the extra-crispy fringe of crunch - including miniatures and house rules to make certain aspects even more complicated. Sometimes it flows clunkier than we'd like but we have fun and at the end of the day that is what it's all about.

Well said Snake.

[Gabe The Gun]

Great combat system!

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

454 Casull --> Not a serious gunfighter's gun in the real world, but in a game it kind of depends on how stridently realistic you want to be. On the plus side, using a revolver of any sort in a T2K/apocalyptic/etc setting makes keeping up with your brass easy. A source for bullets with which to reload it would be more of a trick in Europe.

The bullets would not be the constraining factor I think in the reload process in Europe or other locations (even in US after the TDM), rather the primers. Bullets can be cast from lead (or gold??? silver??) where as the primers are MUCH more difficult to construct, not saying it can't be done, just extremely difficult. Even more so than powder.. Which lends a thought of revolver v. semiauto.. I think you could use black powder in ANY revolver load (experimentation required for the proper amount of course) while I seriously doubt you could get a semi-auto to function for long using said 'dirty' propellant. ?????

Grae

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

The bullets would not be the constraining factor I think in the reload process in Europe or other locations (even in US after the TDM), rather the primers. Bullets can be cast from lead (or gold??? silver??) where as the primers are MUCH more difficult to construct, not saying it can't be done, just extremely difficult. Even more so than powder.. Which lends a thought of revolver v. semiauto.. I think you could use black powder in ANY revolver load (experimentation required for the proper amount of course) while I seriously doubt you could get a semi-auto to function for long using said 'dirty' propellant. ?????

Grae

I agree with Grae on this - primers are difficult at best to make without proper equipment and raw materials.

I also think that using blackpowder loads in a semi auto or full auto would rapidly clog everything up with residue / fouling to the extent that after as little as 5 - X? rounds you would in effect have a singleshot weapon like a bolt action or similar .Also -getting the required amount of power to move the mechanism could be a problem in small caliber autos like 9mm. Unless you have quite potent blackpowder and reliable loading data ,getting an auto to work is hard -all in my humble opinion .A revolver like the .454 would be a good choice as you could use a hard load of BP ,and because the length of the chamber leaves wide tolerances regarding the fit of the cartridge after its been reloaded.

There has been written some OT sci-fi material on it called "Guns of the South" by mr.Turtledove i think .(AKs in the Civil War )

But when that is said , designing an auto small arm for blackpowder loads isnt totally unrealistic - I believe it could be done .I do not however see that it would be possible to make it very accurate or reliable on the level of modern firearms -you would need a system that is geared towards handling major fouling and uneven quality of cartridge and load .Even then it would only be able to function properly a limited number of rounds -whereas something like the AK-47 can take hundreds or thousands of modern cartridge rounds without being fieldstripped.

Further ,I think the brass would present a major obstacle a little down the road .Modern brass can be reloaded 10-20 times or so depending on quality ,loads etc .But they have tight tolerances regarding dimensions etc meaning that 1/32 of an inch differnce could mean a jam .

In a revolver type weapon this would not be as critical as the chamber allows for this.Most modern firearms will easily handle the pressures from blackpowder loads - theoretically it generates a lot less pressure than nitrate based propellants.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

The bullets would not be the constraining factor I think in the reload process in Europe or other locations (even in US after the TDM), rather the primers. Bullets can be cast from lead (or gold??? silver??) where as the primers are MUCH more difficult to construct, not saying it can't be done, just extremely difficult. Even more so than powder.. Which lends a thought of revolver v. semiauto.. I think you could use black powder in ANY revolver load (experimentation required for the proper amount of course) while I seriously doubt you could get a semi-auto to function for long using said 'dirty' propellant. ?????

I agree. You should be able to keep a revolver firing indefinitely using black powder loads.

[pmulcahy11b]

Most lever-action rifles function well with blackpowder rounds -- many these days are specifically designed for it, for use by Cowboy Action enthusiasts. They offer you a decent rate of fire while still being able to use blackpowder rounds, and many are chambered for revolver rounds, allowing you to interchange rounds between your rifle and revolver if necessary.

[Snake Eyes]

I think the real lesson here is: Don't run out of ammo.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

I think the real lesson here is: Don't run out of ammo.

too true