SOF in T2K

[natehale1971]

I've always felt that PCs are pretty much the SOF of their unit... mainly because of the things they end up doing during the campaign. With all the combat experiences they've had since the start of the war... they have the OTJ training necessary for the kinds of missions that pre-War SOF personnel/teams had been tasked for.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I've always felt that PCs are pretty much the SOF of their unit... mainly because of the things they end up doing during the campaign. With all the combat experiences they've had since the start of the war... they have the OTJ training necessary for the kinds of missions that pre-War SOF personnel/teams had been tasked for.

Yeah I have felt that almost any unit that one throws together for the game would bring a good cross selection of skills sets that would allow them to pull of most operations. It was one of the few things that GDW got right with the game. Especially if one took the time to read the Player guide line and the back story in it about they used for the unit they used.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I've always felt that PCs are pretty much the SOF of their unit... mainly because of the things they end up doing during the campaign. With all the combat experiences they've had since the start of the war... they have the OTJ training necessary for the kinds of missions that pre-War SOF personnel/teams had been tasked for.

That's a really good point, Nate. I do think an in-theatre RECONDO school would still be a good investment in the Twilight U, though. It would serve as a finishing school, if you will, for long-range patrolling, fieldcraft, small unit tactics, and E&E skills.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Raellus

That's a really good point, Nate. I do think an in-theatre RECONDO school would still be a good investment in the Twilight U, though. It would serve as a finishing school, if you will, for long-range patrolling, fieldcraft, small unit tactics, and E&E skills.

Exactly... to give the personnel additional skills they would need for their missions. be it small unit training to get use to working the other members of their team out of combat or training them to use specialized weapons or equipment (because supplying specialized equipment and weapons would actually be easy all things considered, look at what happened with WW2 and the wonder weapons that the Germans were able to make while they were getting bombed 24/7, or the gear that OSS was coming up with out in the field).

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I've always felt that PCs are pretty much the SOF of their unit... mainly because of the things they end up doing during the campaign. With all the combat experiences they've had since the start of the war... they have the OTJ training necessary for the kinds of missions that pre-War SOF personnel/teams had been tasked for.

Nate,

I seem to recall in one of the adventures it kind of suggests that when the PCs get back home, they are kept together because they are proven to function as a team. This gives what is probably an ad hoc unit a more permanent arrangement. (I thought this was laid out in "Going Home" but I can't find it now.)

The implication could be that this group is "special" in some sense and therefore are best kept intact as a kind of crack cadre or unit instead of broken up to reinforce other more conventional units.

Tony

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Nate,

I seem to recall in one of the adventures it kind of suggests that when the PCs get back home, they are kept together because they are proven to function as a team. This gives what is probably an ad hoc unit a more permanent arrangement. (I thought this was laid out in "Going Home" but I can't find it now.)

The implication could be that this group is "special" in some sense and therefore are best kept intact as a kind of crack cadre or unit instead of broken up to reinforce other more conventional units.

Tony

Yup... that's what gave me the idea that PCs are ad hoc SOF type units that came into being on the front lines, and became the stuff of legend!

[Webstral]

Getting back to the levels of experience in the combat units, I think it’s worthwhile to look at the encounter tables and the modules. A large slice of the combatants the PCs are expected to encounter are relatively (or not so relatively) unseasoned. This is because new guys are constantly being inducted. Many of them die pretty quickly, but the veterans are getting killed, too. It’s a tough world.

Webstral

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Getting back to the levels of experience in the combat units, I think it’s worthwhile to look at the encounter tables and the modules. A large slice of the combatants the PCs are expected to encounter are relatively (or not so relatively) unseasoned. This is because new guys are constantly being inducted. Many of them die pretty quickly, but the veterans are getting killed, too. It’s a tough world.

Webstral

So true, there was episode in the "Band of Brothers" in which many of the veterans wouldn't befriend new guys right away since they seemed to get killed so quickly. As stated even luck of the veterans would run out too.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Yup... that's what gave me the idea that PCs are ad hoc SOF type units that came into being on the front lines, and became the stuff of legend!

Nate,

Dang, am I imagining the information on PC groups from some Challenge article or some adventure? They give tips for dealing with unit leaders that are of too low rank, suggesting that PCs can be promoted on a permanent of brevet basis.

Well, either way, a kind of "in theatre" school could qualify for a sort of SOF unit. Many T2K GMs understandably want to add skills to starting PCs. Such a "school" would be a perfect mechanism to give PCs a basic grounding in combat skills, especially some of the more esoteric ones. Also, it would even things with PCs that really are SOF.

Getting back to actual SOF and their inclusion as PCs, I think they tend to be over-represented and the GM is within their rights in drawing the line and limiting them to a few, at most. Unless the PCs are part of a kind of special unit, they are going to be rare as hen's teeth. As well, I guess in a Kalisz type scenario SOF might try to band together for survival, then allow others to travel along as "meat shields". Then again, if you allow SOF PCs, no one can rightfully complain if you, as a GM, throw some real bad hombres to oppose them!

Tony

[natehale1971]

all of the SOF guys i met, had said that rank didn't matter when out in the field on a mission. The person with the skills needed at that moment was the one in the lead. And that's how we always ran our groups... the person with the best 'hands on' knowledge would be the one in charge. The highest ranking member would be in charge when NOT in combat, they'd basicly be in charge of making sure we had food, water, ammo, shelter and the like. Basicly like the 2LT is in command of a platoon, but the Platoon Sergeant is the one who does the heavy lifting!

[Abbott Shaull]

That the concept that for many non-SOF personnel to wrapped their head around. The Senior man is basically in charge while not in the field and for admin purpose, but once you get in the field who ever has the strongest knowledge of that supported the missions the best would be in charge. It is one of the things traditional Officers and in cases senior NCOs have trouble with at time when they go to such units.

The best way to explain is when new 2nd Lts or Ensigns are get to their first duty assignment it quite a shock to some when they learn until they are told, they are 'consult' their senior NCO first before making any 'decision'. Then again for most senior NCOs it didn't matter if the 2nd Lt came from West Point, ROTC, or OCS they were treated equally and lord help you if you had been E-6 or higher and been through OCS. It was the OCS trained officers were suppose to know better than make certain mistakes that other Officers were bound to make.

In the tradition units this is the only time career of for Officers where they are in charge in title only. When they screw up, the senior NCO still gets a reaming for allowing the Officer doing something so stupid, even if said NCO was no where near said Officer when they screwed up.

Even when the Officer raise above the Platoon Leader position the senior NCOs they have become more and more 'advisor' types. Yet, in most case the unwritten rule is that they are to prevent them from screwing up to much.

As state in the SOF community, once in the field the Officer and Warrant Officer and all enlisted are trained to take orders from the person designate to be in charge of a particular mission.

[dragoon500ly]

To the credit of most officers when they first join the service, they do realize that the young Spec-4 often haves more experience than the new "butter-bar" does. Its those handful of "special" officers, you know, the ones who know that their excrement does not reek, that make life soooo intresting!

I don't recall every serving with a mustang officer that was bad. Its like serving as an NCO increased thier IQ by 200-300 points (LOL!!!).

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

all of the SOF guys i met, had said that rank didn't matter when out in the field on a mission. The person with the skills needed at that moment was the one in the lead. And that's how we always ran our groups... the person with the best 'hands on' knowledge would be the one in charge. The highest ranking member would be in charge when NOT in combat, they'd basicly be in charge of making sure we had food, water, ammo, shelter and the like. Basicly like the 2LT is in command of a platoon, but the Platoon Sergeant is the one who does the heavy lifting!

Nate,

Not really news to me, and hey, it makes sense. In my own game, that's certainly been the usual pattern. There is a Lt. Colonel in command of the unit, but basically lets the unit senior NCOs (a bunch of Sergeants) run the show tactically while she takes care of the logistical end, interfaces with the high command and local community, and keeps the unit on-mission be defining the objectives. (She's also an NPC, and can fade into the background a little too much, which is probably fine with the players as they are allowed a freer hand.)

I was more just looking for a particular rule in some adventure about how ad hoc player groups could be somewhat formalised at some point.


Overall, I'm reminded of Master Corporal Erin Doyle, killed in combat in Afghanistan in 2008.

The first time I saw him, he was quite literally presiding over a meeting between two sets of patrol leaders—one captain and one sergeant—during a long and arduous hike in the deep outback of western Panjwai.

The captain and sergeant would make plans, then kind of quietly look up at Doyle. With a headshake and a grunt, he’d torpedo their idea and they’d go back to the map. This went on for half an hour or more, as gunfire and explosions rippled overhead. With his rank obscured by his gear—his battle rattle—I assumed he was a warrant officer or maybe the company sergeant major, based solely on the deference and respect he received from the other soldiers, many of whom I knew to be cynics of the first order.

http://www.legionmagazine.com/en/ind...of-erin-doyle/

Getting back to T2K, in the past I've been in at least a few games (T2K in particular but also Recon, or wherever you have a rank structure) where the "rank game" has been played, even taken advantage of by some. I guess the attitude by some commander PCs is "it's good to be king" and they don't much listen to their NCOs or take their advice. That doesn't mean they're wrong or are bad leaders as such, and of course this may just be the way the PC is being played, not the way the player would otherwise personally act themselves. While I can't say that this necessarily applies to any game I'm currently in, I'm sure we've all been there. Hack, I'm sure I've played that officer who's excrement doesn't smell some time in the past!

Tony

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by helbent4

I seem to recall in one of the adventures it kind of suggests that when the PCs get back home, they are kept together because they are proven to function as a team. This gives what is probably an ad hoc unit a more permanent arrangement. (I thought this was laid out in "Going Home" but I can't find it now.)

My gut tells me it's in Urban guerrilla, but it could easily be Armies of the night or Kidnapped, or one of the other American modules.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

My gut tells me it's in Urban guerrilla, but it could easily be Armies of the night or Kidnapped, or one of the other American modules.

All three of them along win Lone Star/Red Star tried to hint that the team had previously served together in Europe for the most part. With many a new member or two pick up from here or there.

[waiting4something]

I guess all the Twilight 2000 books pretty much where special operation type adventures. Especially Kidnapped, Satellite Down, and the Last Submarine series. I mean Mediterranean Cruise is some straight up Navy SEAL shit y'all.

[Webstral]

I think everybody and his brother is going to have an interest in having the ability to conduct reconnaissance and sabotage. At the risk of constantly referring to my own work, folks who don’t have pre-war SO/LRS (special operations/long range surveillance) are going to develop them as time and resources allow.

Fort Huachuca builds its own LRS capability from the ground up using a handful of veterans from Europe, the Middle East, and Korea and USAF operators who make their way to southern Arizona after Albuquerque and Kirtland go south. The emphasis is on gathering information—hardly surprising for an MI command. Almost immediately, the trigger-pullers who run the training and operations program start agitating for an expanded role for LRS. MG Thomason refuses to authorize an expanded mission profile until 2000. Huachuca greatly benefits from having cadre and students from the USAF SO arrive on-post in the second half of 1998, courtesy of the collapse of civil order in Albuquerque and the Mexican invasion of New Mexico. Not everyone is going to have this luxury.

USCG First District in New England, for instance, has to make do with homegrown material. There are a few Marines and soldiers with some of the right experience available, but it would be impossible to compare this situation to having proper facilities and cadre. The Maritime Rifles develop a doctrine for reconnaissance based on small watercraft and waterborne infiltration. Here again, just getting to the point at which intelligence gathering can be conducted costs many lives. First District has an active interest in sabotage and assassination, but heavy losses have made the leadership leery of overreach with their sophomoric reconnaissance troops. Even during the raids on pirate strongholds in 1999 and 2000, the LRS types are used almost exclusively for information gathering. Not until the 2001 offensive against the UBF do the Guardians attempt to mix combat engineering and sabotage with reconnaissance.

In the San Francisco Bay Area, on the other hand, light infantry infiltration combined with assassination and combat engineering develops rather quickly. The nature of the terrain (heavily urbanized) works against large-scale infantry operations. Local combatants are forced to develop infiltration and counter-infiltration tactics rather quickly. Combat engineering grows from its roots of arson into a surprisingly sophisticated art form by early 2001. Local militias/police throughout the Bay Area have small groups who have accumulated the skills to move into enemy areas unobserved to attack caches of food, arms and ammunition, and other useful materials. The so-called “legitimate governments” have certain advantages in this area because they have some support from MilGov (principally US Navy) personnel who can show them how to employ explosives and booby traps effectively. However, the various gangs and warlords of the area are quick learners; whatever they lack in formal training they make up for in cunning, desperation, and keen powers of observation.

The Shogun maintains little in the way of LRS. His security comes from having his secret police in place throughout his realm and the constant and unpredictable movement of his motorized army, the Gunryo. Information about the outside world comes from EPW and the occasional merchant convoy.


Webstral

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Fort Huachuca builds its own LRS capability from the ground up using a handful of veterans from Europe, the Middle East, and Korea and USAF operators who make their way to southern Arizona after Albuquerque and Kirtland go south. The emphasis is on gathering information—hardly surprising for an MI command. Almost immediately, the trigger-pullers who run the training and operations program start agitating for an expanded role for LRS. MG Thomason refuses to authorize an expanded mission profile until 2000. Huachuca greatly benefits from having cadre and students from the USAF SO arrive on-post in the second half of 1998, courtesy of the collapse of civil order in Albuquerque and the Mexican invasion of New Mexico. Not everyone is going to have this luxury.

Web, don't apologize. It's helpful to show how some of our thinking here has been applied directly to a campaign setting and yours is top-notch.

I think that pretty much every theatre command or major long-term military cantonment area is going to set up some sort of RECONDO "school" or course to train small units in long-range patrolling and intelligence gathering. Without satellite or aerial recon, and with diminished SIGINT capabilities, long-range patrolling/recon is going to be every field commander's primary intelligence source. These units will not only sneak and peek, they will tap field telephone lines, snatch prisoners, ambush couriers, etc. In Vietnam, the NVA didn't use radios a whole lot so LRRPs and SOG recon teams were essential for collecting intelligence on enemy capabilities and intentions.

To take this thinking one step further, I'll bet the Soviets are doing the same thing during the Twilight War. By the later years of WWII, the Soviets became masters of long-range scouting. I'm sure that the T2K Red Army would be creating it's own LRRP units. This could justify more frequent PC encounters with Soviet "commandos" without resorting to the somewhat cliche'd Spetznaz trope.