SOF in T2K

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

As far as reservists being not as good as their Regular Army counterparts in their military capacity....

The finest Soviet Motor Rifle Regiment in the world happens to be the OPFOR at Fort Irwin, California (National Training Center). This unit does nothing but Soviet tactics for most of the year and has the well-earned reputation for regularing kicking the bejesus out of every visiting unit. The OPFOR is so seldom defeated that when it does happen, the rest of the Army litterly sets up and take notice...like when a National Guard pulled it off. I can still remember the utter shock of my unit's officers/NCOs that a Guard unit managed to pull off something that we hadn't been able to do....

Of course, my faith was restored when the next NG unit in rotation was gutted in proper fashion!

Still, whenever someone makes the claim that the Reserves just aren't as good as....

It also goes to show that not all Reserve/National Guard Officers and their staff think "inside the box" as most in the Regular Army have been taught. As with many modern battlefield it not the General and his Staff that win the battle, it some Team Leader, Squad Leader, Platoon Leader, Company Commander, and/or Battalion Commander/XO/S-3 that happens to be Johnny on the spot and makes a decision that their opponent hadn't account for. By the time they realize they are in trouble it way too late.

I remember in the book "Team Yankee" when the Armor Company had been reinforce for supporting attack. They weren't the main axis of the attack, but somehow had captured a bridge. After they had reported to Battalion, the Brigade S-3 I believe who overheard the report came on. There was awkward silence as everyone tried to figure if they let the Battalion continue with their main attack in attempt to capture the bridge head the Battalion was after or shift the Battalion main axis. If they didn't shift the Battalion main attack then the question was there anyone they could move hastily to support the lucky reinforce Armor Company in holding their Bridge...

In modern Mechanized/Armor/Motorized warfare as we have seen these days it takes only little incidents like these to change things. In WWII there was this minor attack that led to the Battle of the Bulge. In which the German main attack had happen to strike at a point of the battle field that was held by green US Division that broke with none to little resistance against a force that no one was expecting to strike there.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by bobcat

during vietnam eery major deployable unit had their own organisational long rang recon units. this has been carried on into present though the name for such unit types has changed(its currently RSTA).

having been in a reconnaissance surveillance and target acquisition squadron myself it would not be unlikely that such units would continue to exist in the later stages of the twilight war. though im certain they would still be ignored as is characteristic of most brass.

At least at one time all US Division had on the book in theory of National Guard unit that would take long range recon unit. Most of the so call "Light" had National Guard or Reserve Battalion that was to provide most of the Anti-Tank assets too.

With that said, I know in the most of the Regular Army "Light" Division there would be enough ex-Paratroop, ex-Air Assault, tabbed Rangers, and so on that by 1998-1999 that each would re-start the pre-ranger classes they had before the war and expand them to make a small company size unit that was able to act as the LRRP units had with each Division in Vietnam.

I can see some of these troop being 'borrowed' by Corps and other Division to set up similar units at those levels too. As well as setting up Infantry training school at both Corps and Division level to help retrain the excess support units personnel and personnel transferred in from other service to get them ready for their new job.

If one was to believe the troop levels that were expressed in the game, it wouldn't be far fetch to have Platoon/Squad with wide variety of skills sets, even in the Regular Army units. Another thing I have seen posted time again is the fact the misconception that National Guard that had been raised in one State or Region would still have a heavy influence from there. Yes, there would still be several troops left over from those areas, but if they had been in the fighting at any time until after late-1997 the odds are with the replacement for wounded dead would water it down quite a bit. This is due to the fact that the US Army would be responsible to provide replacement, not the National Guard of whatever state they came from. As support I would like to point out during the build up to WWII the 28th Division which was PA NG unit prior to Federalization had been tapped several time to provide cadre to other units that were being raised and Federalized. It was so out of hand at one time a certain Major General Bradley had sent word back up the chain of command that, yes the Division could provide another cadre, but he would need one sent to the Division to help train the replacements that they were still trying to train and bring up to speed.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Webstral

You've summarized my thinking more succinctly than I did.

Webstral

No honestly it can go either way. There could be a Company with 4 platoons... One for each of the three Brigades and one for Division. Or one "Company" in sense that many other Companies happen to be in. It would depend on a number of things, the Division itself, how much combat the Division has seen, and other factors. Armored and Mechanized Divisions would probably have a smaller "Companies", while a Light Infantry Division commander would try to field a company. One of the rationale behind this would be they would help the Divisional Cavalry in their assignment too. Remember in the US Army of the Twilight 2000 war, Brigades didn't have their own recon units. They relied on Division diverting assets to them or worse diverting the assets at Battalion level for their need.

Remember a Divisional Commander could come from any branch of the military in theory. Artillery unit or Engineer or Armor/Armor Cavalry/Mechanized minded Commanders wouldn't realize the what an 'asset' this type of company could be. On the other hand many Commanders who had seen service in Vietnam would view all Special Force with mix feelings. Some would know and understand what they are capable of, while others would go out of their way to not use them. It really depend on how any commander would feel what they need to provide the security for their unit. Much like a member of this group wrote up re-organization of the 5th US Mechanized Division in which it was basically one Heavy Brigade and two Light Infantry Brigade with enough transport to move a Battalion or two of those Brigade if need be.

One has to remember before the US Army committed troops World War II to the Battle that the Armor Division were basically 2 Armor Regiments and 1 Armor Infantry Regiment. Later all but two of the Divisions were reorganized 3 Armor Battalions and 3 Armored Infantry Battalion usually organized in into three combat commands that would have one Battalion of each to work with. Again Combat Command were quite fluid in who had what.

Up until 1943 the US Army had tried organize Motorized Infantry Divisions but the idea was dropped and it was decide that if they needed a Motorized Infantry Division they would supply a Division from Corps/Army/Army Group levels transport assets to make the unit mobile. Not only that many Division had enough Motorized Recon Vehicle (jeeps) and other transport to move up to Regiment at when need in leapfrog fashion. Much how the 101st had done with their Air Assault assets during Operation Desert Storm.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

It also goes to show that not all Reserve/National Guard Officers and their staff think "inside the box" as most in the Regular Army have been taught. As with many modern battlefield it not the General and his Staff that win the battle, it some Team Leader, Squad Leader, Platoon Leader, Company Commander, and/or Battalion Commander/XO/S-3 that happens to be Johnny on the spot and makes a decision that their opponent hadn't account for. By the time they realize they are in trouble it way too late.

Don't know about thinking inside the box, but there are several units (the armored cav regts especially) that were trained to "wing it" as necessary. We were always taught that the doctrine was just a base and that the units had to key off of the individual track commander, if necessary. In several REFORGERS, for example, the 2nd ACR was famous for its end runs as well as its ability to find that special weak spot. We had scout tracks launching what turned out to be a regimental-sized attack just because they found a gap that the OPFOR wasn't watching. Regulars blindly following doctrine....not in any unit that I served in!

In modern Mechanized/Armor/Motorized warfare as we have seen these days it takes only little incidents like these to change things. In WWII there was this minor attack that led to the Battle of the Bulge. In which the German main attack had happen to strike at a point of the battle field that was held by green US Division that broke with none to little resistance against a force that no one was expecting to strike there.

Hmmm, first time I've every heard of a minor attack launching the BoB?!?! I study/read about the BoB and I've walked most of the ground that was fought over. The Germans went into the fight knowing that they were going to hit a thinly held sector, held by a mix of green and worn-out troops. Fifth Panzer Armee's attack was actually modified from Hitler's plan to take advantage of just how thinly the 28th Division held the front. As for the 106th...the main attack was keyed for the Lorsheim Gap, a major avenue of approach into St. Vith that was held by a single cavalry squadron with an attached battery of towed tank destroyers. Seeing that the Germans threw in a Fallschrimjager Division...the cav tried but failed to hold the line.

[HorseSoldier]

With that said, I know in the most of the Regular Army "Light" Division there would be enough ex-Paratroop, ex-Air Assault, tabbed Rangers, and so on that by 1998-1999 that each would re-start the pre-ranger classes they had before the war and expand them to make a small company size unit that was able to act as the LRRP units had with each Division in Vietnam.

By '98-99, divisions in everybody's military will have large bodies of really serious veterans. And units will be getting small enough that resume qualifications will be switching more to word of mouth and less and less about schools and tabs and other pre-war resume entries. Honestly, guys who survive through to 1999 have been through levels of privation and stress while doing the job for real under fire that eight weeks of suck in the woods of Georgia and swamps of Florida won't have imparted anything they haven't learned the hard way.

[natehale1971]

I've always felt that PCs are pretty much the SOF of their unit... mainly because of the things they end up doing during the campaign. With all the combat experiences they've had since the start of the war... they have the OTJ training necessary for the kinds of missions that pre-War SOF personnel/teams had been tasked for.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I've always felt that PCs are pretty much the SOF of their unit... mainly because of the things they end up doing during the campaign. With all the combat experiences they've had since the start of the war... they have the OTJ training necessary for the kinds of missions that pre-War SOF personnel/teams had been tasked for.

Yeah I have felt that almost any unit that one throws together for the game would bring a good cross selection of skills sets that would allow them to pull of most operations. It was one of the few things that GDW got right with the game. Especially if one took the time to read the Player guide line and the back story in it about they used for the unit they used.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I've always felt that PCs are pretty much the SOF of their unit... mainly because of the things they end up doing during the campaign. With all the combat experiences they've had since the start of the war... they have the OTJ training necessary for the kinds of missions that pre-War SOF personnel/teams had been tasked for.

That's a really good point, Nate. I do think an in-theatre RECONDO school would still be a good investment in the Twilight U, though. It would serve as a finishing school, if you will, for long-range patrolling, fieldcraft, small unit tactics, and E&E skills.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Raellus

That's a really good point, Nate. I do think an in-theatre RECONDO school would still be a good investment in the Twilight U, though. It would serve as a finishing school, if you will, for long-range patrolling, fieldcraft, small unit tactics, and E&E skills.

Exactly... to give the personnel additional skills they would need for their missions. be it small unit training to get use to working the other members of their team out of combat or training them to use specialized weapons or equipment (because supplying specialized equipment and weapons would actually be easy all things considered, look at what happened with WW2 and the wonder weapons that the Germans were able to make while they were getting bombed 24/7, or the gear that OSS was coming up with out in the field).

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I've always felt that PCs are pretty much the SOF of their unit... mainly because of the things they end up doing during the campaign. With all the combat experiences they've had since the start of the war... they have the OTJ training necessary for the kinds of missions that pre-War SOF personnel/teams had been tasked for.

Nate,

I seem to recall in one of the adventures it kind of suggests that when the PCs get back home, they are kept together because they are proven to function as a team. This gives what is probably an ad hoc unit a more permanent arrangement. (I thought this was laid out in "Going Home" but I can't find it now.)

The implication could be that this group is "special" in some sense and therefore are best kept intact as a kind of crack cadre or unit instead of broken up to reinforce other more conventional units.

Tony

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Nate,

I seem to recall in one of the adventures it kind of suggests that when the PCs get back home, they are kept together because they are proven to function as a team. This gives what is probably an ad hoc unit a more permanent arrangement. (I thought this was laid out in "Going Home" but I can't find it now.)

The implication could be that this group is "special" in some sense and therefore are best kept intact as a kind of crack cadre or unit instead of broken up to reinforce other more conventional units.

Tony

Yup... that's what gave me the idea that PCs are ad hoc SOF type units that came into being on the front lines, and became the stuff of legend!

[Webstral]

Getting back to the levels of experience in the combat units, I think it’s worthwhile to look at the encounter tables and the modules. A large slice of the combatants the PCs are expected to encounter are relatively (or not so relatively) unseasoned. This is because new guys are constantly being inducted. Many of them die pretty quickly, but the veterans are getting killed, too. It’s a tough world.

Webstral

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Getting back to the levels of experience in the combat units, I think it’s worthwhile to look at the encounter tables and the modules. A large slice of the combatants the PCs are expected to encounter are relatively (or not so relatively) unseasoned. This is because new guys are constantly being inducted. Many of them die pretty quickly, but the veterans are getting killed, too. It’s a tough world.

Webstral

So true, there was episode in the "Band of Brothers" in which many of the veterans wouldn't befriend new guys right away since they seemed to get killed so quickly. As stated even luck of the veterans would run out too.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Yup... that's what gave me the idea that PCs are ad hoc SOF type units that came into being on the front lines, and became the stuff of legend!

Nate,

Dang, am I imagining the information on PC groups from some Challenge article or some adventure? They give tips for dealing with unit leaders that are of too low rank, suggesting that PCs can be promoted on a permanent of brevet basis.

Well, either way, a kind of "in theatre" school could qualify for a sort of SOF unit. Many T2K GMs understandably want to add skills to starting PCs. Such a "school" would be a perfect mechanism to give PCs a basic grounding in combat skills, especially some of the more esoteric ones. Also, it would even things with PCs that really are SOF.

Getting back to actual SOF and their inclusion as PCs, I think they tend to be over-represented and the GM is within their rights in drawing the line and limiting them to a few, at most. Unless the PCs are part of a kind of special unit, they are going to be rare as hen's teeth. As well, I guess in a Kalisz type scenario SOF might try to band together for survival, then allow others to travel along as "meat shields". Then again, if you allow SOF PCs, no one can rightfully complain if you, as a GM, throw some real bad hombres to oppose them!

Tony

[natehale1971]

all of the SOF guys i met, had said that rank didn't matter when out in the field on a mission. The person with the skills needed at that moment was the one in the lead. And that's how we always ran our groups... the person with the best 'hands on' knowledge would be the one in charge. The highest ranking member would be in charge when NOT in combat, they'd basicly be in charge of making sure we had food, water, ammo, shelter and the like. Basicly like the 2LT is in command of a platoon, but the Platoon Sergeant is the one who does the heavy lifting!

[Abbott Shaull]

That the concept that for many non-SOF personnel to wrapped their head around. The Senior man is basically in charge while not in the field and for admin purpose, but once you get in the field who ever has the strongest knowledge of that supported the missions the best would be in charge. It is one of the things traditional Officers and in cases senior NCOs have trouble with at time when they go to such units.

The best way to explain is when new 2nd Lts or Ensigns are get to their first duty assignment it quite a shock to some when they learn until they are told, they are 'consult' their senior NCO first before making any 'decision'. Then again for most senior NCOs it didn't matter if the 2nd Lt came from West Point, ROTC, or OCS they were treated equally and lord help you if you had been E-6 or higher and been through OCS. It was the OCS trained officers were suppose to know better than make certain mistakes that other Officers were bound to make.

In the tradition units this is the only time career of for Officers where they are in charge in title only. When they screw up, the senior NCO still gets a reaming for allowing the Officer doing something so stupid, even if said NCO was no where near said Officer when they screwed up.

Even when the Officer raise above the Platoon Leader position the senior NCOs they have become more and more 'advisor' types. Yet, in most case the unwritten rule is that they are to prevent them from screwing up to much.

As state in the SOF community, once in the field the Officer and Warrant Officer and all enlisted are trained to take orders from the person designate to be in charge of a particular mission.

[dragoon500ly]

To the credit of most officers when they first join the service, they do realize that the young Spec-4 often haves more experience than the new "butter-bar" does. Its those handful of "special" officers, you know, the ones who know that their excrement does not reek, that make life soooo intresting!

I don't recall every serving with a mustang officer that was bad. Its like serving as an NCO increased thier IQ by 200-300 points (LOL!!!).

[Abbott Shaull]

I agree for the most part the new 2nd Lt from West Point or ROTC after their training did realize that for the most that even the companies newest Specialist 4 knew more about thing than they did. Many had been told repeatedly during their training to listen to their senior NCOs, for they are their to make sure you don't make mistake that make them look bad.

Yes, the mustang Officers seemed to have their shit together quite well. Otherwise they would of never made it to OCS, also from what I seen they usually were fast tracked to 1st Lts because for the most part they had already done most of their mistake raising through ranks or had seen others make the mistakes they never told themselves they would never make.

Yes the problem children who had trouble smelling their own feces because they had grown use to the smell over the years. The non-surprising thing was the fact that many of these Officer usually didn't make far in leadership roles and could spend a career with luck in staff roles.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

all of the SOF guys i met, had said that rank didn't matter when out in the field on a mission. The person with the skills needed at that moment was the one in the lead. And that's how we always ran our groups... the person with the best 'hands on' knowledge would be the one in charge. The highest ranking member would be in charge when NOT in combat, they'd basicly be in charge of making sure we had food, water, ammo, shelter and the like. Basicly like the 2LT is in command of a platoon, but the Platoon Sergeant is the one who does the heavy lifting!

Nate,

Not really news to me, and hey, it makes sense. In my own game, that's certainly been the usual pattern. There is a Lt. Colonel in command of the unit, but basically lets the unit senior NCOs (a bunch of Sergeants) run the show tactically while she takes care of the logistical end, interfaces with the high command and local community, and keeps the unit on-mission be defining the objectives. (She's also an NPC, and can fade into the background a little too much, which is probably fine with the players as they are allowed a freer hand.)

I was more just looking for a particular rule in some adventure about how ad hoc player groups could be somewhat formalised at some point.


Overall, I'm reminded of Master Corporal Erin Doyle, killed in combat in Afghanistan in 2008.

The first time I saw him, he was quite literally presiding over a meeting between two sets of patrol leaders—one captain and one sergeant—during a long and arduous hike in the deep outback of western Panjwai.

The captain and sergeant would make plans, then kind of quietly look up at Doyle. With a headshake and a grunt, he’d torpedo their idea and they’d go back to the map. This went on for half an hour or more, as gunfire and explosions rippled overhead. With his rank obscured by his gear—his battle rattle—I assumed he was a warrant officer or maybe the company sergeant major, based solely on the deference and respect he received from the other soldiers, many of whom I knew to be cynics of the first order.

http://www.legionmagazine.com/en/ind...of-erin-doyle/

Getting back to T2K, in the past I've been in at least a few games (T2K in particular but also Recon, or wherever you have a rank structure) where the "rank game" has been played, even taken advantage of by some. I guess the attitude by some commander PCs is "it's good to be king" and they don't much listen to their NCOs or take their advice. That doesn't mean they're wrong or are bad leaders as such, and of course this may just be the way the PC is being played, not the way the player would otherwise personally act themselves. While I can't say that this necessarily applies to any game I'm currently in, I'm sure we've all been there. Hack, I'm sure I've played that officer who's excrement doesn't smell some time in the past!

Tony

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by helbent4

I seem to recall in one of the adventures it kind of suggests that when the PCs get back home, they are kept together because they are proven to function as a team. This gives what is probably an ad hoc unit a more permanent arrangement. (I thought this was laid out in "Going Home" but I can't find it now.)

My gut tells me it's in Urban guerrilla, but it could easily be Armies of the night or Kidnapped, or one of the other American modules.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

My gut tells me it's in Urban guerrilla, but it could easily be Armies of the night or Kidnapped, or one of the other American modules.

All three of them along win Lone Star/Red Star tried to hint that the team had previously served together in Europe for the most part. With many a new member or two pick up from here or there.

[waiting4something]

I guess all the Twilight 2000 books pretty much where special operation type adventures. Especially Kidnapped, Satellite Down, and the Last Submarine series. I mean Mediterranean Cruise is some straight up Navy SEAL shit y'all.

[Webstral]

I think everybody and his brother is going to have an interest in having the ability to conduct reconnaissance and sabotage. At the risk of constantly referring to my own work, folks who don’t have pre-war SO/LRS (special operations/long range surveillance) are going to develop them as time and resources allow.

Fort Huachuca builds its own LRS capability from the ground up using a handful of veterans from Europe, the Middle East, and Korea and USAF operators who make their way to southern Arizona after Albuquerque and Kirtland go south. The emphasis is on gathering information—hardly surprising for an MI command. Almost immediately, the trigger-pullers who run the training and operations program start agitating for an expanded role for LRS. MG Thomason refuses to authorize an expanded mission profile until 2000. Huachuca greatly benefits from having cadre and students from the USAF SO arrive on-post in the second half of 1998, courtesy of the collapse of civil order in Albuquerque and the Mexican invasion of New Mexico. Not everyone is going to have this luxury.

USCG First District in New England, for instance, has to make do with homegrown material. There are a few Marines and soldiers with some of the right experience available, but it would be impossible to compare this situation to having proper facilities and cadre. The Maritime Rifles develop a doctrine for reconnaissance based on small watercraft and waterborne infiltration. Here again, just getting to the point at which intelligence gathering can be conducted costs many lives. First District has an active interest in sabotage and assassination, but heavy losses have made the leadership leery of overreach with their sophomoric reconnaissance troops. Even during the raids on pirate strongholds in 1999 and 2000, the LRS types are used almost exclusively for information gathering. Not until the 2001 offensive against the UBF do the Guardians attempt to mix combat engineering and sabotage with reconnaissance.

In the San Francisco Bay Area, on the other hand, light infantry infiltration combined with assassination and combat engineering develops rather quickly. The nature of the terrain (heavily urbanized) works against large-scale infantry operations. Local combatants are forced to develop infiltration and counter-infiltration tactics rather quickly. Combat engineering grows from its roots of arson into a surprisingly sophisticated art form by early 2001. Local militias/police throughout the Bay Area have small groups who have accumulated the skills to move into enemy areas unobserved to attack caches of food, arms and ammunition, and other useful materials. The so-called “legitimate governments” have certain advantages in this area because they have some support from MilGov (principally US Navy) personnel who can show them how to employ explosives and booby traps effectively. However, the various gangs and warlords of the area are quick learners; whatever they lack in formal training they make up for in cunning, desperation, and keen powers of observation.

The Shogun maintains little in the way of LRS. His security comes from having his secret police in place throughout his realm and the constant and unpredictable movement of his motorized army, the Gunryo. Information about the outside world comes from EPW and the occasional merchant convoy.


Webstral

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Fort Huachuca builds its own LRS capability from the ground up using a handful of veterans from Europe, the Middle East, and Korea and USAF operators who make their way to southern Arizona after Albuquerque and Kirtland go south. The emphasis is on gathering information—hardly surprising for an MI command. Almost immediately, the trigger-pullers who run the training and operations program start agitating for an expanded role for LRS. MG Thomason refuses to authorize an expanded mission profile until 2000. Huachuca greatly benefits from having cadre and students from the USAF SO arrive on-post in the second half of 1998, courtesy of the collapse of civil order in Albuquerque and the Mexican invasion of New Mexico. Not everyone is going to have this luxury.

Web, don't apologize. It's helpful to show how some of our thinking here has been applied directly to a campaign setting and yours is top-notch.

I think that pretty much every theatre command or major long-term military cantonment area is going to set up some sort of RECONDO "school" or course to train small units in long-range patrolling and intelligence gathering. Without satellite or aerial recon, and with diminished SIGINT capabilities, long-range patrolling/recon is going to be every field commander's primary intelligence source. These units will not only sneak and peek, they will tap field telephone lines, snatch prisoners, ambush couriers, etc. In Vietnam, the NVA didn't use radios a whole lot so LRRPs and SOG recon teams were essential for collecting intelligence on enemy capabilities and intentions.

To take this thinking one step further, I'll bet the Soviets are doing the same thing during the Twilight War. By the later years of WWII, the Soviets became masters of long-range scouting. I'm sure that the T2K Red Army would be creating it's own LRRP units. This could justify more frequent PC encounters with Soviet "commandos" without resorting to the somewhat cliche'd Spetznaz trope.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Web, don't apologize. It's helpful to show how some of our thinking here has been applied directly to a campaign setting and yours is top-notch.

I think that pretty much every theatre command or major long-term military cantonment area is going to set up some sort of RECONDO "school" or course to train small units in long-range patrolling and intelligence gathering. Without satellite or aerial recon, and with diminished SIGINT capabilities, long-range patrolling/recon is going to be every field commander's primary intelligence source. These units will not only sneak and peek, they will tap field telephone lines, snatch prisoners, ambush couriers, etc. In Vietnam, the NVA didn't use radios a whole lot so LRRPs and SOG recon teams were essential for collecting intelligence on enemy capabilities and intentions.

To take this thinking one step further, I'll bet the Soviets are doing the same thing during the Twilight War. By the later years of WWII, the Soviets became masters of long-range scouting. I'm sure that the T2K Red Army would be creating it's own LRRP units. This could justify more frequent PC encounters with Soviet "commandos" without resorting to the somewhat cliche'd Spetznaz trope.

Well the Spetznaz detachment that one find either the Free City of Krokow or the Black Mondana would qualify as one of these mobile recon units...

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Raellus

To take this thinking one step further, I'll bet the Soviets are doing the same thing during the Twilight War. By the later years of WWII, the Soviets became masters of long-range scouting. I'm sure that the T2K Red Army would be creating it's own LRRP units. This could justify more frequent PC encounters with Soviet "commandos" without resorting to the somewhat cliche'd Spetznaz trope.

Rae,

Reconaissance was the cornerstone of Soviet military doctrine. During and after WWII, the Soviets built a large corps of Razvedchiki (reconnaissance scouts) or "Special Reconnaissance Troops", aside from the Okhotniki/Vysotniki of the Spetsnaz. Razvedchiki ("Raiders") gathered tactical intelligence, recovered documents and captured prisoners for interrogation during the Soviet-Afghan war. They were also the only Soviet troops trained in ambushes, and while I don't know if they would be exactly the same as LRRPs or LRS units, they probably would be by the end of the Twilight war.

Tony