Drones and UAVs in T2K

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

Well, depending when your timeline deviates (1995 to 1997), UAVs were not in widespread use with most militaries. Besides target drones and artillery drones, which both ran pre-programed courses, there was basically just the RQ-2 Pioneer and the RQ-1 Predator (in order of appearance). The Russians/Soviets didn't even have that and use of these UAVs was basically limited to very few USAF squadrons.

There were more UAV's out there than you think - Israel had the IAI Scout and the Tadiran Mastiff. And the US was using drones for recon as early as the Vietnam War - and they werent target or artillery drones.

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Olefin

There were more UAV's out there than you think - Israel had the IAI Scout and the Tadiran Mastiff. And the US was using drones for recon as early as the Vietnam War - and they werent target or artillery drones.

Were there more than I mentioned? Yes. Were they in widespread use? No, certainly not. You named the two prominent IDF examples, which played a role from the early 80s onwards. Yes, the Tadiran Mastiff was first flown in 1973, but that's not the same as an operational UAV that was fulfilling a defined role within the IDF.

With respect to the US: Were there non-artillery UAV in service with US armed forces before the RQ-1B predator? Certainly. Were they part of a unified strategy or available to battlefield commanders? Not so much. Yes, there were things like the QH-50 DASH, which aimed at naval ASW, but it performed significantly worse than contemporary helicopters and offered little in terms what we today think of as strength of UAVs, e. g. data links to other weapon systems of the (literal) mother ship, high endurance or range.

The DASH, while later equipped with TV-cameras, initially was a simpe radio controlled helicopter with a range of 71 nm and a cruising speed of just over 40 nm, that was used to lob two anemic Mk. 44 torpedoes into the vicinity of a detected 1960s submarine. While later a single Mk. 46 torpedo could be carried, its endurance of just one hour and missing sensors meant that it was nothing more than an instrument to bring a weapon into an area. Helicopters and ASROC missiles did and do the same. Other US drones before the RQ-2 were usually artillery drones or other reconnaissance drones, e. g. the Ryan Firebee or the D-21, which was a strategic recon drone and did not offer its capabilities to battlefield commanders. Also, drones of this age were not really featuring hardened electronics, so their use in post-nuclear warfare is uncertain.

Nothing of this arsenal would offer capabilities for SAR (i. e. 'search and rescue') to commanders in a T2K universe. Additionally, what SAR roles do we see in T2K at all? There are hardly pilots downed in that setting since airplanes are almost extinct and coordinated military actions are pretty much non-existent. So, what "small reconnaissance drones" would exist and for what purpose and who would (be able to) use them.

[Vespers War]

The RQ-2 (which entered service 9 years before the RQ-1) was common enough that during the first Gulf War at least one was in the air for the entirety of the war. It was originally a gunnery spotter, but evolved into reconnaissance and surveillance roles. With its IR camera it was used to patrol the border to locate troop concentrations, and it also collected map data for Tomahawks to use.

On the smaller end of Desert Storm-era drones were the Exdrone (now BQM-147 Dragon) and the FQM-151 Pointer, which was very short-ranged but also easily man-portable at just 9 pounds of weight. The Pointer would continue to see use up through the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

By the mid-90s, there were the handful of RQ-5 Hunters and the introduction of the Predator. 1998 saw the RQ-4 Global Hawk enter service, selected over the RQ-3 Dark Star because range and payload were picked over stealth.

For non-American drones, I know of a pair that were used in the first Gulf War - Canada's Canadair CL-89 (used as the Midge by the British) and France's Altec MART.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

The RQ-2 (which entered service 9 years before the RQ-1) was common enough that during the first Gulf War at least one was in the air for the entirety of the war. It was originally a gunnery spotter, but evolved into reconnaissance and surveillance roles. With its IR camera it was used to patrol the border to locate troop concentrations, and it also collected map data for Tomahawks to use.

On the smaller end of Desert Storm-era drones were the Exdrone (now BQM-147 Dragon) and the FQM-151 Pointer, which was very short-ranged but also easily man-portable at just 9 pounds of weight. The Pointer would continue to see use up through the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

By the mid-90s, there were the handful of RQ-5 Hunters and the introduction of the Predator. 1998 saw the RQ-4 Global Hawk enter service, selected over the RQ-3 Dark Star because range and payload were picked over stealth.

For non-American drones, I know of a pair that were used in the first Gulf War - Canada's Canadair CL-89 (used as the Midge by the British) and France's Altec MART.

And given the war start you can bet the Global Hawk would have had its development and deployment pushed forward - meaning it would have probably been in service in 1996-1997 before the TDM.

FYI if we are going to discuss drones they should be in a different thread.

[Ursus Maior]

By the mid-90s, there were the handful of [...]

And that's exactly my point. Drones as we know them today were available as "handfulls", their electronics were not as hardened as that of jets and their use in combat after the nukes would have gone off are highly questionable, as is the ability of the US, Israel and comparable nations to further produce them, especially for the use of SAR. And that was the starting point of the discussion.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

And that's exactly my point. Drones as we know them today were available as "handfulls", their electronics were not as hardened as that of jets and their use in combat after the nukes would have gone off are highly questionable, as is the ability of the US, Israel and comparable nations to further produce them, especially for the use of SAR. And that was the starting point of the discussion.

I would say if anything the US and other countries would use their scarce resources even more to keep them going after the TDM - for one not all electronics are fried and there would be a lot you can salvage that would still be useable - and the drones and UAV's are a hell of a lot more attractive in a low fuel situation than manned jets are. Plus they can operate from places that most planes (sans the A-10 or Harrier) cant use

[Vespers War]

For the hand-launched Pointer, the number bought was small because it was quickly superseded by improved versions. The 50 Pointers (full production deliveries starting in 1990) were replaced by RQ-11 Ravens (originally an FQM-151 upgrade in 1999, officially introduced in 2003) and RQ-20 Pumas (2008), which had production numbers in the thousands (Puma) to tens of thousands (Raven). A timeline where that development was cut short by war would have seen resources diverted to production of what was available at the time (Pointer). Even a primitive drone like that would be useful for short-distance recon (the control station's range was ~5 miles), particularly since it could carry an infrared camera.

I also found a report from 2003 discussing all the American drones that had been deployed since 1991. By first use in a combat theater:
RQ-2 Pioneer - 1991
FQM-151 Pointer - 1991
RQ-1 Predator - 1995
RQ-5 Hunter - 1999
MQ-1 Predator - 2001
RQ-4 Global Hawk - 2001
RQ-14 Dragon Eye - 2003
Desert Hawk - 2003
RQ-7 Shadow - 2003

Depending on when one sets their Twilight War will help with figuring out which drones would be most available.