Refugee vs rural community (split from Cavalry in T2K)

[Raellus]

Mo, I agree that there would be all kinds of strife in the countrysides of countries across the globe in the wake of a war like that described in Twilight canon. However, I think that within countries where there is not a lot of nativistic feeling or ethnic tension, you'd see a good deal of cooperation. Of course, there would be instances of urban refugees fighting with their rural counterparts, but I think that it would be the exception to the rule of cooperation.

A lot of the examples of strife you cited were instances where a foreign power was attacking the locals or rival ethnic groups within a given region were going at it and settling old scores. The only intra-ethnic/national example was the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and that was Rural guerillas attacking city dwellers.

[Legbreaker]

Add in the spectre of starvation, disease and radiation and you've got yourself some pretty strong motivations for the breakdown of civilisation....

[Graebarde]

In answer to the question if a mayor and/or sheriff can legally organize.. the mayor is the legal elected leader of the community/city. IF he/she has the support of the council (in most communities there is a 'city council', also elected that represent the different areas of the community) I beleive they can, but don't know about all state laws etc.

As for the sheriff.. YES they can deputize and for reserves of unpaid persons which are used for various reasons... disaster releif, crowd control, search and rescue, in addition to hunting fugitives (though not on much scale for this any more). Training for them varies from area to area, some very well trained to almost no training other than a few classes on use of force etc.

I do NOT think, and didn't mean to imply, they would be used as a private army, at least until after TDM. They would be manning road blocks/check points, and YES I think in general there would be the comming together, UNLESS there is an unruley mob involved. Then the bets are off.

Yes there will be factions within any community. Remember these individuals in leadership positions are elected officials and most (if any) were unanamous. But if they are highly respected competent fair leaders (and I'm talking about politicans ) who have the support of the greater majority (70% or better of the community in question I would say) in peace time, locals are more apt to follow their lead/decisions in times of crisis. Again we are talking of a democracy here, so again not all will agree. As time progresses it all depends on local conditions and how well the leaders lead and the people cooperate.

In rural states (ie most states west of the Mississippi and east of the Sierra Nevada at least) I think there would be less friction between the urbanite and rural population as long as the urbanite 'behaved and contributed to the community". After TDM, the day of the freeloader will be over. You want to eat? You work. IT does not have to be manual labor either, child care by elderly or semi-infirm to release ablebodied parents to work for the reconstruction/survival of all comes to mind. The elderly, young, and infirm will be tolerated to not work for the most part, but I think they will. Peer pressure is going to be great as supplies are limited.

Here again... leadership, leadership, leadership and cooperation.

There will ALWAYS be exceptions, and I see Warlords in the scheme of things as well as corruption in places where the population lets it occur.

This is from the US perspective, and perhaps Canadian as well.

In game terms, charisma will be a deciding roll as will intelligence and leadership.


And Leg, the idea of fuel I think is pretty well on. I could see rationing by the spring of 97. I think also that oilseed and alcohol plants will be full blown production of old crop. Biodiesel was not a big item at that time, but diesels (in the warmer months) can run 100% vegoil (sunoil, canola/rape, soybean) with no loss in power. The community college I went to in 83 had an alternative fuels class offered since 73. I've seen the dyno done in person on field tractors and seen the straight run filtered sunflower oil used to plow. BUT the straight run will solidify in colder weather faster than the biodiesel that has been soaponified and had the waxes removed.

[Raellus]

I've been thinking about this topic and a bit from a fantastic book called World War Z came to mind. The episode I'm refering to describes, in all seriousness, floods of urban refugees fleeing a zombie uprising (sounds silly but it's very well done, IMO). Large groups of people camping out in their cars, trucks, buses, RVs, etc, cooperating, helping each other out etc. It all goes pretty well at first. Then, the food runs out. Things get very uncivil pretty quickly after that point.

It makes perfect sense. Most people are likely to work together at first, but then, once the pressure becomes too great, there's going to be conflict.

What's that saying? "There are three kinds of people in this world: sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs." Something like that? I can't attribute this to anyone. Do any of you know where this comes from? I think about it a lot in reference to T2K.

[headquarters]

wouldnt the supply of bio fuels be marginal ? considering that it needs farmland to grow and labour and resources that many would rather have put into food production ?Seeing as food is in short supply I mean .

I mean - in the case of SVO ( yeah -I know it !) it overlaps I guess .But the none edible crops ?

Could it be argued that only those with power enough to retain farmland that can be set aside for fuel production will actually have access to it -and thus be a sort of upper class .

(The people that can run their tractor and thus increase their productivity , not to mention run the engine of the M113 they bartered for food with those starving squaddies that came by -a new class of military and landowning gentry ?)

Originally Posted by Graebarde

In answer to the question if a mayor and/or sheriff can legally organize.. the mayor is the legal elected leader of the community/city. IF he/she has the support of the council (in most communities there is a 'city council', also elected that represent the different areas of the community) I beleive they can, but don't know about all state laws etc.

As for the sheriff.. YES they can deputize and for reserves of unpaid persons which are used for various reasons... disaster releif, crowd control, search and rescue, in addition to hunting fugitives (though not on much scale for this any more). Training for them varies from area to area, some very well trained to almost no training other than a few classes on use of force etc.

I do NOT think, and didn't mean to imply, they would be used as a private army, at least until after TDM. They would be manning road blocks/check points, and YES I think in general there would be the comming together, UNLESS there is an unruley mob involved. Then the bets are off.

Yes there will be factions within any community. Remember these individuals in leadership positions are elected officials and most (if any) were unanamous. But if they are highly respected competent fair leaders (and I'm talking about politicans ) who have the support of the greater majority (70% or better of the community in question I would say) in peace time, locals are more apt to follow their lead/decisions in times of crisis. Again we are talking of a democracy here, so again not all will agree. As time progresses it all depends on local conditions and how well the leaders lead and the people cooperate.

In rural states (ie most states west of the Mississippi and east of the Sierra Nevada at least) I think there would be less friction between the urbanite and rural population as long as the urbanite 'behaved and contributed to the community". After TDM, the day of the freeloader will be over. You want to eat? You work. IT does not have to be manual labor either, child care by elderly or semi-infirm to release ablebodied parents to work for the reconstruction/survival of all comes to mind. The elderly, young, and infirm will be tolerated to not work for the most part, but I think they will. Peer pressure is going to be great as supplies are limited.

Here again... leadership, leadership, leadership and cooperation.

There will ALWAYS be exceptions, and I see Warlords in the scheme of things as well as corruption in places where the population lets it occur.

This is from the US perspective, and perhaps Canadian as well.

In game terms, charisma will be a deciding roll as will intelligence and leadership.


And Leg, the idea of fuel I think is pretty well on. I could see rationing by the spring of 97. I think also that oilseed and alcohol plants will be full blown production of old crop. Biodiesel was not a big item at that time, but diesels (in the warmer months) can run 100% vegoil (sunoil, canola/rape, soybean) with no loss in power. The community college I went to in 83 had an alternative fuels class offered since 73. I've seen the dyno done in person on field tractors and seen the straight run filtered sunflower oil used to plow. BUT the straight run will solidify in colder weather faster than the biodiesel that has been soaponified and had the waxes removed.

[Mohoender]

I have seen everyone talking about Bio fuel. That's a nice idea but I don't see how it can be relevant to the game. With the first timeline, it would be almost non existent. I don't recall that you had much biofuel 15 years ago.

With T2013 you could find some but it remain marginal and there are no reason to maintain its production. Anyway bio fuel is mostly fuel with an addition of bio products. You won't have the fuel to make it.

Alcohol, wood, vegetable oil remain the best option and only ones IMO. As someone pointed out you can run diesel on almost 100% vegetable oil (except in cold weather). Then, you need to mix it a bit (much less than biofuel) to use it even in cold weather (freezing will remain a problem but it will be reduced). Wood can be use with ease and you don't need high tech to make a gazogene. Then you can addapt one on any vehicles (as long as it is the size of car and as long as it doesn't rely on electronics). I don't know the process to modify a vehicle to alcohol but that seems faisable (moreover, military vehicles are increasingly made to run on several type of fuels). Producing alcohol in fair quantity is not that hard, it might be long but not that hard (the main dificulty would be to have a fairly pure product as someone pointed out). One thing with alcohol is that you can make it from about everything (no need to use your food for that). You just need to fill some kind of tank with water and vegetable products and let that macerate for some times (in the process you might even be able to collect gas). When you get what you wanted you just need to distilate the thing. I keep it simple here but that's basicaly it and, again, quantity would be the main problem. I agree that the process as described in T2K is unrealistic but you still don't need any tech to make it (these kind of processes have been known for centuries already).

As such, I don't see biofuel to be around at all.

[headquarters]

Sorry if I mixed up - I meant of course the easiest one to make -SVO -straight vegetable oil when I said bio fuel .

As I understand it can be used with most direct injection / mechanical pump injection diesel engines after filtration - and that solidification without a preheater - starts at around 5 C* -or in terms of incomplerte combustion I mean .

Anyways -back on topic - I see this as a possible strategic advantage for the people out in the country side -who once again will revert to a system of landownership equals power - like we have had for most of our settled history .

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I have seen everyone talking about Bio fuel. That's a nice idea but I don't see how it can be relevant to the game. With the first timeline, it would be almost non existent. I don't recall that you had much biofuel 15 years ago.

With T2013 you could find some but it remain marginal and there are no reason to maintain its production. Anyway bio fuel is mostly fuel with an addition of bio products. You won't have the fuel to make it.

Alcohol, wood, vegetable oil remain the best option and only ones IMO. As someone pointed out you can run diesel on almost 100% vegetable oil (except in cold weather). Then, you need to mix it a bit (much less than biofuel) to use it even in cold weather (freezing will remain a problem but it will be reduced). Wood can be use with ease and you don't need high tech to make a gazogene. Then you can addapt one on any vehicles (as long as it is the size of car and as long as it doesn't rely on electronics). I don't know the process to modify a vehicle to alcohol but that seems faisable (moreover, military vehicles are increasingly made to run on several type of fuels). Producing alcohol in fair quantity is not that hard, it might be long but not that hard (the main dificulty would be to have a fairly pure product as someone pointed out). One thing with alcohol is that you can make it from about everything (no need to use your food for that). You just need to fill some kind of tank with water and vegetable products and let that macerate for some times (in the process you might even be able to collect gas). When you get what you wanted you just need to distilate the thing. I keep it simple here but that's basicaly it and, again, quantity would be the main problem. I agree that the process as described in T2K is unrealistic but you still don't need any tech to make it (these kind of processes have been known for centuries already).

As such, I don't see biofuel to be around at all.

[Mohoender]

Ok. now I understand.

I had about the same type of informations. Actually my wife's father (a good biker, a fair mechanic and a self-made specialist on military vehicles) also used something similar as a lubricant (However, I never asked about the full details). According to him it worked perfectly and, on several occasion, better than lubricants made from petroleum.

He'll be in retirement next year (then, he'll have more time) and I should ask him about the full details. What I know for sure today is that he and several of my wife uncle tried a lot of thing replacing petroleum by bio products when they were young.

[jester]

Actualy right now they are experiementing with an algae that can produce a form of biodiesel, which could prove useful, a saltwater pond or sea pond or series of them used to grow this algae could prove to be an adventure. A selfmade "lord" sets up the ponds and produces the fuel at a minute rate of course.


And lets not forget alternative fuels, like synthetic fuel made from coal and shale, again with a production facilitiy producing small amounts but still producing fuel, and again the PCs would need to do something related to it.

[Legbreaker]

While biodiesel and other fuel substitutes might be an option for 2013 and beyond, for T2K I believe they're far from it.

Once the war started in 1996, very few resources would have been spared to develop these new technologies. A few, very few individuals and small groups might have continued dabbling, but little progress would have been achieved, especially with the more exotic ideas such as petrochemical producing algae.

Same goes for all technology. The world would be stuck with what it had mid 1997 at best but as the war dragged on, especially after the nukes, tech level would rapidly decrease as things wore out, and supplies became scarce.

By 2000, anything electrical or electronic is likely to be a distant memory. Working vehicles would be rare, while factories, where they still existed, would most likely be back to pre 1900 levels of mechanisation, perhaps even earlier.

Slave or indentured labour is likely to be the greatest resource a community has. Some communities might even send armed parties out into the countryside to round up more from groups of refugees, or conduct raids on other villages and farms.

[Mohoender]

I agree Leg but I like the idea of Jester (it would make a nice game scenario). For fuel substitute you'll have several among the most simple types. The one which are readily available.

I don't know for Australia but in France, the only thing that prevent their wide use is state regulation. Not because of security but simply because of taxes. If you don't want to use regular fuel and replace, for exemple, 70% of the fuel by the filtered oil in which you have cooked your french fries, you can do it (as long as you have a diesel and as long as you don't mind the smell). However, you'll have trouble with the cops (fine, of course, but they might even be allow to take you vehicle away) who would have too investigate too far (except if they are sneezing of course ).
Nevertheless, despite that, when the gas price came up, the number of people replacing diesel by diesel mixed with oil or by domestic fuel, rose subsequently.

[headquarters]

is NOT a new technology-its what the inventor of the diesel engine actually envisioned it running on .Not mineral diesel.

Older diesels will run on it and some newerr ones - with a little modifications - but not a lot of work .

Some mineral fuel should be added at intervals I understand..

So SVO - could well be the thing ,its been in trials in both world wars and many a resource full motor owner will have dabbled in it .

It could be possible -but the downside is you have to grow it and that it diverts land from food crops.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by headquarters

So SVO - could well be the thing ,its been in trials in both world wars and many a resource full motor owner will have dabbled in it .

It could be possible -but the downside is you have to grow it and that it diverts land from food crops.

You are right about the downside but again, that will depend on where you are. It's in wide production around the world and you can find some natural sources almost everywhere.

All around the Mediterraean you'll find a fair number of olive trees that can be used for that purpose. In Mainland Europe, a number of crop is used to produce oil and it wouldn't be a problem to keep at least a part of this production. In Africa, you'll find palm oil. In other countries you'll be able to get oil from nuts. In all wine regions, you'll still be able to produce some kind of oil from the grapes without even lowering the food or wine output (you produce it from pip). In northern region, I wouldn't be surprised to see people using annimal grease (would it be possible from fish?).

Nowadays, that would be more difficult but in T2K, with the drop in vehicle number, it shouldn't be that much of a problem. The only things you need to produce that kind of oil are a tank, a flat stone, a wheel stone and something to roll the wheel (yourself, your wife, a donkey or some slaves).

[WallShadow]

For a historical viewpoint, try watching "The Grapes of Wrath" for the Okies vs. Locals interactions.

[Targan]

Resurrecting a 7 year old thread. That's got to be close to a record

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Targan

Resurrecting a 7 year old thread. That's got to be close to a record

Gotta agree, still interesting...