The 40th Infantry Division

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by Olefin

ArmySgt if you are not using canon then you are doing an apples versus oranges argument - we have been using canon and writing the Littlefield Collection into it

a) San Francisco was not nuked - Howling Wilderness specifically mentions the city government is still around and active well into late 2001

b) CA nuke sites - canonical

El Segundo, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (1.75 Mt).
Richmond, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (one 1.5 Mt).
Carson, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.75 Kt).
Avon, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Torrance, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Wilmington, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (1.25 Mt).
Benicia, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Martinez, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Vandenberg AFB, CA: Recon Satellite Launch Facilities (1 Mt,
ground burst).
March AFB, CA: 15th Air Force Headquarters (1 Mt).

The bolded nuke sites are all within 30 miles of San Francisco (and Richmond is less than 15 miles away). Most of San Francisco would suffer light damage from the Richmond blast (even if it was multiple smaller blasts, the damage would likely reach to the Mission District). It may not have been directly hit, but it would have repercussions both directly from the blast and indirectly from refugees. The main power plant in the city is within the damage zone.

However, the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation wasn't actually in San Francisco. It was in Portola Valley, about 40 miles south. It was, in fact, very close to the spot on the v2.2 map marked "Wilmington" (which appears to be misplaced and appears to be somewhere in the vicinity of Cupertino). If we accept the list over the map, the MVTF should be OK, since it's far enough south to avoid the San Francisco blasts. However, if the map is correct and the Wilmington strike deviated, the MVTF was likely damaged and without clear road connections to anywhere but San Francisco, since a blast near Cupertino would have a 5 psi overpressure cover from the mountains to the bay.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

ArmySgt if you are not using canon then you are doing an apples versus oranges argument - we have been using canon and writing the Littlefield Collection into it

Originally Posted by Olefin

I have read the description of CA in Howling Wilderness and frankly the description of California contradicts itself about ten times - it makes it sounds like almost no food gets grown then says they grow about 50 percent of normal food levels - well sorry but if the state is growing that much food after LA got massively depopulated then there is NO STARVATION in the state - so for CA I definitely ignore HW

You demand others adhere 100% to the games canon timeline and events, then exempt yourself. Then chutzpah be offended that others point out the flaws in that same canon that they too would definitely ignore.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Now if you dont follow canon and want to play your own game and own timeline then none of what I just posted matters - but if you are following at least some of the canon that is what you have to deal with - especially if you are like me and Raellus and want to write more canon material for the game - but if you are just playing your own campaign you can ignore as much of that as you like

Leaves one breathless.

Originally Posted by Raellus

I've lived in Tucson for 25 years. By and large, the rather sizeable Latino community here would, in a T2K scenario, fight for the U.S.A., if they were to fight at all. I reckon that's true in most of the American Southwest. I don't think a simple binary white v. latino militia viewpoint is fair or accurate. That kind of thinking, in 1942, led to Japanese internment.

I have been in heavy equipment for 10 years now doing roads, pipe line, and gravel pits. The crews are ¾ Mexican including the Superintendents. I have personal up front working experience with the same. I just have the feel that if they could get the opportunity to knock some pride out of America for the last to centuries of Imperialism, they would do so. That goes for those born in Mexico or the second generation. By the third generation, I feel their roots and loyalty sways to the U.S.A.

Now having lived in Trinidad, Colorado, the Latino population there are born from Spanish migrants from before Mexico existed and truly dislike the Mexicans (or being called one).

Originally Posted by Raellus

Agreed. I've always been an apologist for the Mexican invasion. I think it could have worked and been as successful as described in the T2K materials, with or without beefing up MA armored forces.

I do too. I feel their well equipped to fight as highly mobile Cavalry supported by artillery, very good human intelligence, and a working logistics.

They saw the changes coming and smartly scrapped the M3A1s and M5s replacing those with the ERC -90 in the 1980s. I don't see why it is difficult to put faith in their doctrine, logistics, and training. That would only gain more importance to them in the V1 time line with Latin America arming up and rattling sabers in the 90s.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Hey if you dont like the nuke pattern go tell that to Marc Miller and Frank Frey and Frank Chadwick - they are still around on facebook - and I dont like HW because frankly the weather idea is non-nonsensical and if you follow what it says about how little food is left you are looking at the total destruction of the US for about 200 years or so given what little would be left of the population - doesnt take a math genius to say that if the population is already down by 50 percent and there is only enough food for a quarter of them that means you have 12.5 percent of the US population left - and that doesnt factor in disease, fighting for the remaining food, areas under foreign occupation, etc.

This isn't realistic given the world situation in 2000? The areas of the U.S. That produce food or the energy to make food are occupied, nuked, or under fallout. The Mid west and California for major food exporters and Texas for energy. There isn't fuel for tractors if there was anyone left there with the knowledge to operate them. Even in the 90s we had idiots that did not know the food in grocery stores came from farms. There isn't power to run the canneries even if there was food to put into cans. Everyone is making do locally with what they make locally as productions, and transportation is deeply curtailed. It takes hundreds of gallons of fuel to grow xrops and harvest them, let alone that our system of farming takes huge amounts of ammonium nitrate from the petroleum industry. No refineries, then no ANFO and the harvest yields drop off signifiantly. Assuming that the required monoxulture hybrid seeds are available at all, those suffer the same penalties as a farmer growing food or feed.

Originally Posted by Olefin

sorry but given that kind of holocaust there is no way that less than two hundreds years later the US is not only back together but back in space and going faster than light

2300 doesn't match up with T2K enough to really say one follows the other as canon.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and as I pointed out his own description of CA contradicted itself - but that doesnt change the nuke attack history or the Mexican invasion - both of which are separate from his state by state description of what he says will happen after April 2001

I have said that I give the writers their due in what they wrote AT THE TIME. We take for granted the information that we have available for us today.

That doesn't prelude one from adding strikes that a competent Soviet command would have done.

Looking at Vandenberg or March any system used to nuke those had to pass over more important targets. So there isn't any reasoning for them being something land based or sub launched could not target. The strikes on refineries demonstrates a willingness to kill civilians by the truck load. Vandenberg is mostly NASA and March had KC-10As in the 90s. Neither of those justifies using a nuke there and leaving a naval shipyard with a dry dock able to support repairs up to nuclear carriers. Nuking Vandenberg? So what! The gantries, radar, communications are so spread out that without using 10 or 20 warheads the place can be rebuilt in a year after the fallout has decayed.

Originally Posted by Olefin

but since GDW never released another canon US module after April 2001 date I pretty much ignore anything past that date - but the I dont ignore the nuke attacks or the events from June 2000 to April 2001 or the Mexican invasion and its effects - that is canon and I go by that to the letter - I have to - I am writing for the canon after all now - and one of the things I am working on is what happens in California starting in May of 2001 - and it includes Littlefield

Be prepared for all the material in Challenger that is endorsed by GDW.

There is to much what if, and might have been to take the Littlefield collection seriously, What can a veteran tell a model maker though?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by The Dark

However, the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation wasn't actually in San Francisco. It was in Portola Valley, about 40 miles south. It was, in fact, very close to the spot on the v2.2 map marked "Wilmington" (which appears to be misplaced and appears to be somewhere in the vicinity of Cupertino). If we accept the list over the map, the MVTF should be OK, since it's far enough south to avoid the San Francisco blasts. However, if the map is correct and the Wilmington strike deviated, the MVTF was likely damaged and without clear road connections to anywhere but San Francisco, since a blast near Cupertino would have a 5 psi overpressure cover from the mountains to the bay.

Only 22 miles or 35 kilometers from the U.S. Navy shipyard at Hunters Point.

BRAC shut that down in 1994

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Fr...Naval_Shipyard

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by The Dark

The bolded nuke sites are all within 30 miles of San Francisco (and Richmond is less than 15 miles away). Most of San Francisco would suffer light damage from the Richmond blast (even if it was multiple smaller blasts, the damage would likely reach to the Mission District). It may not have been directly hit, but it would have repercussions both directly from the blast and indirectly from refugees. The main power plant in the city is within the damage zone.

However, the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation wasn't actually in San Francisco. It was in Portola Valley, about 40 miles south. It was, in fact, very close to the spot on the v2.2 map marked "Wilmington" (which appears to be misplaced and appears to be somewhere in the vicinity of Cupertino). If we accept the list over the map, the MVTF should be OK, since it's far enough south to avoid the San Francisco blasts. However, if the map is correct and the Wilmington strike deviated, the MVTF was likely damaged and without clear road connections to anywhere but San Francisco, since a blast near Cupertino would have a 5 psi overpressure cover from the mountains to the bay.

Wilmington is in the Los Angeles area not San Francisco

[Olefin]

You might want to check your actual map coordinates guys

Wilmington CA is not anywhere near Portola Valley - not even close

Wilmington is a neighborhood in the Los Angeles Harbor Region area of Los Angeles, California, covering 9.14 square miles.

Featuring a heavy concentration of industry and the third-largest oil field in the United States, it is considered sparsely populated in comparison with the city as a whole and within the city it is distinguished by its youthful population and high percentage of Latino and foreign-born residents.

It is the site of Los Angeles Harbor College, Banning High School and ten other primary and secondary schools. Wilmington has six parks, including one on the waterfront.

[Olefin]

Oh and ArmySgt - you are getting very close to violating the rules of the forum with your personal attacks against me. If you dont like my opinions about the canon and its inconsistencies notice that nothing that I wrote and published IN ANY WAY contradicted the canon.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Oh and ArmySgt - you are getting very close to violating the rules of the forum with your personal attacks against me. If you dont like my opinions about the canon and its inconsistencies notice that nothing that I wrote and published IN ANY WAY contradicted the canon.

I am bending over backwards to be polite when replying to you. Try to do the same yourself. I just haven't risen to your baiting replies as you may like.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Wilmington is in the Los Angeles area not San Francisco

Yes, I did say it appears to be misplaced. Now, which takes precedence in canon, the list of targets or the map of where nukes hit? That was the entire point of my post, which you completely glossed over. The pedantic description of Wilmington is completely irrelevant if the nuke missed.

[kato13]

I honestly don't have time or the inclination to moderate this.

You two (ARMYSGT and Olefin) seem to both feel that continuations posting will lead to someone "winning". You two have a fundamental disagreement that clearly is never going to resolve itself.

The last to post DOES NOT WIN.

At some point you have to be confident you made your case, be the bigger man and walk away.

Since neither of you is doing that at the moment it will end this particular argument with a thread lock.