The 40th Infantry Division

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by DocFirefly

What if someone PLANNED to use the collection against enemies?
What if Littlefield, and some friends (Local Base commander, One or More high level state/federal politicians and several other friends) came to the realization that things could get bad, and that the collection would give the California State government a little bit of an edge during civil unrest. Heck, lets say some of these folks even thought that they could be "reinforcements" if the Soviets ever came through Washington state (not all powerful men are rational). So for a period of time before the TDM they pool their resources and influence to start making the collection ready for service. They start commissioning sympathetic machinists (or a "friend" with a machine shop orders their employees to) start making critical parts. State law enforcement looks the other way as munitions are located or created. Enthusiast and greybeards are recruited for crews and trainers. Until that day when the 40th ID reforms and this adhoc "wannabe" unit shows up for duty.
It almost sounds like the plot to a sitcom, but people take initiative all the time on endeavors. Think of Zouve units in the ACW, or the Lincoln Brigade. It's no more unrealistic in this fantasyverse than an entire infantry Brigade formed around Anti-Aircraft Vehicles. Maybe part of cannon could be this quixotic adventure.

Two men can keep a secret if one of them is dead.

You're talking in the hundreds of persons and the subversion of may State and Federal Laws that go with long prison terms for offenders.

Problem of all..........This is California.

Only half jokingly called, the Peoples Republic of California any longer.

Even making ammunition has problems....... The gun sights are calibrated to specific and standard shells with known properties. If you tried to make an APFSDS round for say a 37mm gun on an M5, if the modern propellant didn't wreck the breach, then the sights wouldn't work with the higher velocity ammunition.

Would the 1940s, 50s, and 60s equipment have a use somewhere? Yes. Not as a front line unit fighting trained soldiers and professionals like the Mexican Armed Forces though.

Protecting the State Treasury convoy as it moves the gold to Idaho or the Governors mansion from angry residents. Not against trained soldiers supported by a combined arms force with its own armor and artillery.

[Olefin]

ArmySgt - I highly doubt anyone really cares much about state and federal laws after the TDM at all - no one is paying taxes, no one is paying attention to gun laws anymore - thats why LA is completely lawless by 2001 (getting massively nuked and no more water and electricity probably has something to do with that)

and I highly doubt that the Marines and Army made sure that every shell and weapon was accounted for as they were getting overrun by the Mexican invasion

FYI - you can make shells if you have the specs and the drawings - per the canon there are local machine shops making mortar rounds and such already by 2001 - and I have a feeling most of what they are making would be good old fashioned HE and solid shot

if he has the ability to make parts from the drawings and plans that he has I have a feeling he can make shells as well - given that his resources and skilled machinists that he had are a lot better than your average local machine shop

Oh and dont make me laugh that hard with this line - "Would the 1940s, 50s, and 60s equipment have a use somewhere? Yes. Not as a front line unit fighting trained soldiers and professionals like the Mexican Armed Forces though."

The Mexican Army of the V1 and V2.2 timeline is a combination of both a volunteer and conscript army.

Their officers were good but their NCO's werent - at least not in the mid-90's - that changed after the Chiapas revolt. Their Marines and Paras were every bit as professional as our guys are. However their army at the time of the invasion in the main was not trained or equipped for any type of land war. They were mostly trained to deal with disasters and service and security work inside Mexico.

Thus their army was definitely not trained for the invasion and combat against the US Army or trained to take on insurgents that were decently armed in any way. And their equipment was not up to the standard it is today - they only succeeded because even though their armor was crap and they didnt have a lot of it they at least had some - and we didnt. Thats why the advance into CA basically came to an end when they hit the guys from the 40th around Bakersfield as they finally got into that area from Oregon.

What they had was mostly 50's to 60's vintage and designs with a small amount of more modern French equipment - heck they were still using Stuart tanks and WWII half tracks in their army and Toyota trucks as troop carriers.

Meaning that the Littlefield tanks would have been either even or a match for most of what they had.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The M728 CEV
is used in the assault AS A TANK. These are used to breach obstacles like berms or with mine plow to get units through a defensive mine belt. All the while under enemy fire. The armor isn't enough by 2018 and that is why (even with ERA) this is replaced by the Grizzly.

While the 165mm demo gun isn't meant for other tanks that is what the supporting arms like artillery is for. NOTHING operates alone (except in RPGs).

It really depends on how you define a tank. By WWII definitions, you're describing an assault gun. AFAIK, during the Cold War both NATO and the Soviet Union defined tanks as tracked AFVs with high-caliber main guns and rotating turrets, used primarily as an offensive weapon and/or against other tanks. By that definition, is the M728 a tank? It meets most of the criteria, but I doubt that an M728 would be used offensively against enemy armor, except in extremis.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Would the 1940s, 50s, and 60s equipment have a use somewhere? Yes. Not as a front line unit fighting trained soldiers and professionals like the Mexican Armed Forces though.

Protecting the State Treasury convoy as it moves the gold to Idaho or the Governors mansion from angry residents. Not against trained soldiers supported by a combined arms force with its own armor and artillery.

For whatever it's worth, I agree with you on these points. I don't know for sure, but I think the pro-Littlefield folks are proposing that his collection could be useful against Mexican follow-on troops, after the upper-echelon, mechanized spearheads have been substantially weakened, towards the end of their long drive into NorCal, not during the initial breakthrough battles. That, to me, seems entirely feasible/reasonable.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

For whatever it's worth, I agree with you on these points. I don't know for sure, but I think the pro-Littlefield folks are proposing that his collection could be useful against Mexican follow-on troops, after the upper-echelon, mechanized spearheads have been substantially weakened, towards the end of their long drive into NorCal, not during the initial breakthrough battles. That, to me, seems entirely feasible/reasonable.

100% correct Raellus - I am not saying that it would be used in 1998 to stop the invasion - for one back then the 40th would have been at full strength and they would have been like who cares about some old tanks we have plenty - which is definitely not the case by April 2001

this is what you use in 2001 with no other armor available to try to push the now weakened Mexican forces, whose logistics are completely shot and whose armor, whatever is left, is worn out and low on ammo - and long after just about every anti-tank weapon they have is gone - thats when Littlefield's Collection suddenly becomes a game changer - not during the actual invasion itself in 1998

and let me add that what I mean by this statement - "What they had was mostly 50's to 60's vintage and designs with a small amount of more modern French equipment - heck they were still using Stuart tanks and WWII half tracks in their army and Toyota trucks as troop carriers. Meaning that the Littlefield tanks would have been either even or a match for most of what they had." is what they had left after the invasion got stopped in their tracks and both sides were exhausted - not to try to use it to take on full power fresh invasion forces

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

It really depends on how you define a tank. By WWII definitions, you're describing an assault gun. AFAIK, during the Cold War both NATO and the Soviet Union defined tanks as tracked AFVs with high-caliber main guns and rotating turrets, used primarily as an offensive weapon and/or against other tanks. By that definition, is the M728 a tank? It meets most of the criteria, but I doubt that an M728 would be used offensively against enemy armor, except in extremis.

and the canon itself even remarks that its gotten so bad that they are using the M728 as a combat tank - and I quote from page 45 of the US Army Vehicle Guide - " This particular vehicle (an M728 that is with the 40th in the spring of 2000 in CA), however, has been pressed into service as a surrogate tank. (By 2000 virtually anything with armor and a gun was being used by armored units in the United States as a tank)"

Thus they arent using it as an engineering vehicle - they are using it to fight other tanks. As such I would much rather have a real tank that was really designed to fight other tanks with a real gun that fires real AP shells instead of having to use a vehicle with a demo gun as a tank.

[mpipes]

GOOD LORD.

If you are looking to canon, "Howling Wilderness" makes the US look just a step away from Mad Max. Littleton's collection intact in that environment makes for a major chunk of military power within the vicinity. The light Mexican armor is vulnerable to everything he has, and he WILL have the ammo for the guns, even if he has to bribe military sources to get them. The necessary machine shops and other resources are available to get a local production line up and running, and you cannot tell me that the man who pretty much singlehandedly assembled a collection of over 200 military armor vehicles can't figure out how to make ammo. Its like trying to tell Colt or Ruger he has guns but no ammo...big deal....he'll make the damn ammo if for no other reason than the simple fact he knows the people that can.

And the radio doesn't work. WHO THE HELL CARES!!! ITS A BLIPPING TANK!! Find a working CB and figure it out if you have too. Its a tank with a working main gun!!! And probably a machinegun as well. Are you really going to whine "the radio doesn't work"?

Also, most museums from what I understand have fully functional military equipment. They can register the weapons on a Form 10. Not sure Littleton had that, but everything in the D-Day museum in New Orleans works. I helped them get a few full autos, and ALL the machineguns are live. Even unregistered machineguns can be registered by a museum. One of the MP-44s (or MG.42--forgotten which) on display was captured by a GI and never registered in the amnesty, but the museum did register it when donated. Totally legal. I think the F-4J at one of the Dallas museums is fully operational; right down to the radar and fire control systems. The only thing I understand that was removed was the ECM gear. The MiG-17's guns at the same place are intact as well as the fire controls and radar gunsight.

And AP rounds, last I checked, DO NOT come under ATF's definition of an explosive requiring registration. Propulsive gunpowder was expressly excluded by Congress. Now if you make a bomb with gunpowder, then you are in violation. But if you load ammo, even main-gun tank ammo, the propulsive charge in the case does not qualify as an explosive bomb under the law. So you can have AP rounds without a tax. As a good example, 37mm smoke grenades ARE NOT registered with ATF. 40mm HE on the other hand must be registered - even police agency issue. Tear gas rounds; not registered either. The key distinction; HE shells containing explosives are legally bombs. AP rounds do not contain explosives and do not qualify as bombs. But regardless, after TDM, ATF ain't going to care. The Federals are going to be concerned about trying to keep some degree of order, and rich folks making tank rounds or Jim Bob converting ARs to full auto for the local militia just are not going to be a concern. The people rioting two towns over because there is no food as well as trying to keep locales from hoarding all the food are going to be the main concerns.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

ArmySgt - I highly doubt anyone really cares much about state and federal laws after the TDM at all - no one is paying taxes, no one is paying attention to gun laws anymore - thats why LA is completely lawless by 2001 (getting massively nuked and no more water and electricity probably has something to do with that)

Then you contradict yourself... Is San Francisco there or not? When I state and demonstrate all of the Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force bases surrounding there and should have been nuked into extinction; you tell me SF is there, that it canon.

One or the other. Either SF is a dead husk unable to support the people or it is all sunshine and rainbows.

Any reasonable person would state..... SF is dead for all intents and purposes. The Federal buildings like the Federal Reserve gold vault there warrant megaton range nukes. If nuked there is no emergeny services that would be able to do little more than medial without electricity to run the pumps for water to hydrants.

How is it then that the J. Littlefield and company have power, food, water, safety, and 100% of the staff with no asualties in 2000? When people are starving to death or dying from preventable diseases.
How?

Originally Posted by Olefin

and I highly doubt that the Marines and Army made sure that every shell and weapon was accounted for as they were getting overrun by the Mexican invasion

The someone was demoted or shot for gross incompetent. SOP is to destroy supplies and munitions to prevent capture by enemy forces by any means.

Originally Posted by Olefin

FYI - you can make shells if you have the specs and the drawings - per the canon there are local machine shops making mortar rounds and such already by 2001 - and I have a feeling most of what they are making would be good old fashioned HE and solid shot

Mighty big IF. Those are proprietary information. Restricted by the DoD and State Department. I suppose WW1 fuzes are possible, I have a whole book of those in .pdf.

Modern radar VT takes transistors, though. Fuze Super quick, if you have the chemists to make the explosives for the fuse. The fuzes are the bottle neck in that operation. About 1000 variables to make that a go or a failure either way. What it is though is VERY manpower intensive and machine time intensive to make shells start to finish beginning with a foundry. So now they have a foundry, dozens of lathes with a head stock greater than 14 inches, and knee mill, horizontal mills, and broaching machines will space too hold stock greater than 12 inches........ OK. Now they need to find power, food, water, medicines, for a few hundred specialized trades and support like cooks.

See how far you have to streth things to get one obsolete tank into battle? Why it is wasteful of resources?

Originally Posted by Olefin

if he has the ability to make parts from the drawings and plans that he has I have a feeling he can make shells as well - given that his resources and skilled machinists that he had are a lot better than your average local machine shop

Not enough by far to divert them to other things, see above.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Oh and dont make me laugh that hard with this line – "Would the 1940s, 50s, and 60s equipment have a use somewhere? Yes. Not as a front line unit fighting trained soldiers and professionals like the Mexican Armed Forces though."

Be polite. Going down this road undercuts any legitimate argument you might have.

I get it though. How dare those little brown peasants stand up to Americans. Don't they know their place? This is how you sound, right now.

Originally Posted by Olefin

The Mexican Army of the V1 and V2.2 timeline is a combination of both a volunteer and conscript army.

So is the U.S.; what is your point?

Originally Posted by Olefin

Their officers were good but their NCO's werent - at least not in the mid-90's - that changed after the Chiapas revolt. Their Marines and Paras were every bit as professional as our guys are. However their army at the time of the invasion in the main was not trained or equipped for any type of land war. They were mostly trained to deal with disasters and service and security work inside Mexico.

Your confusing the paramilitary police forces with the regular army. There is a distinction. Mexico doesn't have anything like Posse Commitatus, and that blurs things from a U.S. Point of view.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Thus their army was definitely not trained for the invasion and combat against the US Army or trained to take on insurgents that were decently armed in any way. And their equipment was not up to the standard it is today - they only succeeded because even though their armor was crap and they didnt have a lot of it they at least had some - and we didnt. Thats why the advance into CA basically came to an end when they hit the guys from the 40th around Bakersfield as they finally got into that area from Oregon.

Let's see. Regular Mexican forces with an intact supply chain, excellent human intelligence, and their organic equipment on which they have trained crews, mechanic, and ordnance men are thwarted by an under strength U.S. Division without supply, adequate training, and unfamiliar equipment. The mental gymnastics alone are exhausting for this kind of forced narrative. The Mexicans intact supply lines are ¼ that of the 40ths to just begin.

Originally Posted by Olefin

What they had was mostly 50's to 60's vintage and designs with a small amount of more modern French equipment - heck they were still using Stuart tanks and WWII half tracks in their army and Toyota trucks as troop carriers.

You did note that the Mexican Army is atually training on those.. They have trained crews, mechanic, and new ordnance. The M5 and M6 guns were replaced with 20x139mm RH202 auto cannons. They have spare parts in abundance. Even the M3s have a 20mm on top. The DNX fighting vehicles are in service too as are the MEX-1s. There using light armored troop carriers to move troops..... All supported in Combined Arms by AT teams with the VBLs (Milan) and infantry with RPG-7s, M40a1s, and Carl Gustafs. Immediate support from the 75mm M8s and 105mm towed on call.

You don't need tanks to kill tanks. There is a hundred other ways starting with an artillery barrage for one.

Toe to Toe with a U.S. Division fully equipped and trained; I wouldn't give them a chance in hell. By this time in the Canon time lines the U.S. Divisions were sent overseas to Europe, the Middle East, Africa, and Korea. The Mexican trained and equipped force is up against green, partially trained conscripts, with little new or obsolete equipment.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Meaning that the Littlefield tanks would have been either even or a match for most of what they had.

When the other guys have the training, experience, and logistics it isn't and even fight at all. The Mexicans are fighting in one front with no one behind them, with outside support from Cuba, then a good deal of their factories and farms are intact. The Mexicans seem to be holding the water from the Colorado river too.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Raellus

It really depends on how you define a tank. By WWII definitions, you're describing an assault gun. AFAIK, during the Cold War both NATO and the Soviet Union defined tanks as tracked AFVs with high-caliber main guns and rotating turrets, used primarily as an offensive weapon and/or against other tanks. By that definition, is the M728 a tank? It meets most of the criteria, but I doubt that an M728 would be used offensively against enemy armor, except in extremis.

Granted.

Only a fool would send in that M728 alone as a tank anyway. Without infantry and artillery it would be dead fast. The 165mm gun might do enough blast damage to light armor to make a kill with a hit. I don't think the optics or the sights are up to the challenge though.

I wouldn't be using it as a tank. I would be using it for the intended purpose of a breacher to support leg infantry with all the protection I might possibly pile on. It is a specialist vehicle with a specialist task, trying to use it as an MBT is foolish and wasteful with the probable outcome being a dead M728 and four dead men.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Raellus

For whatever it's worth, I agree with you on these points. I don't know for sure, but I think the pro-Littlefield folks are proposing that his collection could be useful against Mexican follow-on troops, after the upper-echelon, mechanized spearheads have been substantially weakened, towards the end of their long drive into NorCal, not during the initial breakthrough battles. That, to me, seems entirely feasible/reasonable.

The situation in 2001 favors the Mexican Government and Armed Forces.

Their fighting on one broad front with no one, but allies, behind them. They should still be able to land raids with their Marines up and down the U.S. west coast further tying up U.S. forces and preventing those from grouping in real strength.

The Mexican people are a part of the U.S. population. Those people live and work at all levels of society, not just as peons for whites the like cheap illegal labor. That is a huge human intelligence gathering network all reporting on U.S. Forces movement, strength, and supply. What would the Maquis be in spanish?

The Mexicans have obsolete equipment, yes. The huge difference is that they train on this gear and have a supply chain for it. A badly damaged M3A1 can be trucked back to Mexico on a lowboy and repaired. By this time the M8 Greyhounds have 20MMs, and everything has diesel engines and modern radios.

The Mexican shouldn't even be starving. They have the water from controlling the Colorado and American rivers. Though they do need to do something about no imports of wheat or corn from the U.S. There is more money in growing food than drugs so that is a problem that takes care of itself.

Mexians have fuel from their own fields and supply from friends like Guatemala and Venezuela.

The U.S. Monroe doctrine has rightfully made for anger and mistrust from the Latin American countries. Would they reinforce Mexico with the M3s, M4s, and M8s given to them? I don't know.

[Raellus]

I feel that there is middle ground here, but that some people just aren't interested in finding it together.

I think that it would be helpful to define our parameters here. May I assume that we are all discussing Twilight 2000? If so, then it would probably help to have a common point of reference. I propose that we use canon.

According to canon, is San Francisco nuked? Are there any canonical targets close enough to the Littlefield Collection to put it in jeopardy?

IIRC, canon is also clear on how far the Mexican Army was able to advance, and what U.S. territory it occupied up to c.2001.

IMO, the constructive approach would be to figure out ways, collaboratively, to reconcile canon with real world exigencies. In other words, how can we tweak things, as little as possible, so that the canon rings true? Or, we can just argue back and forth, mostly just repeating ourselves, and end up getting frustrated and chippy with one another. I propose we pursue the former course.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The situation in 2001 favors the Mexican Government and Armed Forces.

Their fighting on one broad front with no one, but allies, behind them. They should still be able to land raids with their Marines up and down the U.S. west coast further tying up U.S. forces and preventing those from grouping in real strength.

The Mexican people are a part of the U.S. population. Those people live and work at all levels of society, not just as peons for whites the like cheap illegal labor. That is a huge human intelligence gathering network all reporting on U.S. Forces movement, strength, and supply. What would the Maquis be in spanish?

The Mexicans have obsolete equipment, yes. The huge difference is that they train on this gear and have a supply chain for it. A badly damaged M3A1 can be trucked back to Mexico on a lowboy and repaired. By this time the M8 Greyhounds have 20MMs, and everything has diesel engines and modern radios.

The Mexican shouldn't even be starving. They have the water from controlling the Colorado and American rivers. Though they do need to do something about no imports of wheat or corn from the U.S. There is more money in growing food than drugs so that is a problem that takes care of itself.

Mexians have fuel from their own fields and supply from friends like Guatemala and Venezuela.

The U.S. Monroe doctrine has rightfully made for anger and mistrust from the Latin American countries. Would they reinforce Mexico with the M3s, M4s, and M8s given to them? I don't know.

I agree with you on nearly all points. However, I think you should consider the impact of U.S. partisans operating behind Mexican lines. Americans have lots of guns. They know the land. Also, loyal Mexican-Americans can gather intel for said partisan forces.

Also, long supply lines are vulnerable. The U.S. forces would have interior lines (i.e. much shorter/local supply) whereas the Mexican supply lines would often stretch for hundreds of miles through hostile (see point 1) territory.

Lastly, after a year of heavy combat, Mexican AFV stocks would be considerably depleted and, in the v1.0 timeline at least, Mexico didn't have the capacity to produce large numbers of their own.

To sum up, yes, in a T2K scenario, the Mexican army would have a number of advantages over the U.S. forces, but they'd also have to contend with some significant disadvantages (long supply lines and partisan activity), in addition to normal combat attrition (which both sides would be dealing with).

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mpipes

GOOD LORD.

Be polite. I am. Though I willingly admit to a level in bluntness in my replies. I am neither patient or willing to spend unnecessary time on padding things for adults. In real life or online. Still, be polite and argue your case, as I have done.

Originally Posted by mpipes

If you are looking to canon, "Howling Wilderness" makes the US look just a step away from Mad Max. Littleton's collection intact in that environment makes for a major chunk of military power within the vicinity. The light Mexican armor is vulnerable to everything he has, and he WILL have the ammo for the guns, even if he has to bribe military sources to get them. The necessary machine shops and other resources are available to get a local production line up and running, and you cannot tell me that the man who pretty much singlehandedly assembled a collection of over 200 military armor vehicles can't figure out how to make ammo. Its like trying to tell Colt or Ruger he has guns but no ammo...big deal....he'll make the damn ammo if for no other reason than the simple fact he knows the people that can.

That is a lot of “Ifs, Maybes, Shoulds, and Coulds”.

That would have to be built before the war, employ several hundred people to be efficient, and costs thousands in fees for licenses. I suppose that a very low rate of hand made artisanal mortar and artillery shells would be turned out by a garage shot at a rate of ten or so a week.

Tank ammunition is orders of magnitude more difficult. It has to be precisely aimed, fly true, and penetrate. That means things like the powder charge in the casing has to be to a standard or the tanks gun sights are near useless.

Originally Posted by mpipes

And the radio doesn't work. WHO THE HELL CARES!!! ITS A BLIPPING TANK!! Find a working CB and figure it out if you have too. Its a tank with a working main gun!!! And probably a machinegun as well. Are you really going to whine "the radio doesn't work"?

Hmmm, . Yes, the radios have to work for the tank to be effective. The tank has to work with Infantry in xlose support or it will be over run and killed. The Company and Battalion commanders have to be able to talk to the xrew to send them orders. The crew needs to be able to call for fuel or other supplies.

A tank doesn't just drive forward killing everything in front of it. A tank is part of a team, called combined arms. Hans Guderian is the progenitor of that concept and it is U.S. Army doctrine.

A tank without a radio is a pillbox more or less. Read some Combined Arms doctrine for a better explanation of what I just said.

Originally Posted by mpipes

Also, most museums from what I understand have fully functional military equipment. They can register the weapons on a Form 10. Not sure Littleton had that, but everything in the D-Day museum in New Orleans works. I helped them get a few full autos, and ALL the machineguns are live. Even unregistered machineguns can be registered by a museum. One of the MP-44s (or MG.42--forgotten which) on display was captured by a GI and never registered in the amnesty, but the museum did register it when donated. Totally legal. I think the F-4J at one of the Dallas museums is fully operational; right down to the radar and fire control systems. The only thing I understand that was removed was the ECM gear. The MiG-17's guns at the same place are intact as well as the fire controls and radar gunsight.

I don't know what you meant here. That museums have functional weapons? Yes, given. What else did you mean?

Originally Posted by mpipes

And AP rounds, last I checked, DO NOT come under ATF's definition of an explosive requiring registration. Propulsive gunpowder was expressly excluded by Congress. Now if you make a bomb with gunpowder, then you are in violation. But if you load ammo, even main-gun tank ammo, the propulsive charge in the case does not qualify as an explosive bomb under the law. So you can have AP rounds without a tax. As a good example, 37mm smoke grenades ARE NOT registered with ATF. 40mm HE on the other hand must be registered - even police agency issue. Tear gas rounds; not registered either. The key distinction; HE shells containing explosives are legally bombs. AP rounds do not contain explosives and do not qualify as bombs.

Originally Posted by mpipes

But regardless, after TDM, ATF ain't going to care. The Federals are going to be concerned about trying to keep some degree of order, and rich folks making tank rounds or Jim Bob converting ARs to full auto for the local militia just are not going to be a concern. The people rioting two towns over because there is no food as well as trying to keep locales from hoarding all the food are going to be the main concerns.

The food riots, power, and riminal militias would be a problem on the American side.

Still in bombed, nuked, diseased, starving, San Fransisco in 2000 where did all these tradesmen xome from and what should they be doing that would right the country versus making marginally effective ammunition for obsolete and likely to be destroyed equipment?

What a waste! If that xan be done then it is better to get the infrastructure rebuilt than make 75mm or 37mm AP solid shot.

Alright. I was probably wrong about AP in a fixed case. To produce that though would have to all be setup before the war. Not that any one uses AP solid shot (bore size) except in auto cannons anymore.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I feel that there is middle ground here, but that some people just aren't interested in finding it together.

I think that it would be helpful to define our parameters here. May I assume that we are all discussing Twilight 2000? If so, then it would probably help to have a common point of reference. I propose that we use canon.

According to canon, is San Francisco nuked? Are there any canonical targets close enough to the Littlefield Collection to put it in jeopardy?

IIRC, canon is also clear on how far the Mexican Army was able to advance, and what U.S. territory it occupied up to c.2001.

IMO, the constructive approach would be to figure out ways, collaboratively, to reconcile canon with real world exigencies. In other words, how can we tweak things, as little as possible, so that the canon rings true? Or, we can just argue back and forth, mostly just repeating ourselves, and end up getting frustrated and chippy with one another. I propose we pursue the former course.

Anyone with all of that. Anyone have on hand, ready to make, one large, and published by GDW only,set of reference material that is specific to U.S. versus Mexico?

I agree. I do. I haven't argued for Canon. I have worked to point out where canon is not plausible or makes any sense given the capabilities and training of the forces (fictionally) in play here.

This Canon vs Non Canon argument seems to always crop up when someone needs it and ignored when they don't agree. That's why I don't say "Yes, but in Xanon". I don't see anyway to resolve that, as people are people.

I will give the original authors all due credit, as it is deserved. They did not have anywhere near the amount of information we take as granted today. Much being classified in someway.

[Raellus]

I'm not trying to be the canon police. I just thought a common frame of reference might be helpful. If y'all want to just keep arguing back and forth, ad nauseam, go for it. As long as y'all keep it civil, we're good.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I agree with you on nearly all points. However, I think you should consider the impact of U.S. partisans operating behind Mexican lines. Americans have lots of guns. They know the land. Also, loyal Mexican-Americans can gather intel for said partisan forces.

I wonder though. The areas the Mexican Armed Forces has penetrated and holds terrain is highly populated by Mexican descendants. Well, might be the whites vs latino militias are canceling each other out. Further, Mexico doesn't have to worry about partisans in Mexico city or elsewhere versus the U.S. Cities with Mexican born residents disrupting power, killing politicians, cutting rail lines, reporting troop movements, etc.

Originally Posted by Raellus

Also, long supply lines are vulnerable. The U.S. forces would have interior lines (i.e. much shorter/local supply) whereas the Mexican supply lines would often stretch for hundreds of miles through hostile (see point 1) territory.

I would argue the opposite. Bakersfield and Los Angeles are closer to Mexico than Camp Rialeah, Umatilla Sierra Army Depot. San Diego is over run, as is Ft Irwin, Ft Ord, Vanderberg AFB, Twenty Nine Palms, and the Naval Air Stations in Sand Diego and the U.S. Navy at Long Beach.

Cutting off the power and water to lower California favors the invader who is able to bring those forward from home and not the defender who has to sit there without giving up terrain.

Originally Posted by Raellus

Lastly, after a year of heavy combat, Mexican AFV stocks would be considerably depleted and, in the v1.0 timeline at least, Mexico didn't have the capacity to produce large numbers of their own.

Wouldn't they just buy more of the WW2 equipment that they do make parts and munitions for from other Latin American countries? RPGs from Cuba? The state of the Mexican infrastructure is in pretty good shape versus the U.S. What was really attacked and destroyed to a state where it cannot be rebuilt within a year or two years? Moreover, any attacks really motivates the Mexican government to further decentralize assets.

Mexico does produce AFVs though..... Diesel Nacional -1 . Then DN II, DN III, DN IV. What would they be able to ramp up to in war, I don't know. I don't know what their rate of production is now.

We do know (or infer) that they have production and depot facilities for the forxes. The M4s were re-engined with 8v 92t motors, the M3A1s have new suspensions and paint. The M8 Greyhounds have been re-armed with 20x139mm or 14.5 bloc. The M8 HMC has been kept in servie with new paint and traxks or the turrets moved to DN Vs (bufalo). This doesn't inxlude souring more from their Latin allies that were also gifted equipment from the U.S. In 1947.

Originally Posted by Raellus

To sum up, yes, in a T2K scenario, the Mexican army would have a number of advantages over the U.S. forces, but they'd also have to contend with some significant disadvantages (long supply lines and partisan activity), in addition to normal combat attrition (which both sides would be dealing with).

Agreed, in part. I just think the Mexicans are in a better position to make up those losses and support their forces forward versus the U.S. Position.

[Olefin]

ArmySgt if you are not using canon then you are doing an apples versus oranges argument - we have been using canon and writing the Littlefield Collection into it

a) San Francisco was not nuked - Howling Wilderness specifically mentions the city government is still around and active well into late 2001

b) CA nuke sites - canonical

El Segundo, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (1.75 Mt).
Richmond, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (one 1.5 Mt).
Carson, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.75 Kt).
Avon, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Torrance, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Wilmington, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (1.25 Mt).
Benicia, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Martinez, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Vandenberg AFB, CA: Recon Satellite Launch Facilities (1 Mt,
ground burst).
March AFB, CA: 15th Air Force Headquarters (1 Mt).

c) there is no power being generated south of Bakersfield or water being sent as well - and MilGov could easily cut the last water source to LA - its gravity fed - you blow it and no water to LA - and there is NO WAY IN HELL (emphasis mine) that the Mexicans are trucking enough water from the only water source they would have - which is the All American Canal near the Imperial Valley - all the way to just south of Bakersfield

d) I have read the description of CA in Howling Wilderness and frankly the description of California contradicts itself about ten times - it makes it sounds like almost no food gets grown then says they grow about 50 percent of normal food levels - well sorry but if the state is growing that much food after LA got massively depopulated then there is NO STARVATION in the state - so for CA I definitely ignore HW

e) The AFV's you mentioned were all produced in the early to mid-80's - Mexico made a conscious decision to stop making their own because their production rates sucked and the vehicles were garbage - and thats quoting Mexican sources by the way


The first attempts to update Mexico’s forces began in the 1979 when a decision was made to restart armored vehicle production in Mexico, which had moribund since the delivery of forty HWK-11 tracked APC’s in the 1960’s. The first product of this effort was the SEDENA 1000 armored recon vehicles which were based on the Dodge 4x4 truck. They were lightly armored and armed only with a 7.62mm MG3 machine gun.

The SEDENA 1000 paved the way for the first actual production vehicle, the DN-IV Caballo 4x4 wheeled APC, production of which started in 1983. They were an indigenous Mexican design similar to the V-150 but with a better suspension and bigger tires made for the rougher terrain of Mexico. It was armed with a SAMM-Morelos one-man turret equipped with a M2HB 50 caliber machine gun and a 7.62mm MG3 machine gun and was capable of carrying six troops and a crew of three.

In 1984 the DN-V Toro was introduced as an armored recon vehicle to complement the DN-IV. It was a 4x4 like the DN-IV and was fitted with the FVT 900 series one-man turret with a 20mm GIAT M621 cannon and a coaxial 7.62mm MG3 machine gun. While much better than the SEDENA 1000 it was still considered an inferior product compared to what was available from other countries.

Total production - 50 each of the DN-IV and V, about 24 of the Sedena 1000 - and in the 1960's they made a small number of APC's as well - 40 HWK-11 - and thats it

f) the Latino population of CA was around 9 million in 1997 - but it was not all Mexican - around 35-40% was Central American from countries that definitely would NOT BE HAPPY that Mexico had invaded and taken over parts of CA - especially those from Guatemala and Honduras - thus they would have taken over a big population who didnt like them very much

g) they could get RPG's from Cuba but they couldnt get more MILAN missiles - and most of the invasion routes eventually got into country where you arent going to nail an M1 with an RPG - not out around Palmdale or Edwards or the Arizona desert or western TX - and most of the countries that have equipment wouldnt be selling it to Mexico - Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador have got Nicaragua to worry about if its V1 - and once they cross the border any factory producing military hardware is going to get taken out by the US

[Olefin]

and the attacks on LA alone kill off a lot of LA's Latino population - three nukes on oil centers which kill 752,000 people, wound seriously 2.75 million people and the firestorms burn the entire barrio area to the ground - meaning that of those nine million Latinos in CA you just killed or seriously wounded probably 4 million of them - so much for all the help the Mexican invasion is going to get

brought to you by https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

[Olefin]

"Then you contradict yourself... Is San Francisco there or not? When I state and demonstrate all of the Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force bases surrounding there and should have been nuked into extinction; you tell me SF is there, that it canon.

One or the other. Either SF is a dead husk unable to support the people or it is all sunshine and rainbows.

Any reasonable person would state..... SF is dead for all intents and purposes. The Federal buildings like the Federal Reserve gold vault there warrant megaton range nukes. If nuked there is no emergeny services that would be able to do little more than medial without electricity to run the pumps for water to hydrants.

How is it then that the J. Littlefield and company have power, food, water, safety, and 100% of the staff with no asualties in 2000? When people are starving to death or dying from preventable diseases.
How"

SF is alive not a dead husk - but the authority of the state only is in force where there are cops and MilGov forces that are still answering the state - meaning anywhere south of Bakersfield, north of San Francisco no one gives a damn about the law

as for how his guys are alive and healthy - no nukes nearby, lot of armored vehicles and weapons - as for power - he had a lot of diesel fuel on the property - and a machine shop like his would be able to turn out things like windmills to generate power for instance - and considering its CA I bet good money he had solar panels too

keep in mind - per canon - about 60-70% of the 40th basically told MilGov to go screw and disobeyed orders in late 2000 and refused to move as ordered and kept their tanks and guns - and for that huge act of mutiny the remaining government - did absolutely nothing - sounds like to me that no one cares too much about what the law is anymore

[Olefin]

Now if you dont follow canon and want to play your own game and own timeline then none of what I just posted matters - but if you are following at least some of the canon that is what you have to deal with - especially if you are like me and Raellus and want to write more canon material for the game - but if you are just playing your own campaign you can ignore as much of that as you like

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

ArmySgt if you are not using canon then you are doing an apples versus oranges argument - we have been using canon and writing the Littlefield Collection into it

You use canon when it suits you and you don't when you don't like it. The Howling Wilderness thread alone confirms that. What is the point if only one side does an apples to apples comparison? Why hold others to a standard you admit to not following yourself, in re Howling Wilderness?

Let alone the logical inconsistency of nuking two Air Force bases (one only launches satellites) several oil refineries then ignores completely the Pacific fleet bases and ship yards in San Francisco and San Diego.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I wonder though. The areas the Mexican Armed Forces has penetrated and holds terrain is highly populated by Mexican descendants. Well, might be the whites vs latino militias are canceling each other out. Further, Mexico doesn't have to worry about partisans in Mexico city or elsewhere versus the U.S. Cities with Mexican born residents disrupting power, killing politicians, cutting rail lines, reporting troop movements, etc.

I've lived in Tucson for 25 years. By and large, the rather sizeable Latino community here would, in a T2K scenario, fight for the U.S.A., if they were to fight at all. I reckon that's true in most of the American Southwest. I don't think a simple binary white v. latino militia viewpoint is fair or accurate. That kind of thinking, in 1942, led to Japanese internment.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Agreed, in part. I just think the Mexicans are in a better position to make up those losses and support their forces forward versus the U.S. Position.

Agreed. I've always been an apologist for the Mexican invasion. I think it could have worked and been as successful as described in the T2K materials, with or without beefing up MA armored forces.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

You use canon when it suits you and you don't when you don't like it. The Howling Wilderness thread alone confirms that. What is the point if only one side does an apples to apples comparison? Why hold others to a standard you admit to not following yourself, in re Howling Wilderness?

Let alone the logical inconsistency of nuking two Air Force bases (one only launches satellites) several oil refineries then ignores completely the Pacific fleet bases and ship yards in San Francisco and San Diego.

Hey if you dont like the nuke pattern go tell that to Marc Miller and Frank Frey and Frank Chadwick - they are still around on facebook - and I dont like HW because frankly the weather idea is non-nonsensical and if you follow what it says about how little food is left you are looking at the total destruction of the US for about 200 years or so given what little would be left of the population - doesnt take a math genius to say that if the population is already down by 50 percent and there is only enough food for a quarter of them that means you have 12.5 percent of the US population left - and that doesnt factor in disease, fighting for the remaining food, areas under foreign occupation, etc.

sorry but given that kind of holocaust there is no way that less than two hundreds years later the US is not only back together but back in space and going faster than light

and as I pointed out his own description of CA contradicted itself - but that doesnt change the nuke attack history or the Mexican invasion - both of which are separate from his state by state description of what he says will happen after April 2001

but since GDW never released another canon US module after April 2001 date I pretty much ignore anything past that date - but the I dont ignore the nuke attacks or the events from June 2000 to April 2001 or the Mexican invasion and its effects - that is canon and I go by that to the letter - I have to - I am writing for the canon after all now - and one of the things I am working on is what happens in California starting in May of 2001 - and it includes Littlefield

[swaghauler]

As some of you already know, my backround is completely different (even for the V2.2 timeline) with Division Cuba coming from Russia explicitly to help the Mexican government (which is now a narco-puppet state). This gives Mexico modernized T55Ms with reactive armor, the Shorta systems dischargers (12 total), thermal imaging, laser rangers, and the computerized Volna fire control. They were supported by Division Cuba's Modernized (and equally well-equipped) T72Ms.
The 40th reequipped from surplus stocks of Marine tanks. At this time in history, the Marines had switched to using the M1 and there were a few hundred M60A3s with thermal imaging and reactive armor sitting in the depots as a result. These are what the remaining National Guard units (whose crews and M1 tanks were used to replace battlefield losses) and newly forming divisions are drawing out. In addition, Cadillac Gauge had an order placed by the Royal Thai Army in 1997 for 85 Stingrays. So in 1998, Texas seizes around 100 Stingrays that were set for export either to fulfill the Royal Thai Army's order or as "technology demonstrators" to various governments.
This is how I explain the Second US-Mexican War. The T55Ms and T72Ms are an equal match for the older US equipment that they faced essentially resulting in a case of "mutually assured destruction" (just like in Europe).

One other thing I'd like to address is the debate on ammo as a "destructive device." As you guys know, I have some knowledge here, especially since I began participating in D-Day Conneaut with their tank battle and all the Artillery that shows up. EACH ROUND of ammo in a casing larger than .50 (there are different rules for black powder rounds) is indeed a "destructive device" and subject to FORM 1 BATF rules (this was a BIG pain in the ass for owners of 12 gauge Streetsweeper shotguns when "Clinton" declared them "Destructive Devices" just before the 94 Assault Weapons Ban). While the $200 Tax Stamp is not that big a deal, the FILING is (or rather WAS). You must have WRITTEN acknowledgment from local LE of the request and then submit it to the BATF. During the 90's there were also limits on the number of Form 1 filings a single person/legal entity could make at once. The time to get a Form 1 approval hovered around ONE YEAR from start to finish. This is what would limit ammo count.
Both Explosive ammo AND Armor Piercing ammo was FORBIDDEN without the express written consent of the BATF. This was only given to manufacturers or testing facilities in the case of Large Caliber "Destructive Devices." Also, please note that a destructive device was a round of ammo OR ANY COMPONENT THAT COULD BE USED TO MAKE ONE! Because of these rules, most owners of "destructive devices" using a cartridge only had a few. I would think that 2D6 Shells would be appropriate after the Exchange. Also, note that "Armor Piercing" is strangely defined by the BAFT. It is based on construction MATERIAL and includes Tungsten, DU, and very hard (AR600+) Tool Steels. Thus, older hardened steel rounds that were "AP" back in WW2 may NOT QUALIFY today.

Making Ammo:

As you guys know, I'm a "Weapon's Enthusiast" in every sense of the word. "ball" and "canister" rounds are easy to make and AP rounds can be machined from tool steel or tungsten (if you can find either after The Exchange).

High Explosive Rounds:

HE is much trickier. Making Comp-B, ANFO, or Plastique isn't hard for anyone with a Chemistry Degree, The Anarchist's Cookbook, or the US Army's Improvised Munitions Handbook, but you will need a DEMO KIT (with DETONATORS) for a PROPER LCG Round. Unless you are going with ANFO and a Fuse Cord (the type of fuse that burns and is often seen sticking out of Dynamite in most movies) that you light just before firing, you are going to need either a Pressure Detonator or a Primer Detonator (most commonly equipped with a "pull ring") to detonate the above Comp-B or Plastique. They will NOT detonate if set on fire. Pressure detonators can be salvaged from Land Mines but this opens up ANOTHER "can of worms" (and hopefully ONLY in the "figurative" sense).

HEAT Rounds:

The quickest way to make a HEAT round is to get one of those big (and cool) Copper funnels like they use in Breweries and Wineries. I personally would only use a pressure detonator with this round. One way to make the detonator less sensitive is to put a waxed cotton wad (which will soften under the heat of firing) between the detonator's trigger and pad before removing the safety screw. This would greatly increase the pressure needed to detonate it. I would then make an "Investment Casting using Mild Steel with the Copper funnel (properly plugged with wax to keep the "negative space" inside it) forming the nose and body front. For those who don't know, Investment Casting (also known as the lost wax process) requires you to build a mold taking into account the general shape and any "negative (ie open) Space" the cast object needs. I would Slightly recess the tip of the funnel inside the nose of the projectile to protect the installed pressure detonator with a nub of mild steel. This nub will deform and allow the detonator to properly impact against the target's surface for detonation (and formation of the molten jet). Once the Casting is cool, you polish it with either a grinder (this guy had better be a Master grinder) or using a Lathe (for a precision polish). I would then fill the copper funnel's negative space with Comp-B and install the detonator. Now you have a HEAT round for the Apocalypse. Of course, it is a MUCH more detailed procedure but I'm not comfortable going into details on an open forum.

The Primer Detonator:

This is a mechanical detonator often detonated by a pull ring which ignites a pyrotechnic delay fuse to the actual detonator. You must drill a hole through the BACK of the round and insert this detonator through the back with additional pyrotechnic fuse pushed into it PAST the pull ring. The fuse is ignited by the powder in the round igniting and burns for a fixed period before the detonation of the explosive. You had better have your range right. You'll also have to insert a steel "plug" into the round's nose to help build "explosive pressure" so the superheated jet can form. I'd weld it in.

The poor man's "fuse;"

You just drill a hole in the base of the round and use a wire to insert a lightable fuse cord with a SPECIFIC BURN RATE. This requires the substitution of COMP-B with either ANFO or Powdered Explosives (Cordite or Black Powder). The fuse is ignited by the shell's powder charge and WILL EXPLODE after a fixed "burn time"/"time in flight" so make sure your Ranging is accurate. Don't forget to plug the round's nose after you pour the powder in!

Finding Brass after The Exchange:

Sherman ammo (and 57mm Howitzer ammo) was often "demilled" and either whole rounds (sans explosive) or Brass Casings sold as curios. There were also many "training rounds" featuring mild steel shells, brass casings WITHOUT primer pockets, and filled with sand for proper weight that were used in "dry fire training" (aka "crew drills"). These pop up all the time and some are even converted to "destructive devices" to satisfy the demand from reenactors. The only thing stopping them from becoming actual ammo is the Legal Repercussions for doing so. After the Exchange, this will disappear. I'd rate both 75mm and 57mm Casings as RARE. You will find them in Museums, VFWs, Rotaries, Surplus Stores, and Gunshops. Both Training Rounds AND "Demilled" Casings would require some skill in either TIG welding or Machining to become functional. I'd chance a "demilled" Case (because I can TIG fairly well) but pass on Machining the Primer Pocket of a Casing (because this exceeds MY Skillset). Unfortunately not that many rounds will be available and you will use SIGNIFICANT resources to make them.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

As some of you already know, my backround is completely different (even for the V2.2 timeline) with Division Cuba coming from Russia explicitly to help the Mexican government (which is now a narco-puppet state). This gives Mexico modernized T55Ms with reactive armor, the Shorta systems dischargers (12 total), thermal imaging, laser rangers, and the computerized Volna fire control. They were supported by Division Cuba's Modernized (and equally well-equipped) T72Ms.
The 40th reequipped from surplus stocks of Marine tanks. At this time in history, the Marines had switched to using the M1 and there were a few hundred M60A3s with thermal imaging and reactive armor sitting in the depots as a result. These are what the remaining National Guard units (whose crews and M1 tanks were used to replace battlefield losses) and newly forming divisions are drawing out. In addition, Cadillac Gauge had an order placed by the Royal Thai Army in 1997 for 85 Stingrays. So in 1998, Texas seizes around 100 Stingrays that were set for export either to fulfill the Royal Thai Army's order or as "technology demonstrators" to various governments.
This is how I explain the Second US-Mexican War. The T55Ms and T72Ms are an equal match for the older US equipment that they faced essentially resulting in a case of "mutually assured destruction" (just like in Europe).

One other thing I'd like to address is the debate on ammo as a "destructive device." As you guys know, I have some knowledge here, especially since I began participating in D-Day Conneaut with their tank battle and all the Artillery that shows up. EACH ROUND of ammo in a casing larger than .50 (there are different rules for black powder rounds) is indeed a "destructive device" and subject to FORM 1 BATF rules (this was a BIG pain in the ass for owners of 12 gauge Streetsweeper shotguns when "Clinton" declared them "Destructive Devices" just before the 94 Assault Weapons Ban). While the $200 Tax Stamp is not that big a deal, the FILING is (or rather WAS). You must have WRITTEN acknowledgment from local LE of the request and then submit it to the BATF. During the 90's there were also limits on the number of Form 1 filings a single person/legal entity could make at once. The time to get a Form 1 approval hovered around ONE YEAR from start to finish. This is what would limit ammo count.
Both Explosive ammo AND Armor Piercing ammo was FORBIDDEN without the express written consent of the BATF. This was only given to manufacturers or testing facilities in the case of Large Caliber "Destructive Devices." Also, please note that a destructive device was a round of ammo OR ANY COMPONENT THAT COULD BE USED TO MAKE ONE! Because of these rules, most owners of "destructive devices" using a cartridge only had a few. I would think that 2D6 Shells would be appropriate after the Exchange. Also, note that "Armor Piercing" is strangely defined by the BAFT. It is based on construction MATERIAL and includes Tungsten, DU, and very hard (AR600+) Tool Steels. Thus, older hardened steel rounds that were "AP" back in WW2 may NOT QUALIFY today.

Making Ammo:

As you guys know, I'm a "Weapon's Enthusiast" in every sense of the word. "ball" and "canister" rounds are easy to make and AP rounds can be machined from tool steel or tungsten (if you can find either after The Exchange).

High Explosive Rounds:

HE is much trickier. Making Comp-B, ANFO, or Plastique isn't hard for anyone with a Chemistry Degree, The Anarchist's Cookbook, or the US Army's Improvised Munitions Handbook, but you will need a DEMO KIT (with DETONATORS) for a PROPER LCG Round. Unless you are going with ANFO and a Fuse Cord (the type of fuse that burns and is often seen sticking out of Dynamite in most movies) that you light just before firing, you are going to need either a Pressure Detonator or a Primer Detonator (most commonly equipped with a "pull ring") to detonate the above Comp-B or Plastique. They will NOT detonate if set on fire. Pressure detonators can be salvaged from Land Mines but this opens up ANOTHER "can of worms" (and hopefully ONLY in the "figurative" sense).

HEAT Rounds:

The quickest way to make a HEAT round is to get one of those big (and cool) Copper funnels like they use in Breweries and Wineries. I personally would only use a pressure detonator with this round. One way to make the detonator less sensitive is to put a waxed cotton wad (which will soften under the heat of firing) between the detonator's trigger and pad before removing the safety screw. This would greatly increase the pressure needed to detonate it. I would then make an "Investment Casting using Mild Steel with the Copper funnel (properly plugged with wax to keep the "negative space" inside it) forming the nose and body front. For those who don't know, Investment Casting (also known as the lost wax process) requires you to build a mold taking into account the general shape and any "negative (ie open) Space" the cast object needs. I would Slightly recess the tip of the funnel inside the nose of the projectile to protect the installed pressure detonator with a nub of mild steel. This nub will deform and allow the detonator to properly impact against the target's surface for detonation (and formation of the molten jet). Once the Casting is cool, you polish it with either a grinder (this guy had better be a Master grinder) or using a Lathe (for a precision polish). I would then fill the copper funnel's negative space with Comp-B and install the detonator. Now you have a HEAT round for the Apocalypse. Of course, it is a MUCH more detailed procedure but I'm not comfortable going into details on an open forum.

The Primer Detonator:

This is a mechanical detonator often detonated by a pull ring which ignites a pyrotechnic delay fuse to the actual detonator. You must drill a hole through the BACK of the round and insert this detonator through the back with additional pyrotechnic fuse pushed into it PAST the pull ring. The fuse is ignited by the powder in the round igniting and burns for a fixed period before the detonation of the explosive. You had better have your range right. You'll also have to insert a steel "plug" into the round's nose to help build "explosive pressure" so the superheated jet can form. I'd weld it in.

The poor man's "fuse;"

You just drill a hole in the base of the round and use a wire to insert a lightable fuse cord with a SPECIFIC BURN RATE. This requires the substitution of COMP-B with either ANFO or Powdered Explosives (Cordite or Black Powder). The fuse is ignited by the shell's powder charge and WILL EXPLODE after a fixed "burn time"/"time in flight" so make sure your Ranging is accurate. Don't forget to plug the round's nose after you pour the powder in!

Finding Brass after The Exchange:

Sherman ammo (and 57mm Howitzer ammo) was often "demilled" and either whole rounds (sans explosive) or Brass Casings sold as curios. There were also many "training rounds" featuring mild steel shells, brass casings WITHOUT primer pockets, and filled with sand for proper weight that were used in "dry fire training" (aka "crew drills"). These pop up all the time and some are even converted to "destructive devices" to satisfy the demand from reenactors. The only thing stopping them from becoming actual ammo is the Legal Repercussions for doing so. After the Exchange, this will disappear. I'd rate both 75mm and 57mm Casings as RARE. You will find them in Museums, VFWs, Rotaries, Surplus Stores, and Gunshops. Both Training Rounds AND "Demilled" Casings would require some skill in either TIG welding or Machining to become functional. I'd chance a "demilled" Case (because I can TIG fairly well) but pass on Machining the Primer Pocket of a Casing (because this exceeds MY Skillset). Unfortunately not that many rounds will be available and you will use SIGNIFICANT resources to make them.

Ok why do I love this forum - this post right here is why I love this forum - where else do you find all this kind of fascinating detail presented so well?

Well done Sir!

FYI - Littlefield had a literal ton of the the demilled shells/practice rounds/etc. that Swaghauler just described above and the machinists and know how on how to make them into live shells

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Olefin

FYI - Littlefield had a literal ton of the the demilled shells/practice rounds/etc. that Swaghauler just described above and the machinists and know how on how to make them into live shells

Do you have a source for that information? While I quite happily agree with you that if anyone would probably have a group of people with those skills, it would be Littlefield and his compatriots at his museum but I'd still like to read the source myself before accepting it as fact.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Do you have a source for that information? While I quite happily agree with you that if anyone would probably have a group of people with those skills, it would be Littlefield and his compatriots at his museum but I'd still like to read the source myself before accepting it as fact.

The shells were part of what was auctioned off when the collection was sold - all the shells they auctioned were either inert or practice rounds or dummy rounds - so if had live ammo it wasnt part of the auction for sure - have to see if I can find the print out on the auction I used to have - let me see when I get home tonight.

As to the machinists for the kind of conversion work that Swaghauler described - part of what he did to make the vehicles look authentic was to restore the rounds he had to look like they were ready to go live rounds to give that final bit of authenticity - you can see that in photos that have been posted over the years on flickr and other sites by people who went there. Thus if they can do that then its not much of a stretch to do the remaining work to make the shells live - what he would need is an explosives expert - and given his resources and ability to find technicians and restoration experts that wouldnt be that big an issue.

[mpipes]

Swaghauler that was not my understanding of the legalities, but I yield to one with practical experience. Shame though. There are a few rural PDs that have it wrong!

How hard is it to make a shell casing then? Could you get by with a cloth bag holding propellant? Steel coffee cans and such?

Olefin, try and stick in a few muzzle loading cannon.

[Olefin]

and here you go as promised - so as you can see he had a lot of shells, casings and missile tubes - and more than enough casings, shells, etc.. to arm what he had given the right people and plans - and if you want to see what else you can see tons of engines, gun parts, wheels, tracks, range finders, etc.

http://old.auctionsamerica.com/event...owsperpage=all

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/L...s/r5045/573773

Lot P128 Crate Of 105mm M115B1 Ordinance With Target Practice Projectiles

Lot P148 Crate of miscellaneous shell casings

Lot P165 Lot of shell racks, shell casings and missile tubes

Lot P167 Lot of projectiles fused and training mix

Lot P195 Large lot of shells, casings and storage tubes

Lot P206 - M724A1 105mm TPDS-T training rounds - This discarding sabot round is similar in external appearance and is ballistically similar to 2000 meters with the APDS-T Cartridge M392A2.

Lot P243, Lot P297 - each lot was Two crates of 40mm M25 rounds

Lot P281 - 105mm howitzer illumination rounds, 90mm rounds

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by mpipes

Swaghauler that was not understanding of the legalities, but I yield to one with practical experience. Shame though. There are a few rural PDs that have it wrong!

How hard is it to make a shell casing then? Could you get by with a cloth bag holding propellant? Steel coffee cans and such?

Olefin, try and stick in a few muzzle loading cannon.

The BATF regulations involving Armor Piercing Ammunition were added to the Gun Control Act of 1968. They Are part of the US Title 18 Crimes Codes. The SPECIFIC sections are:

USC 921
USC 922
USC 925

These sections make it ILLEGAL to possess, transport, sell, or manufacture Armor Piercing Ammunition. They also give a description of what AP ammo is comprised of (in essence a list of prohibited materials in ammo manufacturing). This Federal law TRUMPS ALL STATE LAW. State Laws vary and some states may have allowed AP ammo prior to the GCA of 1968. How strict BATF interpretations are is entirely dependent on which political party is in power. Under Bush 43, BATF NFA wait times dropped from 1 YEAR to just 120 DAYS per form 1 check. They climbed again under President Obama and really haven't fallen under Trump.

Making Shell Casings:

A qualified machinist with a "properly speced" shell to properly measure could crank out new casings but it would take resources. Brass will be in short supply and functioning machine shops not far behind. You CANNOT use a "Bagged Powder Charge" in place of a cartridge round UNLESS the weapon system in question SPECIFICALLY says so. This is because the casing serves a number of functions.

FIRST: Casings act as "heat sinks" drawing excess heat as well as unburned powder out of the weapon's action. They also hold a primer which is usually ignited by a hammer/percussion system (bag and projectile systems use a SEPARATE primer that usually looks like a .38 pistol cartridge and the weapon has an external hammer that strikes this externally loaded primer cartridge).

SECOND: Casings center the round to the bore. If you look at separately loaded rounds (like the 155mm howitzers) you will see that the shell often has a brass "driving band" around its base. This is to help center the round and make sure it doesn't become damaged during firing. Seating this driving band against the rifling is a KEY REASON for the often violent "ramming" of a round seen in videos of towed 155mm gun crews. An improper ram will create accuracy issues AND potentially reduce the round's maximum range. Cartridge ammo has NO driving band as the head of the case acts as the index for accuracy.

THIRD: Cases act as "auxiliary pressure vessels." A cartridge is an integral component in managing both pressure forces AND recoil forces when the weapon is fired. Taking the case out of the system could dangerously affect how the weapon handles both the pressure of firing and the subsequent "recoil impulse" after firing.

As you can see, you just can't "replace" a cartridge with a separately loaded bag of powder.

I have a GREAT respect for black powder weapons. Other than their slow reload times, they are EVERY BIT AS DEADLY AS MODERN WEAPONS. Twilight2000 ERRONEOUSLY makes light of these weapons just like they do with projectile weapons. A Colt Walker Revolver loaded to normal levels has a stopping power that EXCEEDS modern .45 LONG COLT AND .44 SPECIAL ballistics. The .44 Army Cap and Ball is equal in power to a .45 ACP and the .36 Navy Cap and Ball actually EXCEEDS most 4" .38 Special revolvers in power. Black powder weapons are NOT weak.

Going even further back, just YouTube Pumpkin' Chunkin' and take a look at the power of ancient siege engines. If an air cannon can launch an EIGHT POUND PUMPKIN OVER A KILOMETER, it can launch an 8lb rock too. Look at the Trebuchet's power in use. In fact, one weapon I have considered making is a modern version of a Ballista using truck leaf springs. Imagine 4 leaf springs stacked on what would be, in essence, a crossbow on steroids that fired a 6-foot metal spear. You would use a come-along/winch to cock it and the bowstring would be 10 gauge wire like the stuff used in skyscraper antenna guidewires. I'm willing to bet that it could shoot that 6ft "bolt" completely through a modern passenger car. Primitive does NOT mean ineffective.