WikiLeaks Kabul War Diary

[Muti]

Besides the US polemics surrounding this website I found very useful information on small unit actions for example.

http://wardiary.wikileaks.org/

[Abbott Shaull]

Was wondering when this would be brought up.

There are so many place one could go but I won't on it.

I will repeat that with all of this information one has to be careful how much you post. With Field Manuals combined with actual reports, well even some punk with 6th grade education could figure things out if he got his hands on enough intel... I am just as uncomfortable as those who are in the armed services with the amount of information.

Just remember most of the cover ups are by Company and Battalion level officers who wish to raise up within the ranks higher. On one hand, I know they can't be everywhere not like in the old days when Company/Battalion would be in armies where they lined up and shot at each other... Also during that time fighting then usually started at first light and ended at night, where today with technology war is 24 hours experience.

We still run the military much like they use to run back centuries ago, without thinking the ramification of having running operation 24 hours a day and how things have to be adjust. With that said I will get off the soap box...

[pmulcahy11b]

As far as the parts where the Pakistanis aren't really our friends...who didn't know that?

This WikiLeaks reports comes days after the reporting on MSNBC that our intelligence community may be so big and monolithic that keeping anything secret may be impossible.

[jester]

The question is, how many folks on the ground in theater are going to be in harms way because of this?

I have seen the clips of the idiot from Der Spiegel, and he seems a bit to smug. For that alone I would love to bash his face in.

As for the newspappers who are pushing it, tend to focus on the sensational and have a proven bias. So much for objective reporting.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by jester

As for the newspappers who are pushing it, tend to focus on the sensational and have a proven bias. So much for objective reporting.

What is this "objective reporting" of which you speak? Is it like your rabbit that bounces about the yards on Easter, laying eggs and bringing chocolates?

- C.

[Mohoender]

There is no "objective reporting". Reporters are only interested in getting the "Big News" and the Pulitzer or something similar.

Nevertheless, I remained convinced that part of it is true. War is never clean but it's not a reason not to grant respect to soldiers fighting. I don't know war, don't want to know it and I'm equally sure that most troops are simply fighting.

As I said to an American friend in 2003 while visiting US: put two stickers on your cars: "Bring Them Home" and "Support Our Troops". At the time, these stickers were opposed, I never understood why as both make sence. It seemed that the British are better at understand it.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

As I said to an American friend in 2003 while visiting US: put two stickers on your cars: "Bring Them Home" and "Support Our Troops". At the time, these stickers were opposed, I never understood why as both make sence. It seemed that the British are better at understand it.

It is quite possible to support the troops and understand and feel for the sacrifice they are making, yet oppose the war in which they are fighting. It's how I feel about the Iraq invasion. Soldiers may fight the wars, but they don't start them. That's done by politicians, and their reasons for starting them may be less than sterling or moral. That's how I feel about the Iraq War.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

It is quite possible to support the troops and understand and feel for the sacrifice they are making, yet oppose the war in which they are fighting. It's how I feel about the Iraq invasion. Soldiers may fight the wars, but they don't start them. That's done by politicians, and their reasons for starting them may be less than sterling or moral. That's how I feel about the Iraq War.

The late, great Bill Hicks once said 'I'm in the unusal position of being for the troops, but against the war', in reference to the first Gulf War iirc. Sums up a ot of peoples feelings here in the UK anyway, especially regarding the current Iraq situation.

[Mohoender]

Paul,we agree and I'm not surprised about it. However, it didn't seemed to be possible back in 2003. You are right soldiers never start wars but people tend to support them.

I'll never forget what a french Poilu said in 1989. The journalist, in front of him, had said that WW1 had proved how brave they all were. The man replied the following : "WW1 proved only one thing, that you had as many fools on both side of the border".

My Grand Father held a similar position about war. The only time my Grand Pa screamed at me was when I foolishly suggested that some good could come out of War. His answer was simple: "The only thing that comes out of war is destruction, nothing is ever built out of war". Please, no need to discuss it. I would not take it badly but God himself could not challenge that.

Strangely, that didn't make me a pacifist.

[Dog 6]

The biggest problem with the world is overpopulation. I support any and all military actions that curtail it.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

The biggest problem with the world is overpopulation. I support any and all military actions that curtail it.

Mass atomic bombing! Do it for the kids, for the kids!

[Targan]

While I am very interested in hearing peoples' opinions on the topic of this thread I fear this is the sort of subject that could lead to conflict on this forum. I and the other moderators will be keeping an eye on this discussion, please lets try not to get too political (because we all know where that leads). If it even looks like starting to get nasty in this thread we'll shut it down.

*Putting away stern face now*

[HorseSoldier]

While normally extremely pro free speech, something about the way their title page interjects the word "secret" so salaciously into their write up makes me pine for happier times when the CIA could have just disappeared the site's founder. If it can be demonstrated that any member of the US military, various other international forces serving in country, UN employees or NGO aid workers or anyone else loses their life as a result of this leak I hope the leak and the media whores publicizing it are held fully accountable.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Targan

While I am very interested in hearing peoples' opinions on the topic of this thread I fear this is the sort of subject that could lead to conflict on this forum. I and the other moderators will be keeping an eye on this discussion, please lets try not to get too political (because we all know where that leads). If it even looks like starting to get nasty in this thread we'll shut it down.

*Putting away stern face now*

Wise but, so far, it led to laughter. I bet that the worse for you is to restrain yourself.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

While I am very interested in hearing peoples' opinions on the topic of this thread I fear this is the sort of subject that could lead to conflict on this forum. I and the other moderators will be keeping an eye on this discussion, please lets try not to get too political (because we all know where that leads). If it even looks like starting to get nasty in this thread we'll shut it down.

*Putting away stern face now*

Yeah, that's why I'm avoiding my opinion of the current Afghanistan War. Controversial, too political, and it will spark a flame war, I fear.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah well all I have to say about Pakistan government, is look how may times them and India have turned to the US/UK and Soviet/Russia/China over the past 50 years for supplies. When your ruling government really rules the few large cities in the country and the countryside are ruled by local tribial leader/warlords or whatever you wish to call them. The people who are in the central government are there because they weren't strong enough for their own ambitions local, and nationally well when people get assassinated with regular frequency.

Sad thing is that with many nations it how it is. Their a central government set up in the Capital and they have limited control in many of the other larger cities/towns of the country, but the out in the countryside it the local 'bandits' who rule. Even in the so called Industrialized Nations there are still areas where the government has very little say what goes on. Russia and China have this problem quite regular, but due to the way their government control what is reported, you don't hear about it much. When we do hear about it, then it show the magnitude of the problem. Kinda sad the Russia can't defeat a so called rebel force within their borders, but they can roll over Georgia who by rights of NATO being in the process of joining should of got more support than lip service from Brussel.

Even in the US with the FBI which control the crime stats. that get published they pick and choose what crimes they really report. There is reason why Intermodel trains traffic has increase over the years. Just sad that at the same time other commercial trucking has picked up just as fast. There are reason why some trucking companies run their trucks in mini-convoy style of 3 or trucks, and why in some area they may be spread out for a couple miles and in other locales they are grouped and stay together.....

I for one do support the troops, used to be one them. The war in Iraq was expensive side-show and took away the focus of the one already in progress. In the end that led to both missions succeeding in limited objectives, but missing the mark in the overall objective in making the world a tad bit safer for everyone. Oh well not wanting to start a flame war...

Just some thoughts...

[Ironside]

The India/Pakistan problems go back to before the 1947 partition and I certainly don't want to open that can of worms!

Like many here I support the troops but oppose the war. Unfortunatly when you have a political class (and I'm not talking party politics here), that has little to no experience of war or even of military service, they feel it OK to start wars where others will do the fighting and dieing. I hope that nobody will lose their lives due to the document exposure, but I fear that a lot will.

War is exciting for armchair soldiers like me in an RPG; when the armchair soldiers are politicians moving real people not plastic figures it's a whole different ball game!

[Abbott Shaull]

The Information has been out there for awhile, you needed to know where to look. *Shrug*

The potential lost of life is where I think lot of people have issues with site.

What gets to me with this internet thing, it was only matter of time before someone who didn't have clue would become a danger to those in harm way.

20-30 years ago, the entire site would of been shut down and people who contributed to the site would of have been never seen again alive outside of retention centers, but again that another story and soil piece of the pass...

[Muti]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...d=opinionsbox1

Mmmmm...

Looks like this Thiessen is the former speechwriter of George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. Thiessen is also the same guy who said that waterboarding is permitted by the Catholic Church. Even here in Italy (the "heart" of the Catholic world) this sounds ridicolous

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/27/us...iefs.html?_r=1

Thiessen says that USA could use the "Authority of the FBI to Override International Law in Extraterritorial Law Enforcement Activities" or the "US Cyber Command" to conduct full-spectrum cyberspace operations in defense of US national security.

I suppose that probably your Washington Post didn't appreciate that Wikileaks contacted the New York Times for the examination of the documents before the publication

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Muti

Mmmmm...

Looks like this Thiessen is the former speechwriter of George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. Thiessen is also the same guy who said that waterboarding is permitted by the Catholic Church. Even here in Italy (the "heart" of the Catholic world) this sounds ridicolous

He must have been inspired by the medieval and spanish inquisition which both authorized the use of torture and probably overlooked the fact that these were taking place more than 500 years ago. He must have slept under some painting of Bernardo Gui and Tomas de Torquemada.

As it's wiki, I'm not convinced it's true but if his mother effectively fought during the Warsaw uprising, I hope she is now dead.

[jester]

Well Mo;

Such methods were also common especialy durring the Salem witch trials in New England which of course were carried over from England as well.


However, in some cases, persuasion in my view is perfectly acceptable and reasonable. I had a shouting match with a history prof a couple years back about the topic. Then again he was a flaming leftist using every moment to rant his political views <of current times> when we were studying history of the 19th century. The 1st 4 hours of class was how the president should be impeached and tried in the hague and how he was a regional campaign manager for one of the candidates. His rants alone were torture enough.

One must consider that one never has the full spectrum of the picture when events are occuring. Only after can we see all the peices of the puzzle.

As for the info, eh, I have read more than my share of such info. It put me to sleep regularly.

Last Sunday I was listening to a radio talkshow <Brian Suites> and he discussed that the young Pvt soon to be Prisoner, had done similiar while in training at his MOS school, placing youtube blogs ARGH!!!! What was he thinking, what was his command thinking argh! A break in the system, or falling through the plentiful cracks that exist.


Now, how would something like that be handled in T2K? It would make an interesting campaign. There is an intel leak or mole. <Albeit, in this campaign, the leak would be a bit more smarter as would his handler, and truly beleive in the rightousness of his cause.> It is now the PCs mission to find him, catch him and the data and eliminate the handler. I can see alot of plot material for that type of scenario.

[Mohoender]

Jester

France used torture in Algeria, Algerians used it against the french as well. US used it also on several occasions. It has been used and still is. As a man, I condemn it. One can express a different opinion but justifying torture by hiding behind the catholic church is offensive and proves only once cowardice (by the way you don't).

About info, I have no opinion and didn't read anything about what was released on Internet. I consider this unreliable at best.

For Salem, a wild guess on my part will put its origins in Germany. Actually, England is the only country were torture was never used as a rule.

Could be a very interesting campaign indeed for T2K.

[jester]

Another thing is, "torture" was used frequently on the American Frontier, just for the purpose of inflicting pain and not to gain intelligence or other information. Which would lead to retaliation or in modern wording, "PAYBACK!" So, it often does begin a pendulum of escalation.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by jester

Another thing is, "torture" was used frequently on the American Frontier, just for the purpose of inflicting pain and not to gain intelligence or other information. Which would lead to retaliation or in modern wording, "PAYBACK!" So, it often does begin a pendulum of escalation.

I didn't know that one but similar things were done by the French, Belgian, British..., in their colonies. Nothing really surprising.