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#61
10-23-2020, 01:51 AM
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Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom 
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#62
10-23-2020, 01:53 AM
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Of course the books specifically state EMP screwed up everything, INCLUDING items which were supposed to be shielded.
T2k is NOT the real world. The physics, while similar, are different. What we can expect to survive IRL did not in T2k. Again, this is stated in the game books! The world is a mess. EVERYTHING is either destroyed, worn out or in very, very short supply. I really shouldn't have to be reminding people of this (again) as it's a core part of Twilight:2000!
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#64
10-23-2020, 07:42 AM
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No that doesnt mean you can easily rewire the electronic village. Yes it does mean that you will see some interesting jury rigs/MacGyvers/A-Team "those idiots locked us up in a room with welding equipment" devices - for instance UAV's and drones - if you can get the right people and the spare parts they need together in the same place FYI thats where Operation Reset comes from in Africa - i.e. there wont be any resupply from the US so they send out teams to find weapons, fuel, spare parts, electronics that could be used for other applications, etc. Obviously the same thing would be happening here in the US - I dont see the Colorado Springs govt or New America or CivGov just sitting on their butts and not sending out teams (i.e. the players) to get what is needed to keep their vehicles/planes/electronics/etc. going and offers all kinds of ideas for salvage missions for GM's
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#65
10-23-2020, 07:48 AM
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#66
10-23-2020, 10:25 AM
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So I guess what I am getting to is that it looks like there are very different ways people look at the same source material, and that is fine.
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#67
10-23-2020, 11:08 AM
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This happened THOUSANDS OF MILES from detonations. Even shielded equipment was damaged. How much clearer do you need?
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#68
10-23-2020, 11:26 AM
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#69
10-23-2020, 11:31 AM
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#70
10-23-2020, 12:03 PM
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Legbreaker wants to play Aftermath then he should play Aftermath. The rules state a lot of things - but they also state there are working vehicles that have electronic ignitions, working reactors (Colorado Springs, the USS Virginia), that there was power still being generated in the US in 1998 in places AFTER the TDM, that there are still jet aircraft flying (and that it was fuel and spare part issues not fried electrical systems that made the military park them), that there are missiles that still work, targeting systems, etc. that still work
In Germany - where there were a hell of a lot of nuke detonations - there is a reactor that is being put back online- which is pretty hard to do if all electronic systems were fried and gone for thousands of miles. Also France still has power as does Belgium - again very hard to do if all electrical systems for thousands of miles were fried. And Great Britain managed to get power working again on their oil platforms to make them operational And FYI Bash is right - the M88A1 and M88A2 - both vehicles that I was directly responsible for - have literally no electrical systems that can be fried by EMP except their radios. It would be the same with all kinds of older systems - i.e. that P-51 sitting at the airfield wouldnt be affected at all. Neither would that old Sherman tank. Or a car built before they used electronic ignitions. Or the systems that ran the power generators at Niagara Falls - all very old equipment that EMP would basically leave untouched.
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#71
10-23-2020, 12:16 PM
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Thread Lock Warning
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This is why sarcasm is mentioned in the Keep it Civil Forum guideline (already posted in this thread by a moderator). Sarcasm often doesn't come across the playful, good-natured reparte that the author may intend. Also, most people don't enjoy sarcasm directed towards a serious comment that they made. At worst, sarcasm is intended, yet deniable, rudeness. I will not make a public judgment about the intent of the quoted material, but I know it came across to me, a neutral. There's been some really helpful information shared in this thread. A lot of the discussion here has been quite constructive. I really don't want to lock this thread, but a few posters are apparently growing quite agitated. Please take a deep breath and remember that we are talking about a game- one that involves liberal doses of make-believe and play acting- before posting a response to something that rankles. If a member insists on continuing to willfully ignore forum guidelines, then a ban will be in order. Admin. -
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 10-23-2020 at 12:35 PM.
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#72
10-23-2020, 12:36 PM
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The book says some extent, not total darkness like revolution. However every GM is responsible for there own world. In mine I choose to limit the extent that players can get ahold of certain objects like a nuclear warhead. I have US military friends that when we talk about the game they will bring up points like tobyhanna isnt just a facility in Pennsylvania but that they have large stockpiles around the world, along with ammo dumps etc. I have that there some areas that are sitting on large stocks.
For example a port facility with enough equipment to say outfit 5000 men with BDUs and basic load equipment. The problem was that the transportation network broke down. so here is a few hundred soldiers and sailors living there life surviving off these supplies of mres or whatever they have because no one has shown up to use these supplies to help out, or they have gone rouge and they are building there own empire, or they died of disease and the quarintine signs and skeletal remains have scared everyone away so it remains untouched. I have limited access to advanced electronic, I use the book rules for availability, and if its a successful role for said item i determine by what the item is how much is available. For example prc77 radio. This vender in the market has said item, its a small market so 1d6 tells me how many he has. Buyer beware as he sold you 4 and only 2 work properly as you didnt check it out before you left the shop. crooks are crooks after all. Again its your world do what you want.
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#73
10-23-2020, 01:12 PM
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I mean most of my games, unless it was a major plot point in the campaign. We didn't think much about crunchier parts of the rule book about supplies or even survival since the rules crunching and book keeping can get complicated that way. Most of the TTRPGS that I have played, depending on the feel of the crowd and the attitude of the DM/GM, keep some or toss other rules unless it becomes a plot point to have dice thrown and the book keeping completed. Quote:
_______________________________ At this point the discussion really seems to be about the fact that if your GM and your party want to have a drone. It should be allowed with the applicable hand waving of how to get the parts, fuel, maintenance items around. Recognizing that the Tw2K world isn't the same one we saw in the real life. The Tw2K timeline has allowed for technology that was just on paper when it was written or was just starting to enter prototype, but didn't make it past that point to enter full service in real life. With the respect to drones, they weren't popular in the 1980s except for targets and selected recon efforts by three letter intelligence agencies. It wasn't until post Kosovo where drones and the talk of them being used and the advances in the technology as we see now in the current wars overseas.
__________________
Hey, Law and Order's a team, man. He finds the bombs, I drive the car. We tried the other way, but it didn't work. Last edited by Southernap; 10-23-2020 at 01:12 PM. Reason: typo fix
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#74
10-23-2020, 01:31 PM
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Well obviously GDW authors werent all talking to each other - i.e. if the EMP fried so much then why are there working vehicles that have electronic ignitions, working reactors (Colorado Springs, the USS Virginia), that there was power still being generated in the US in 1998 in places AFTER the TDM, that there are still jet aircraft flying (and that it was fuel and spare part issues not fried electrical systems that made the military park them), that there are missiles that still work, targeting systems, etc. that still work?
And the 194th isnt just at Cairo and Robinson - if you go by Challenge Magazine they are also sending in patrols deep into Ohio as well - and any EMP that fried communication systems would have probably fried the targeting systems on the M1 tanks. Like I said GDW continuity errors between their various Twilight 2000 releases had enough plot holes to drive (literally) a Sherman tank thru (or Cromwell or Panther or T-34 for our friends in other countries) as a result. However a nation almost devoid of working modern electrical devices - no that is definitely NOT what GDW describes - for one because several of their own releases contradict themselves on that. Not the least of which is Last Submarine - i.e. how did they refit her if most electronics were fried by EMP. The issues the sub had were with insufficient manning in the rest of the trilogy - not insufficient electronics to get her fitted out. Oh and HW and I are not friends (shocker to those who have followed my posts) - Loren didnt really do a good job of explaining why no military unit in the US managed to grow in size when the only game in town to get fed in many areas is to join the army. Or where 41000 of the 43000 that got brought home from Europe went to. Or what happened to a hell of a lot of National Guard and Reservist units that would have definitely been mobilized long before. Or that fact that his timeline didnt work with at least two of released modules that preceded it - So I gave up a long time ago trying to apply logic to make sense of the multiple contradictions between HW and multiple previous releases. And then the 2nd edition came out and didnt mention New America or the HW/Kidnapped drought at all so not even sure for V2.2 if they even exist. Last edited by Olefin; 10-23-2020 at 03:14 PM.
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#75
10-23-2020, 03:20 PM
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#76
10-23-2020, 08:25 PM
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Sarcasm doesn't translate to text very well, your ability to misunderstand that doesn't help your message.
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#77
10-23-2020, 08:29 PM
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I think much of this discussion really needs to be a separate thread. It covers much greater ground than the original concept of "drones in T2k" and seems to be intent on exploring those larger issues.
Last edited by StainlessSteelCynic; 10-23-2020 at 09:10 PM. Reason: grammar
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#79
06-28-2021, 09:34 AM
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__________________
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
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#80
06-29-2021, 06:04 AM
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Well, depending when your timeline deviates (1995 to 1997), UAVs were not in widespread use with most militaries. Besides target drones and artillery drones, which both ran pre-programed courses, there was basically just the RQ-2 Pioneer and the RQ-1 Predator (in order of appearance). The Russians/Soviets didn't even have that and use of these UAVs was basically limited to very few USAF squadrons.
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Liber et infractus
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#81
06-29-2021, 09:44 AM
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#82
06-29-2021, 04:35 PM
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With respect to the US: Were there non-artillery UAV in service with US armed forces before the RQ-1B predator? Certainly. Were they part of a unified strategy or available to battlefield commanders? Not so much. Yes, there were things like the QH-50 DASH, which aimed at naval ASW, but it performed significantly worse than contemporary helicopters and offered little in terms what we today think of as strength of UAVs, e. g. data links to other weapon systems of the (literal) mother ship, high endurance or range. The DASH, while later equipped with TV-cameras, initially was a simpe radio controlled helicopter with a range of 71 nm and a cruising speed of just over 40 nm, that was used to lob two anemic Mk. 44 torpedoes into the vicinity of a detected 1960s submarine. While later a single Mk. 46 torpedo could be carried, its endurance of just one hour and missing sensors meant that it was nothing more than an instrument to bring a weapon into an area. Helicopters and ASROC missiles did and do the same. Other US drones before the RQ-2 were usually artillery drones or other reconnaissance drones, e. g. the Ryan Firebee or the D-21, which was a strategic recon drone and did not offer its capabilities to battlefield commanders. Also, drones of this age were not really featuring hardened electronics, so their use in post-nuclear warfare is uncertain. Nothing of this arsenal would offer capabilities for SAR (i. e. 'search and rescue') to commanders in a T2K universe. Additionally, what SAR roles do we see in T2K at all? There are hardly pilots downed in that setting since airplanes are almost extinct and coordinated military actions are pretty much non-existent. So, what "small reconnaissance drones" would exist and for what purpose and who would (be able to) use them.
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Liber et infractus
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#83
06-29-2021, 08:29 PM
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The RQ-2 (which entered service 9 years before the RQ-1) was common enough that during the first Gulf War at least one was in the air for the entirety of the war. It was originally a gunnery spotter, but evolved into reconnaissance and surveillance roles. With its IR camera it was used to patrol the border to locate troop concentrations, and it also collected map data for Tomahawks to use.
On the smaller end of Desert Storm-era drones were the Exdrone (now BQM-147 Dragon) and the FQM-151 Pointer, which was very short-ranged but also easily man-portable at just 9 pounds of weight. The Pointer would continue to see use up through the 2003 invasion of Iraq. By the mid-90s, there were the handful of RQ-5 Hunters and the introduction of the Predator. 1998 saw the RQ-4 Global Hawk enter service, selected over the RQ-3 Dark Star because range and payload were picked over stealth. For non-American drones, I know of a pair that were used in the first Gulf War - Canada's Canadair CL-89 (used as the Midge by the British) and France's Altec MART.
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The poster formerly known as The Dark The Vespers War - Ninety years before the Twilight War, there was the Vespers War.
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#84
06-29-2021, 09:50 PM
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FYI if we are going to discuss drones they should be in a different thread.
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#85
06-30-2021, 07:35 AM
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Liber et infractus
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#86
06-30-2021, 10:21 AM
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#87
06-30-2021, 03:46 PM
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For the hand-launched Pointer, the number bought was small because it was quickly superseded by improved versions. The 50 Pointers (full production deliveries starting in 1990) were replaced by RQ-11 Ravens (originally an FQM-151 upgrade in 1999, officially introduced in 2003) and RQ-20 Pumas (2008), which had production numbers in the thousands (Puma) to tens of thousands (Raven). A timeline where that development was cut short by war would have seen resources diverted to production of what was available at the time (Pointer). Even a primitive drone like that would be useful for short-distance recon (the control station's range was ~5 miles), particularly since it could carry an infrared camera.
I also found a report from 2003 discussing all the American drones that had been deployed since 1991. By first use in a combat theater: RQ-2 Pioneer - 1991 FQM-151 Pointer - 1991 RQ-1 Predator - 1995 RQ-5 Hunter - 1999 MQ-1 Predator - 2001 RQ-4 Global Hawk - 2001 RQ-14 Dragon Eye - 2003 Desert Hawk - 2003 RQ-7 Shadow - 2003 Depending on when one sets their Twilight War will help with figuring out which drones would be most available.
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The poster formerly known as The Dark The Vespers War - Ninety years before the Twilight War, there was the Vespers War.
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#88
07-01-2021, 11:53 AM
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Hm, I admit, I did not have the Pointer on my radar (cheap pun, sorry for that). That I could see work in T2K fairly well. The rest remains rather unlikely to me. Even a Predator needs (remote) pilots and technicians. Once the armed forces start pulling all non-essential personnel into the combat troops, after those have been hemorrhaged by nukes, I don't see enough qualified personnel to keep drones of that size flying. Not to mention production of spare parts, training new personnel, replacing specialized tools etc.
A civilian sportsplane or a O-2 Skymaster (or similar) I see much more likely than UAVs as they are much easier to service, spare parts are ubiquitous or can be build in a electronic-free environment and comparable types of planes and thus capale pilots were widely available. Also, such aircraft are multi-mission capable: transport, CAS, recon, FAC, liason, all within body. Sure, range is less than with some UAV, but since there is hardly military left with reach and range beyond operational level, your regular civilian sports plane will more than suffice.
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Liber et infractus
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#89
07-01-2021, 02:26 PM
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#90
07-02-2021, 09:12 AM
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__________________
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