KFS Refit

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Depends on if the KFS has access to prototypes or blueprints of cancelled DoD, DARPA, or defense contractor projects. The Crusader Howitzer was supposed to have a common powerpack with the M1A2, and that a V-12 diesel would be an optional. Now there is talk of the M1A3 and an optional V-12 powerpack for that. Afghanistan and Iraq taught us that there is a need for the turbine in the rapid offensive operations but, in low intensity, COIN, and even in some pure defensive postures the more conservative piston diesel is the better choice.

I was certain there was an auxiliary sight for the M1 gunner but, I wasn't sure of the type, training, or how used. Thanks.

The Gunner's Auxiliary Sight or GAS, requires significant training to master, the gunner has to compute target speed and the range, it most definitely NOT a "one round, one hit" system. Plan on two-four rounds for a moving target, one-three rounds to walk into a stationary target. The GAS depends on standard ammunition types, depending on what the KFS can build, they may even replace the sight with something similar to that used in world war two tanks (stereoscopic sights).

[ArmySGT.]

General characteristics
Crew: 10 — pilot, co-pilot, bow turret gunner, flight engineer, radio operator, navigator, radar operator, two waist gunners, ventral gunner
Length: 63 ft 10 7/16 in (19.46 m)
Wingspan: 104 ft 0 in (31.70 m)
Height: 21 ft 1 in (6.15 m)
Wing area: 1,400 ft² (130 m²)
Empty weight: 20,910 lb (9,485 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 35,420 lb (16,066 kg)
Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney R-1830-92 Twin Wasp radial engines, 1,200 hp (895 kW each) each
Zero-lift drag coefficient: 0.0309
Drag area: 43.26 ft² (4.02 m²)
Aspect ratio: 7.73

Performance
Maximum speed: 196 mph (314 km/h)
Cruise speed: 125 mph (201 km/h)
Range: 2,520 mi (4,030 km)
Service ceiling: 15,800 ft (4,000 m)
Rate of climb: 1,000 ft/min (5.1 m/s)
Wing loading: 25.3 lb/ft² (123.6 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.034 hp/lb (0.056 kW/kg)

Lift-to-drag ratio: 11.9

Armament

3 .30 cal (7.62 mm) machine guns (two in nose turret, one in ventral hatch at tail)
2 .50 cal (12.7 mm) machine guns (one in each waist blister)
4,000 lb (1,814 kg) of bombs or depth charges; torpedo racks were also available

Salvaged from a coastal airfield in Mississippi are two PBY-5A by merchants of the Kentucky Free States. The merchants came back with one of the engines on a horse drawn cart and some crude sketches of the amphibious aircraft. Technicians, descendants of the Two Thousand, were glad to accept the engine and trade it for gold. The merchants were persuaded to escort a salvage operation to the area for gold and some New Manhattan real estate. These aircraft have been to badly damaged be exposure to UV light and salt air to ever fly again. The KFS is using them as templates along with plans and designs from library sources.

In a year, the first model will be ready for test flights in preparation for an aerial reconnaissance unit of 12 aircraft to start. Once this unit has been operational and difficulties sorted out an additional number of exclusive civilian aircraft will serve the needs of the upper caste.

[mmartin798]

Just a nit pick really:

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

These aircraft have been to badly damaged be exposure to UV light and salt air to ever fly again.

These are metal skinned aircraft and UV should not be a problem, other than windscreens. Oxidation would be the problem here.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

Just a nit pick really:



These are metal skinned aircraft and UV should not be a problem, other than windscreens. Oxidation would be the problem here.

There is enough rubber and plastic to make that a problem. Tires, seals, acrylic windows, the paint itself.

[ArmySGT.]

KFS Militia Support Vehicle.pdf

[ArmySGT.]

Stealth edit.


Began adding .pdf attachments to some entries.

[Project_Sardonicus]

A few thoughts on the KFS refit.

The KFS are not what we would consider a modern military outfit. Where the aim would be generally to give a small body of professional soldiers the absolute maximum amount of effective fire power they can carry. And if need be reload them by helicopter or airdrop.
Most rifle squads especially if mounted in an IFV or APC have by the standards of generation that came before a truly eye watering amount of fire power.

The KFS are more like a colonial era paramilitary/military unit. At that point the emphasis is on reliability, small units covering large areas on horse back with limited resupply and command worried they'd blow most of their hunting for game or shooting irresponsibly.

As such I think KFS would still be issuing Mini14s. But with a smaller clip of maybe as little as 10 round capacity and with a key lock on the selector to ensure it could only be set for semi or fully auto. Whereas Cetmes would be issued they would be specialised pieces of kit, for small units of highly trusted and reliable troops.

Also I suspect the KFS would build manually guided ATGMs. They're a much lighter and efficient route to either building hefty artillery guns weighing hundreds of pounds of steel. Or having to build dozens of inaccurate rockets or mortar shells.

It would be something like an early SS11 or Sagger. But radio guided (the technology is simple why waste all that copper on wire guidance wires?) The idea being a KFS unit with a couple of units in a truck or one in a jeep could park a mile or two from the target such as enemy encampment. Take their time setting up and then pick off useful targets such as guard towers, parked vehicles etc.

One unit doing the work of a dozen or so mortar tubes.

I like this way the KFS has a sliding level of increasing threat. Morrow teams maybe able to jam or take control of primitive radio controlled ATGMs. KFS units with semi autos soon unlock the full auto setting and hand out 40 round magazines.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

If the Iowa tank plant and the Anniston Depot are under KFS control, the M1 makes sense as does the M2.

I figure the KFS and most anyone doing any fighting does so in the 18th to mid 19th century style. From the time after crops are planted up until crops need to be harvested. Agriculture being rather labor intensive. I would not doubt that any KFS units supplement their rations (in the corrupt KFS) by growing their own. KFS units might even place a premium on capturing pre-war farming equipment and healthy livestock.

Back to weapons. I think you're right on just using stock 1980's equipment without writing stats for something new. The M35 stats and the M151 stats are in "Liberation at Riverton".

I think that the KFS should be fielding M16s and M4s unless, those are worn out. If they are taking over M1 tanks, M2 IFVs, and M102 howitzers from former army and marine units then why don't they have the small arms too?

So yeah, KFS should have M16A2s. I think it was writers bias. Someone on staff really hates the M16. No reason that the Rich Five can't have the resources and machinery to produce more. If you can make a fusion plant, what is an M16?

I would have expected simpler vehicles even some WW2 and WW1 models, not even American ones at that. Those would be cheaper to make, cheaper to operate, simpler to repair, and easier to operate. The easier to operate would be a factor when you are intentionally limiting education to keep the masses controllable. To the point of fielding things like the Hetzer.

For commercial, emergency use, the partial wood trucks like the WWII Opel-Blitz would allow a rapid, cheap modern transport system.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus

A few thoughts on the KFS refit.

The KFS are not what we would consider a modern military outfit. Where the aim would be generally to give a small body of professional soldiers the absolute maximum amount of effective fire power they can carry. And if need be reload them by helicopter or airdrop.
Most rifle squads especially if mounted in an IFV or APC have by the standards of generation that came before a truly eye watering amount of fire power.

The KFS are more like a colonial era paramilitary/military unit. At that point the emphasis is on reliability, small units covering large areas on horse back with limited resupply and command worried they'd blow most of their hunting for game or shooting irresponsibly.

As such I think KFS would still be issuing Mini14s. But with a smaller clip of maybe as little as 10 round capacity and with a key lock on the selector to ensure it could only be set for semi or fully auto. Whereas Cetmes would be issued they would be specialised pieces of kit, for small units of highly trusted and reliable troops.

Also I suspect the KFS would build manually guided ATGMs. They're a much lighter and efficient route to either building hefty artillery guns weighing hundreds of pounds of steel. Or having to build dozens of inaccurate rockets or mortar shells.

It would be something like an early SS11 or Sagger. But radio guided (the technology is simple why waste all that copper on wire guidance wires?) The idea being a KFS unit with a couple of units in a truck or one in a jeep could park a mile or two from the target such as enemy encampment. Take their time setting up and then pick off useful targets such as guard towers, parked vehicles etc.

One unit doing the work of a dozen or so mortar tubes.

I like this way the KFS has a sliding level of increasing threat. Morrow teams maybe able to jam or take control of primitive radio controlled ATGMs. KFS units with semi autos soon unlock the full auto setting and hand out 40 round magazines.

Or issue the AC556's to NCO's and Officers only, keeping Mini14's for average troops.

[gamerguy]

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus

Also I suspect the KFS would build manually guided ATGMs. They're a much lighter and efficient route to either building hefty artillery guns weighing hundreds of pounds of steel. Or having to build dozens of inaccurate rockets or mortar shells.

It would be something like an early SS11 or Sagger. But radio guided (the technology is simple why waste all that copper on wire guidance wires?) The idea being a KFS unit with a couple of units in a truck or one in a jeep could park a mile or two from the target such as enemy encampment. Take their time setting up and then pick off useful targets such as guard towers, parked vehicles etc.

One unit doing the work of a dozen or so mortar tubes.

I like this way the KFS has a sliding level of increasing threat. Morrow teams maybe able to jam or take control of primitive radio controlled ATGMs. KFS units with semi autos soon unlock the full auto setting and hand out 40 round magazines.

The early ATGMs would be launched from near but not too close to the operators. They would then fly a path which would intersect a line drawn from the operator's position to the targets. The missile would have a flare in the tail (seen only from behind) and the operator would keep the flare and target lined up until they hit. The operator's control would be a joy stick to guide the missile. This much I know.

Once the missile turns to track the target it would fly in a line which could be traced back to the operator. I believe this was how the Israilis determined where to shoot to surspress the operators and cause the missiles to loose control. They kept some tanks on over watch whose duty it was to engage the missile operators while the rest of the unit advanced.

Once the operator aquires the missile in their sites they become vulnerable to counter battery fire. I think to initially engage the missile there was a wider field of view on the sights which was switched, once the operator had control, to a higher magnification. In order to aquire and track the missiles could not go too fast giving time to react on long range shots, IF the defender is ready. Simple radio controls would be easy to make from discrete components. Based on your timeline (edition) of the game what level of manufacturing would be avaialable to make these components? My assumption is the later the war the less likely anyone in North America could make these and the harder it would be to star and operation up. Lots of specialized components. Wire might be vauluable but it might be the only workable system.

Defenses could range from spaced armour plates, heavy forms of chain link fencing, rebar or slat armour. If we are talking an area close to a "hot" border a lot of methods of overcoming these missiles may already be in place. Mortars are a little harder to protect against.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Originally Posted by gamerguy

The early ATGMs would be launched from near but not too close to the operators. They would then fly a path which would intersect a line drawn from the operator's position to the targets. The missile would have a flare in the tail (seen only from behind) and the operator would keep the flare and target lined up until they hit. The operator's control would be a joy stick to guide the missile. This much I know.

Once the missile turns to track the target it would fly in a line which could be traced back to the operator. I believe this was how the Israilis determined where to shoot to surspress the operators and cause the missiles to loose control. They kept some tanks on over watch whose duty it was to engage the missile operators while the rest of the unit advanced.

Once the operator aquires the missile in their sites they become vulnerable to counter battery fire. I think to initially engage the missile there was a wider field of view on the sights which was switched, once the operator had control, to a higher magnification. In order to aquire and track the missiles could not go too fast giving time to react on long range shots, IF the defender is ready. Simple radio controls would be easy to make from discrete components. Based on your timeline (edition) of the game what level of manufacturing would be avaialable to make these components? My assumption is the later the war the less likely anyone in North America could make these and the harder it would be to star and operation up. Lots of specialized components. Wire might be vauluable but it might be the only workable system.

Defenses could range from spaced armour plates, heavy forms of chain link fencing, rebar or slat armour. If we are talking an area close to a "hot" border a lot of methods of overcoming these missiles may already be in place. Mortars are a little harder to protect against.

Pretty much my thought process. The KFS I think have always been the top level for technology development, so I guess if they're building their own radios, possibly old vacumn tube technology. Then it's not a huge leap to be building their own radio controlled aircraft or rockets.

As for the KFS most of the time they're up against enemies at a 19th century level of technology at best. It would be like wondering what would the results of a Korean/Vietnam era US army went head to head with say the British army in the Crimean War. The results being dare I say it messy for the less technological adapted one.

Something as simple as a biplane with an aimer with a radio and binoculars never mind an actual armed aeroplane could cause havoc when paired up with long range artillery.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Mind you probably the biggest advantage the KFS has it's an industrial society, including agriculture.

So it's soldiers are better fed, bigger, stronger more alert with better night vision than their foes.

I suppose it sounds silly. But a KFS unit on several thousand calories a day would be able to see better in the dark. Whilst a foe on subsistence rations would more than likely be struggling to stay awake on guard duty after dark.

Secondly most other forces are either handloading their ammunition (including making the gunpowder and caps), or using finite stocks. The KFS most likely has a factory or two churning out reliable 5.56 and 9mm all year round. Even a smallish one would be producing 100,000s if not 1,000,000s of rounds.

Meaning that even the most basic KFS grunt might have fired 200-300 rounds in training. Whilst his most elite foe might only fire 50-100 rounds a year.



KFS soldiers would not only be better shots, but more used to discipline under fire and fire and manoeuvre.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Or issue the AC556's to NCO's and Officers only, keeping Mini14's for average troops.

Yeh I could picture that. I was thinking how when the British army first distributed the Lee Metford bolt action, they included a little chain blocking the magazine release. So soldiers would have to load them more slowly and would only take them off in emergency circumstances. Similarly the old British Imperial shotgun was the bizarre Greener, a weapon with a single shot capacity and multiple safeties to make sure it couldn't be used if stolen without the right ammunition.

[ArmySGT.]

the KFS is the Rih Five. Being Tech level A and able to produce or reproduce any technology up to the time of the War in either 3rd or 4th edition.

The Rich Five did have cryotube tech prior to the War and gained Fusion through taken TMP equipment in the chaos of the early war years.

Prior to the War they appear to have stockpiled Mini-14s, M59 pistols, CETME Machineguns, and rifle grenades. Post war added M102 105mm howitzers, M1 Abrams tanks, M2 Bradley IFVs, M35 2 1/2 ton trucks, and M151 jeeps. The trucks and jeeps might have been stockpiled..... that is unclear. The big prize is the post war capture and reproduction of the P47 Thunderbolt fighters.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus

Meaning that even the most basic KFS grunt might have fired 200-300 rounds in training. Whilst his most elite foe might only fire 50-100 rounds a year.



KFS soldiers would not only be better shots, but more used to discipline under fire and fire and manoeuvre.

That would be more than a non-Infantry soldier going through basic training today.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

That would be more than a non-Infantry soldier going through basi training today.

With the bad habits, only motivated troops(Spartan members) would even try.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

With the bad habits, only motivated troops(Spartan members) would even try.

So the 1970's Draft Army, then?

[Matt W]

After re-reading "Bullets and Bluegrass", it is my impression that the KFS uses multifuel rotary engines for all its vehicles (including the V300, the Bradley and both M60 and M1 tanks. I assume that these "rotary engines" are based on a version of the Wankel engine

(Bullets & Bluegrass page. 9 "All Army and Air Force vehicles use multifuel rotary engines capable of running on virtually any flammable fuel)

However, the powerplant used by the P47 "Thunderbolt" is unspecified. It may simply be a copy of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800. As far as I know, nobody has built a wankel engine with enough power to replace the R-2800, but it may be possible.

I did a little work on a KFS helicopter unit
https://morrowproject.wordpress.com/...ft-helicopter/

and this is to "rescue" crashed planes

https://morrowproject.wordpress.com/...ft-helicopter/

I'm sure that the KFS military would REALLY like a versatile twin engine transport, like a DHC-4 Caribou or even a DC-3 Dakota - but these are not cheap...

Also, it might be amusing to have the KFS build its own hovercraft. "If the Morrow Project has them...We should have them!"

The KFS probably has the capability to build a sizeable hovercraft like the the API https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...oration_AP1-88

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by gamerguy

The early ATGMs would be launched from near but not too close to the operators. They would then fly a path which would intersect a line drawn from the operator's position to the targets. The missile would have a flare in the tail (seen only from behind) and the operator would keep the flare and target lined up until they hit. The operator's control would be a joy stick to guide the missile. This much I know.

Once the missile turns to track the target it would fly in a line which could be traced back to the operator. I believe this was how the Israilis determined where to shoot to surspress the operators and cause the missiles to loose control. They kept some tanks on over watch whose duty it was to engage the missile operators while the rest of the unit advanced.

Once the operator aquires the missile in their sites they become vulnerable to counter battery fire. I think to initially engage the missile there was a wider field of view on the sights which was switched, once the operator had control, to a higher magnification. In order to aquire and track the missiles could not go too fast giving time to react on long range shots, IF the defender is ready. Simple radio controls would be easy to make from discrete components. Based on your timeline (edition) of the game what level of manufacturing would be avaialable to make these components? My assumption is the later the war the less likely anyone in North America could make these and the harder it would be to star and operation up. Lots of specialized components. Wire might be vauluable but it might be the only workable system.

Defenses could range from spaced armour plates, heavy forms of chain link fencing, rebar or slat armour. If we are talking an area close to a "hot" border a lot of methods of overcoming these missiles may already be in place. Mortars are a little harder to protect against.

The anti-Sagger drill for the 1970-80s US Army was for the tank that first spotted the launch signature to immediately fire whatever was in the gun tube at the site, then reload with HE or WP and start firing to either side, the other tank in the section would engage with coax and HMG. At the same time, drivers would engage the vehicle smoke generators and make a hard left or right turn. The tank commander would also fire the first bank of projectiles from the smoke launchers.

The intent was to kill, wound or suppress the missile operator, throw off the operator`s sight picture with a rapid and extreme movement, and finally to obscure the area with smoke, allowing the tanks to use their night vision/thermal sights to locate the operator.

This specific movement was intended for the two tank "light" section bounding forward to contact. The overwatching three tank "heavy" selection would immediately empty their gun tubes to the left and right of the launch sir and then switch to HE and WP rounds. With a half dozen APDS/HEAT rounds, followed up another volley of HE/WP rounds and several bursts of machine gun would throw off the operator.

At the company level, calls would be made for battalion mortars to "hip shoot" the area, followed by a fire mission from the supporting artillery battery.

The Soviets had a similar anti-missile defence. This was what made ATGMs such a pain in the ass, it wasn't the tracked launcher or the man portable missiles, it was the jeep mounted launcher that would fire a round, forcing the anti missile defence and its waste of time in suppressing and deploying, then clearing the area and redeploying for the next movement. In the meantime, the jeep would run back another 1-2 kilometres and start the whole process over and over and over, buying time.

[gamerguy]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

The Soviets had a similar anti-missile defence. This was what made ATGMs such a pain in the ass, it wasn't the tracked launcher or the man portable missiles, it was the jeep mounted launcher that would fire a round, forcing the anti missile defence and its waste of time in suppressing and deploying, then clearing the area and redeploying for the next movement. In the meantime, the jeep would run back another 1-2 kilometres and start the whole process over and over and over, buying time.

Ha! As I was reading it before I got to the last line all I could think of was a launch of dummy missiles or blind un guided launches followed up by real launches after the target(s) has unloaded/spent ammo and smoke dischargers and were blinded/engaged and might miss the follow up missiles. A tactic I used in Air to Air gaming launch two missiles, while the target was engaged in the first it put them out of position to deal with the second.

[gamerguy]

Originally Posted by Matt W

After re-reading "Bullets and Bluegrass", it is my impression that the KFS uses multifuel rotary engines for all its vehicles (including the V300, the Bradley and both M60 and M1 tanks. I assume that these "rotary engines" are based on a version of the Wankel engine

(Bullets & Bluegrass page. 9 "All Army and Air Force vehicles use multifuel rotary engines capable of running on virtually any flammable fuel)

However, the powerplant used by the P47 "Thunderbolt" is unspecified. It may simply be a copy of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800. As far as I know, nobody has built a wankel engine with enough power to replace the R-2800, but it may be possible.

At the time the adventures were originally written John Deere was working on this motor. It was all the rage in the technical journals. I just searched for it. It was a complete no go for all the reasons Mazda spent years and billions getting a OK version of the Wankel into cars. Major hurdles to overcome and a company with deep pockets like JD gave up. Part of the concept was for aircraft use. I can't find power but it was supposed to be tank engine power levels which would have made it suitable for P-47 use.

Just another batch of unobtanium. Unless your project relies heavily on fantasy this is a no go. Also why P-47s? Yeah the game designer had a fetish is the obvious but there are so many more reasonable choices. Easier and cheaper to produce, etc....

Originally Posted by Matt W

I did a little work on a KFS helicopter unit
https://morrowproject.wordpress.com/...ft-helicopter/

and this is to "rescue" crashed planes

https://morrowproject.wordpress.com/...ft-helicopter/

I'm sure that the KFS military would REALLY like a versatile twin engine transport, like a DHC-4 Caribou or even a DC-3 Dakota - but these are not cheap...

Also, it might be amusing to have the KFS build its own hovercraft. "If the Morrow Project has them...We should have them!"

The KFS probably has the capability to build a sizeable hovercraft like the the API https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...oration_AP1-88

Hovercraft are HELLISHLY LOUD. If forces are expecting it they can hide or set up suitable defenses long before the hovercraft arrives. In 'Nam they only used about a half dozen and called it a day. They could get around the Delta fast and bring troops and reinforcements OVER OPEN CALM WATER. Yes they can go over muskeg or swamps UNLESS they are trees in them thar swamps. Anything which can damage the skirts ends the ride. Armour the skirts they become less flexible and less useful over anything above glass smooth water.

Use them in swamps guided by locals VERY aware of the conditions (think ship pilots used when freighters enter harbours or traverse rivers). Use them on sea shores or vary large lakes like the great lakes and yes they work. Middle of the Eastern US where can they operate for any great area? Frankly other than "I gotta have me on" your swamp boats (whatever they are called, flat bottom car motor spinning an aircraft prop in a cage) would be cheaper, as fast and can be sized around for similar capabilities.



I am sorry but I think so much of this post war technology is BS. We only have the ability to do almost all but very basic manufacturing because of the global supply system. It has less to do with left hand widgets are now only made in this town in China (although any game set after 2000 to 2010 would be there) than it is supplies of raw resources would not be flowing, and those that would, would be so limited in quantities almost nothing would be produced. I really think this is one area all MP people like to ignore.

Immediately post war there will be stockpiles of resources in any minor city. You could get things made for the first 10 or 20 years. Then either the stockpiles will be depleted or more likely they will be lost as just getting food for tomorrow takes all your effort and attention. Buildings collapse, mother earth overgrows almost all that remains, etc..

Even the lowest tech like vacuum tubes takes resources that won't be there. Transistors, forget it. Too much stuff is needed. Over the years anything working will be used up. That surviving Radio Shack you been picking over for SCRs for a whatever will be empty and overgrown in 25 years. You are not getting that unobtanium from Walla Walla land anymore. None, nada, period!

So if you really come out 150 years on and WORLD WIDE commerce is NOT back to where is was at the start of the 20th century AT LEAST you will be lucky to have basic iron and steel making, plows, steam, waterwheels and muscle. Cars, forget it. Horse and buggies. Tanks, APCs, planes, fantasy. I don't care how high tech you are you ain't got the stuff to make it, mine it or refine it. At best deposits are in North America of exploitable minerals. Provided they were not where the big glowy parts were. Look into the processes needed to explore (less of an issue), obtain (in viable quantities), process and manufacture any raw resource.

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade but nobody seems to want to face this. TMP comes out of its bolt holes they can be gods. KFC or whatever they are called are riding horses using 50 year old worn out guns with lots of ammo they are not allowed to fire through because the guns gotta last another 100 years so you are only allowed to fire 10 shots per year. OK brass, lead, iron gunpowder can be made. Where is the USEABLE quantities of manganese, niobium, chrome, boron etc. needed to produce the steel for the guns or the machine tools needed to produce the guns coming from?

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by gamerguy

Ha! As I was reading it before I got to the last line all I could think of was a launch of dummy missiles or blind un guided launches followed up by real launches after the target(s) has unloaded/spent ammo and smoke dischargers and were blinded/engaged and might miss the follow up missiles. A tactic I used in Air to Air gaming launch two missiles, while the target was engaged in the first it put them out of position to deal with the second.

There were simulators issued that could duplicate a TOW/Dragon launch, in cases of 12.

They favourite tactic was to fire a series of 2-4 and in the middle of the series, fire the real missile and after the hit bogie out of the area.

[dragoon500ly]

In the armoured cavalry squadrons, the cavalry platoons would deploy with a M-901 TOW track and a M-113 Dragon track for close protection. The TOEs would fire at 2-3000 meters, often remaining for.a.second shot.

The four tank section would deploy a two tank element about 1,500 meters out and would rapid fire 2-3 rounds and fall back to the next fighting position, the second tank element would repeat the process while toe TOWS would reload and engage or fall back to an overwatching position.

The intent was to.keep the Soviets off balance, picking off 2-3 vehicles each time and forcing them to deploy and call in support.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by gamerguy

So if you really come out 150 years on and WORLD WIDE commerce is NOT back to where is was at the start of the 20th century AT LEAST you will be lucky to have basic iron and steel making, plows, steam, waterwheels and muscle. Cars, forget it. Horse and buggies. Tanks, APCs, planes, fantasy. I don't care how high tech you are you ain't got the stuff to make it, mine it or refine it. At best deposits are in North America of exploitable minerals. Provided they were not where the big glowy parts were. Look into the processes needed to explore (less of an issue), obtain (in viable quantities), process and manufacture any raw resource.

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade but nobody seems to want to face this. TMP comes out of its bolt holes they can be gods. KFC or whatever they are called are riding horses using 50 year old worn out guns with lots of ammo they are not allowed to fire through because the guns gotta last another 100 years so you are only allowed to fire 10 shots per year. OK brass, lead, iron gunpowder can be made. Where is the USEABLE quantities of manganese, niobium, chrome, boron etc. needed to produce the steel for the guns or the machine tools needed to produce the guns coming from?

With any other faction, I would agree with you.

Not in the case of the Kentucky Free States, also known as the Rich Five.

Five Industrialist with a Robber Baron attitude went into cryosleep with two thousand loyal followers and preserved industrial capacity.

The KFS is the only functioning government above small town; and an actual Nation State. They have no problem using slaves and condemned criminals to salvage material out of radioactive hot spots or other lethal areas.

The KFS preserved the people with the knowledge and the skills to make or refine just about anything. It is the only other Tech level A group besides the Morrow Project, in game. While it is true they are scavengers, it is also true that they are manufacturers too. All very low rate and on a, as needed, schedule.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

With any other faction, I would agree with you.

Not in the case of the Kentucky Free States, also known as the Rich Five.

Five Industrialist with a Robber Baron attitude went into cryosleep with two thousand loyal followers and preserved industrial capacity.

The KFS is the only functioning government above small town; and an actual Nation State. They have no problem using slaves and condemned criminals to salvage material out of radioactive hot spots or other lethal areas.

The KFS preserved the people with the knowledge and the skills to make or refine just about anything. It is the only other Tech level A group besides the Morrow Project, in game. While it is true they are scavengers, it is also true that they are manufacturers too. All very low rate and on a, as needed, schedule.

The KFS could easily machine new small arms and ammunition. Using a M series multi-fuel truck engine design to convert the M60 diesel to multi fuel is also doable. They are reverse engineering with modern resources. The rifles are old because they won't replace them, not because they can't replace them.

[gamerguy]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

With any other faction, I would agree with you.

Not in the case of the Kentucky Free States, also known as the Rich Five.

Five Industrialist with a Robber Baron attitude went into cryosleep with two thousand loyal followers and preserved industrial capacity.

The KFS is the only functioning government above small town; and an actual Nation State. They have no problem using slaves and condemned criminals to salvage material out of radioactive hot spots or other lethal areas.

The KFS preserved the people with the knowledge and the skills to make or refine just about anything. It is the only other Tech level A group besides the Morrow Project, in game. While it is true they are scavengers, it is also true that they are manufacturers too. All very low rate and on a, as needed, schedule.

As far as the group it would have to be beyond Morrow Project in size and capacity. All the discussions we have had about keeping the MP off people's radar would be magnified by an order or more magnitude. PLUS it is all being put in a limited are as opposed to MP's dispersion. To pull this off they would be spending something on the order of a trillion dollars. So would TMP.

To manufacture what you are talking about you are talking a hundred thousand knowledgeable people plus all the dependants. You are building a new city somewhere which will quickly have an SSBN something pointed at it.

Two thousand loyal followers gets you the managers for your operation, not the people with the hands on skills. Can't get that from books.

I work in the manufacturing industry and know how many knowledgeable people it takes to do a little manufacturing. The scale you describe (M1s, unlimited ammo, planes) takes layers upon layers of interlocking skills and manufacturing infrastructure. Yes a handful of guys can probably cover all the steel hardening required (my area of knowledge). But you need groups of specialized maintenance personnel (who we just phone and wait a week or two to show up), guys making parts and supplies for our machines, a regular and reliable source of natural gas, propane, and all that entails (lots more people equipment companies, support companies), chemicals, steel, pipe, tooling, and on and on. All these people don't feed anyone but need to be fed as does their families, barbers, plumbers, ...

All this ain't hiding in some little hole in the ground. What you are describing is North America. Yes you are talking a dozen tanks not thousands but the infrastructure of that scale is needed for so much of it.

Unless it was my PMs interpretation I was under the impression Krell was running a large (multi-state) empire. Based on my interactions manufacture was limited to pre WWII tech from salvage.

Please note I was a player not a PM and had/have nothing but the original 1979? pre publication loose leaf binder manual. I made it a point not to ruin the fun of discovery.

My issue is keeping this from turning into high fantasy. You guys are getting so wrapped up in the tech gizmos to very high levels of detail but to my mind are missing "the big picture". I may be wrong, it happened once before, all I am trying to do is have you stop and think about the real world implications. TMP is frankly a science fantasy game. Everything BEM is supposed to have brought back is that so truthfully letting some other faction(s) have some degree of it in the game is fair I suppose. I can live with TMPs goodies just in my mind it was supposed to be the special ones. How long before NK had a buried clan of Kim group, etc..

If you also hold the assumption BEM knew the project was going on in 150 years and lied about the 6 month to 5 year time frame then another can of worms is both opened and closed.

The order of manufacturing support you envision is orders of magnitude beyond TMP. TMP made HAM suits, the Mars vehicles, sci one yes and had to hide those in plain site as "failed prototypes". We dumped them in the ocean/desert/buried them when they failed. BUT TMP wasn't making the steel, machine tools, optics, electronics, chemicals... these were bought from XYZ corp. Now you have to create XYZ corp as part of KFS because there is no XYZ to buy from anymore.

[gamerguy]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

The KFS could easily machine new small arms and ammunition. Using a M series multi-fuel truck engine design to convert the M60 diesel to multi fuel is also doable. They are reverse engineering with modern resources. The rifles are old because they won't replace them, not because they can't replace them.

With what? Who is making the specialized steel for the guns, doing the heat treating, sourcing vanadium, providing cutting tools? All this and vast more resources have to be part of KFS. What "modern resources"? This is all being done after the big balloon goes up. How many profs does your university have to teach all this? You have UniversitIES right? It is generations we are talking here.

I loved this game from before it was published but as per my other very long winded rant it is morphing into wilder science fantasy to meet the needs of a couple adventures.

If I am becoming a big thorn let me know and I will shut up. I have been out of it for thirty years so what say do I have?

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by gamerguy

The order of manufacturing support you envision is orders of magnitude beyond TMP. TMP made HAM suits, the Mars vehicles, sci one yes and had to hide those in plain site as "failed prototypes". We dumped them in the ocean/desert/buried them when they failed. BUT TMP wasn't making the steel, machine tools, optics, electronics, chemicals... these were bought from XYZ corp. Now you have to create XYZ corp as part of KFS because there is no XYZ to buy from anymore.

You hold a much different view of TMP than I think some here do. BEM approached various industrialist to form the Counsel of Tomorrow (CoT). TMP was just a small thing that CoT built using a fraction of their vast mining, manufacturing, research and development capacity. Some of the gear for TMP came from working examples and plans that BEM brought back back from a future and were duplicated by CoT skunkworks. As far as I can tell, TMP just selected and trained people to use cool gear made by the CoT. TMP really doesn't make things itself. So the CoT having members like US Steel or Nucor is not impossible. You can add Bethlehem Steel if you like the 3rd edition timeline. Given that and organizations that have a large manufacturing presence like Boeing, Lockheed, GM, Ford, Motorola, Raytheon, Bristol-Meyer, Pfizer, Dow Corning; steel pre-war and manufacturing capability is not much of an issue. Granted, CoT members knew that most of their employees were going to die, but thanks to their efforts the reconstruction had a chance.

[gamerguy]

Fair enough so TMP is even a smaller entity. More of a design house which outsources manufacturing. KFS has be all the above.

[RandyT0001]

Gamerguy, basically you are saying that the highest technology level in limited use would max out at mid-19th century. Most areas would be stuck in mid-18th century to early 19th century, correct?

Do you think that there would be small, isolated communities (less than 20sq miles controlled area) with very little trade or do you think that there would be bigger city-states (few thousands of sq miles of domain) with greater trade along rivers, maintained dirt/gravel roads and early railroads with early steam engines?