Fiddle's Green

[perardua]

It always amuses me that the British SAS pretty much returned to their roots during the Gulf War - a clusterfuck in the form of B20, followed by going to much more successful Land Rover columns behind enemy lines - just like in Africa during WW2!

On the subject of light armour, there is some worry that if the Future Rapid Effect System is adopted by the British Army, we will lose the capabilities our CVR(T) family gave us. FRES is planned to be our future medium weight forces, comprising both tracked 'specialist vehicles' (recce, engineering, medical, etc) and wheeled 'utility vehicles' (APCs, etc), originally with a requirement to be C-130 portable, but that has since been dropped as unworkable. Of course, given the current state of the defence budget, this programme may not ever see the light of day, or at least, will be cut back significantly.

Regardless, while medium weight forces have their place, they will result in the loss of our light armour, which does offer quite a few useful capabilities. For a start, unmodified CVR(T) vehicles are light enough that not only are they easily carried in a C-130, but they can be underslung on a Chinook. There have also been reported incidents of the extremely low ground pressure of these vehicles making them unable to set off anti-tank mines, as well as enabling them to traverse extremely soft terrain (the Scorpions and Scimitars deployed to the Falklands proved this, and one of the regrets of the task force was that they did not take more). While the 30mm cannon on a Scorpion is not well-suited for fighting heavy armour, it is a good system for supporting light infantry, especially mounted on a platform that can get a lot of places. The downside in the current operational context, of course, is the vulnerability to IEDs.

[Abbott Shaull]

It amazing how everyone wants C130 air transport capability and yet it seems to be first things that gets dropped when they start adding other things for the vehicle to do.

Yeah, well that is one of the things that US Army let slide by the way side. With an emphasis on Heavy Forces and very little money spent on Light and Medium forces until after the fact, even after having twenty years to come up something... *shrug*

It can't be fun bing a light unit being sent to a UN Peacekeeping Mission knowing that many of the other units you will be working with would be better equipped than you.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

It amazing how everyone wants C130 air transport capability and yet it seems to be first things that gets dropped when they start adding other things for the vehicle to do.

Yeah, well that is one of the things that US Army let slide by the way side. With an emphasis on Heavy Forces and very little money spent on Light and Medium forces until after the fact, even after having twenty years to come up something... *shrug*

It can't be fun bing a light unit being sent to a UN Peacekeeping Mission knowing that many of the other units you will be working with would be better equipped than you.

Remember the design requirements for a tank:

1) It must be capable of taking out an enemy tank with one shot.

2) It must be able to withstand enemy antitank fire.

3) It must be able to be transported by a C-130.

Pick two.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Remember the design requirements for a tank:

1) It must be capable of taking out an enemy tank with one shot.

2) It must be able to withstand enemy antitank fire.

3) It must be able to be transported by a C-130.

Pick two.

Hey that list is unfair... Because you can't have option one or two along with option 3...lol So you are stuck with options 1 and 2...lol

[Legbreaker]

Of course you can although you have to pull back a bit on #2. It's called an armoured humvee with a TOW.

Oh, you want tracks on it...? I'm sure we can come up with a kit to replace the wheels. Should only cost about a billion dollars to develop and then half a million for each unit to produce...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Oh, you want tracks on it...? I'm sure we can come up with a kit to replace the wheels. Should only cost about a billion dollars to develop and then half a million for each unit to produce...

They've done that already as an experiment. I have a picture somewhere...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

They've done that already as an experiment. I have a picture somewhere...

Hmm, ok, scratch that. A billion dollars to refine the prototype (aka paint it a different shade of green) and prepare it for production....

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Of course you can although you have to pull back a bit on #2. It's called an armoured humvee with a TOW.

Oh, you want tracks on it...? I'm sure we can come up with a kit to replace the wheels. Should only cost about a billion dollars to develop and then half a million for each unit to produce...

Well first they have to make an Armored Humvee that really Armored...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Well first they have to make an Armored Humvee that really Armored...

It stops a 9mmP doesn't it? That's armoured...

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It stops a 9mmP doesn't it? That's armoured...

Oh that the protection I want to ride in and feel safe in. Even the unarmored Humvee would stand a decent chance of stopping this round...lol

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Hmm, ok, scratch that. A billion dollars to refine the prototype (aka paint it a different shade of green) and prepare it for production....

Geez, I can tell you never had any experience with the defense contractors...

You stamp out a tin-plate addition that is bolted somewhere to break up the outline, then scrap the last four digits of the serial number off and replace with higher numbers...and then charge a 75% cost overrun due to the "speed" with which you developed the "new" prototype.

These are the experts that convinced the Navy to buy adjustable wrenches, "silenced for submarine service", they simply dipped the handle in vinyl....cost the company all of $5.00 each for the coating and another 20.00 for "off-the shelf" wrenches and charged the Navy $500.00.....

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Geez, I can tell you never had any experience with the defense contractors...

You stamp out a tin-plate addition that is bolted somewhere to break up the outline, then scrap the last four digits of the serial number off and replace with higher numbers...and then charge a 75% cost overrun due to the "speed" with which you developed the "new" prototype.

These are the experts that convinced the Navy to buy adjustable wrenches, "silenced for submarine service", they simply dipped the handle in vinyl....cost the company all of $5.00 each for the coating and another 20.00 for "off-the shelf" wrenches and charged the Navy $500.00.....

What supplier contractors aren't suppose to make a profit either. Remember they have labor cost too..lol

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

What supplier contractors aren't suppose to make a profit either. Remember they have labor cost too..lol

What labor costs? They farmed the contract to a company based in China...

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

What labor costs? They farmed the contract to a company based in China...

Now they do now, but there was time you would only find American made product in the hand of the troops...lol

Then again many of these contractor have their suppliers shipping them supplies with x% of reduction of pricing every year for the lifetime of the contract. Much like the Auto Industry force down their Suppliers throat even though cost such as shipping, material, utilities, and what not usually went up while they were force to keep their wages low to be compete for the few contracts. While they kept paying their exec big money, their line worker quite well because the Unions felt they needed bloated wages. While the people working at many of their low end suppliers could barely make living let alone afford to buy new vehicle.

Don't get me started on the just in time production penalties that were enforce when shipments were late not due to their supplier, but still they were the ones who paid for shutting down a line. Granted there was time in the Auto Industry where at some plants they had inventory for vehicles that they had made a generation before at times. It one of the many reason at one time, it wasn't a problem to find parts for vehicle that were 20+ years old. Their inventory of parts was that huge, where now you have trouble finding parts for anything vehicle that is over life-time of it Warranty. We had 1995 Chevy Lumina Mini Van but we couldn't find parts as simple as track for the door windows. Ugh.

Sorry for getting on the soap box. Stepping off it now.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

They've done that already as an experiment. I have a picture somewhere...

Paul,

Stick a TOW II on this and we're done:



Tony

[Legbreaker]

Better give it a coat of nice shiny tin foil first as protection against the lasers the enemy are fielding...

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

We had 1995 Chevy Lumina Mini Van but we couldn't find parts as simple as track for the door windows. Ugh.

Compare this to the US Army...during an bi-annual audit at a certain military base located in the state of Oklahoma, and home to the redleg branch of the service, my team and I had the pleasure of opening up some old warehouses, emptying them and getting to verify the count of the contents....included in this was, I kid you not, a rather large shipping crate that had been butted up against the wall, behind several large stacks. The markings were badly faded, so we had to open it. Inside the crate was a US Army M-1894A4 75mm Field Gun on a original Pattern 1917 carriage. It had been shipped to Fort Sill in 1918, had been stored ever since in this warehouse, lost from inventory.

I have seen M-1 Garands, M-1 Carbines, M-1 Thompsons, M-1918A2 BARs,
M-1919A4 LMGs, still in their original 1942 crates, still stored in QM warehouses. Crates of Korean War-vintage uniforms, C-Rations with 1941 dates, cases of toilet paper made in 1948 and the list goes on and on and on.
In a series of warehouses in Virginia, they still store Civil War-era artillery pieces (for use by the Historical section and the National Park Service, but how many 12-pounder Napoleons need to be stored for national security?).

After one particular audit, our running joke was that the US Army was prepared to refight all of its wars at once!

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah reminds me of stories that I heard about the warehouse of stock they had over in Europe at one time. There were so many scattered locations that some of the smaller caches were from time to time lost track of. You this was before the day of modern GPS system...

[dragoon500ly]

Stationed at Erlangen, FRG with the 1st AD back in 1978...

I was standing Gate Guard one New Years Eve when a GI attempted to reenter the post. The Gate Guard had to stop this guy due to what he was carrying back onto base. A Stu.44 Assault Rifle, complete with a WWII German helmet and web gear.

It seems our young drunk had gotten lost and entered an old building, thinking that it was a short cut back to the ole kaserne. He somehow wound up in the basement and break through an old door. In the sub basement he found an old steel door leading into an old air raid shelter and had gotten lost.

In one of the old store rooms, he found several crates of material that had been forgotten, and this was the source of his fashion accessories.

The local Poliezi and the CID later pulled over twenty tons of material out of that old air raid bunker. Crate after crate of rifles, SMGs, pistols, assault rifles and machineguns; cases of ammo and grenades; crates of uniforms, boots, just about everything necessary to equip a couple of companies if infantry.

According to one Poliezi that I spook with, they found such a cache about every two years. The museums would get first claim, then the rest was destroyed. His reason, Erlangen had been headquarters for the Waffen SS in southern Germany and had built litterly hundreds of such caches as part of the Southern Redoubt that Hitler was building by 1945.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Stationed at Erlangen, FRG with the 1st AD back in 1978...

I was standing Gate Guard one New Years Eve when a GI attempted to reenter the post. The Gate Guard had to stop this guy due to what he was carrying back onto base. A Stu.44 Assault Rifle, complete with a WWII German helmet and web gear.

It seems our young drunk had gotten lost and entered an old building, thinking that it was a short cut back to the ole kaserne. He somehow wound up in the basement and break through an old door. In the sub basement he found an old steel door leading into an old air raid shelter and had gotten lost.

In one of the old store rooms, he found several crates of material that had been forgotten, and this was the source of his fashion accessories.

The local Poliezi and the CID later pulled over twenty tons of material out of that old air raid bunker. Crate after crate of rifles, SMGs, pistols, assault rifles and machineguns; cases of ammo and grenades; crates of uniforms, boots, just about everything necessary to equip a couple of companies if infantry.

According to one Poliezi that I spook with, they found such a cache about every two years. The museums would get first claim, then the rest was destroyed. His reason, Erlangen had been headquarters for the Waffen SS in southern Germany and had built litterly hundreds of such caches as part of the Southern Redoubt that Hitler was building by 1945.

Sounds like Iraq with a weapon depot on every corner after we went in 2003.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Sounds like Iraq with a weapon depot on every corner after we went in 2003.

Nothing says loving your neighbor like staching enough weapons to blow his shit away....and that punk on the next street that plays his hip-hop way too loud at 0430....

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Nothing says loving your neighbor like staching enough weapons to blow his shit away....and that punk on the next street that plays his hip-hop way too loud at 0430....

What punk playing what at? We took care of his boom box, and he was collateral damage! Did get our point across.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

What punk playing what at? We took care of his boom box, and he was collateral damage! Did get our point across.

Down here he was hit with everything from .22 Mag up to .50-caliber BMG...and we have a Civil War re-enactor just down the road, complete with 12-pounder Napoleon....try to run our roadblock!

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Down here he was hit with everything from .22 Mag up to .50-caliber BMG...and we have a Civil War re-enactor just down the road, complete with 12-pounder Napoleon....try to run our roadblock!

One of the great thing of the US road system, I don't have to go through the road block, I can find an alternate route and go around it. Only in few cases, such as the far northern part of Michigan on across over to Washington, and most of the other western states once you get beyond Kansas, Nebraska, and Iowa. There alternative route may add a few hundred miles easily. Where everything in the east and along the Pacific West Coast most work alternative route are just annoyance waiting for the kids to ask how much longer it going to be or if we are there yet.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

One of the great thing of the US road system, I don't have to go through the road block, I can find an alternate route and go around it. Only in few cases, such as the far northern part of Michigan on across over to Washington, and most of the other western states once you get beyond Kansas, Nebraska, and Iowa. There alternative route may add a few hundred miles easily. Where everything in the east and along the Pacific West Coast most work alternative route are just annoyance waiting for the kids to ask how much longer it going to be or if we are there yet.

BEG!!!

But where I live, there are only two roads in...and if you set up on the ridge (all of 12m high!) you can keep both roads under fire. The rest of the area is creek and swamp...

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

BEG!!!

But where I live, there are only two roads in...and if you set up on the ridge (all of 12m high!) you can keep both roads under fire. The rest of the area is creek and swamp...

Sounds interesting...lol Yeah I didn't say it was be easy to bypass all roadblocks, but in many locations it would take lot of resource to set up effective blocking force... There are way to many areas in the East and along the West Coast where you simply bypass them and attempt to starve them into submission...lol

[Panther Al]

Currently in Frederick MD on business, and was talking to a few folks down here. A couple of interesting things was brought up.

First, just to get it out of the way, the road trips to see the sights of the Allegheny Uprising was rather cool in and of itself.

But second, and the reason for bringing the thread back to life, was the discussion I had on the Stryker. I shall now pause for boos and hisses..


Right.
A point was made in the discussion that I though made enough sense that it should be brought up. The biggest thing a lot of us have against the Stryker is that we are comparing it (And I think the Army is guilty of this as well) to the Bradley, that it should and could be used as a wheeled version of. In this respect, all the hate is justified. But as a replacement for the 113, in the role of a slightly souped up battle taxi, perhaps the Stryker, working within that particular doctrine, that of taking the infantry to the battlefield, and kicking them out before they get into it deep, might not be as bad as we all tend to think?

[dragoon500ly]

If Stryker was being used to replace the M113, then I can agree with you. But them there folks with all dem shiny stars are using that there ole'Stryker to replace Bradleys.

And thats my problem.

To be sure, there is a place for a medium/light AFV, but has been proven time and time again, since the tank was introduced....there is a need for heavy armor.

One only hopes that the Army's leadership pulls its collective head out of its primary point of contact and figure that out.

[Panther Al]

Exactly, they think its a replacement for the Brad. Scary bit is, is that so far its working: Because the oppo's are lightly armed and poorly trained insurgents, we are getting away with it, but the moment we try the same stunts we are doing now against a force that is trained and properly equipped, its gonna be bad.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Exactly, they think its a replacement for the Brad. Scary bit is, is that so far its working: Because the oppo's are lightly armed and poorly trained insurgents, we are getting away with it, but the moment we try the same stunts we are doing now against a force that is trained and properly equipped, its gonna be bad.

Wouldn't you agree that a key reason the Strykers are being bought in such numbers is that our foes anymore appear to be those lightly-armed and definitely unmechanized forces? I seriously doubt that if we were still in the throes of the Cold War, this wouldn't be an issue-- we'd be keeping the full mechanized forces. But that's not what is needed right now.

OTOH, I may have missed something: are ALL the Bradleys going away, to be replaced by Strykers, or just MOST of them? Are the Bradleys being scrapped, sent down to the NG, or just being mothballed?