British Infantry Rifles

[James Langham]

At the minute this just covers the standard rifles, when I have time I will add sniper rifles, etc.

[95th Rifleman]

I must admit mate, I'm impressed! Good write up, well researched and the fictional bits are well written and make sense.

[Rainbow Six]

Nice piece of work - I particularly like the quotes in the sidebars.

Well done.

[Raellus]

Good work, as always, James.

[Rockwolf66]

Good Article about the regular British Army. I know that the SAS and whatever the 14th Intelligence company is now designated uses some different weapons.

For the 14th they use the

Walther PPK
Browning High Power(probably replaced by the SIG P226)
MP5K
HK53 short assault rifle
G3KA4 short assault rifle

The SAS uses similar weapons, but given that they are tasked with Direct action some things are added lile the M16 with M203.

Then Again this is TW2K and some things didn't happen and other things got put into production.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

The SAS uses similar weapons, but given that they are tasked with Direct action some things are added lile the M16 with M203.

Then Again this is TW2K and some things didn't happen and other things got put into production.

The SAS use the modified Canadian variant of the M4 with the M203. They also tend to use whatever they happen to pick up so it's hard to come up with any kind of standard issue list for them. Generaly they will start out with a selection of M4's, LMGs and sniper rifles and end up with whatever they can find or need in the field.

In the 90's the anti-terror SAS units did tend to be more standardised, carrying the MP5 and 9mm Browning HP sidearms.

[Rockwolf66]

That list I posted is from a former 14th Intel company member. The unit was formed to gather intel on the IRA and thus their weapons are compact and concealable. in the TW2K timeline I know that they would turn their bag of tricks on the Russians.

You have to admire the dedication of someone who is willing to live inside a briar patch for a week in order to get good intelligence.

Unfortunatly for me my knowledge of the SAS is limited to some family accounts and some limited info about the SAS in Gulf War 1*.

*No I do not own Bravo Two Zero.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

In the 1990s the British SASR definitely used M16A2 (or Canadian C7) rifles with some fitted with M203s. One of my friends got his hands on them when the Brit SAS came to Australia for some desert training prior to Gulf War 1. He was fortunate enough to be one of the local troops assigned to assisting them while they were in Western Australia.

Forgot to mention, the M16A2(C7) were Safe-Single-Auto trigger groups and not the US Army's Safe-Single-Burst type

[Rockwolf66]

Cracking open my copy of Sabre Squadron, they mention the following.

Giat 20mm Autocannon(not used in the Gulf War because it wasn't fully tested.

Milan Missile Launcher fitted with MIRA

M2HB QCB

FIM-92 Stinger

M16A2
M203

MK-19

81mm mortar
51mm Mortar

M72 LAW

LAW90

M202 "Flash"

FN MAG


I know I'm forgetting some stuff but you get the idea.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

In the 1990s the British SASR definitely used M16A2 (or Canadian C7) rifles with some fitted with M203s. One of my friends got his hands on them when the Brit SAS came to Australia for some desert training prior to Gulf War 1. He was fortunate enough to be one of the local troops assigned to assisting them while they were in Western Australia.

Very nice write up.

On the SAS weaponry, I don't know if the L119s would exist in the Twilight War timeline. US and everyone else's enthusiasm for M4 style carbines probably did not take hold to the same extent and in the same way, with M4/C8/etc being more of a personal defense weapon than a primary. Not to say the SAS wouldn't be running CAR-15s, Canadian C8s, or US M4s, just that I don't see them having a version tweaked to their requirements (largely driven by Iraq/Afghanistan) in the Twilight timeline (in either of them).

Forgot to mention, the M16A2(C7) were Safe-Single-Auto trigger groups and not the US Army's Safe-Single-Burst type

As described in the write up, wartime procurement was a mix and match of US and Canadian weapons. I think all the real world M16s in UK service (not counting post-9/11 stuff like the 119s) were the original safe-semi-auto fire control group. Does anyone know if they were upgraded to keep them compatible with SS109 ammo when NATO switched over and how/who did the upgrades? Did they just slap A2 uppers on their existing lowers?

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

Good Article about the regular British Army. I know that the SAS and whatever the 14th Intelligence company is now designated uses some different weapons.

For the 14th they use the

Walther PPK
Browning High Power(probably replaced by the SIG P226)
MP5K
HK53 short assault rifle
G3KA4 short assault rifle

The SAS uses similar weapons, but given that they are tasked with Direct action some things are added lile the M16 with M203.

Then Again this is TW2K and some things didn't happen and other things got put into production.

14 Int are now the Special Reconnaissance Rgt.

Royal Military Police Close Protection teams also used most of these.

P226/228 is now on general issue in Afghanistan.

SAS etc tend to use the C7 and C8, they previously also used the Car15 (see the film Who Dares Wins for a good shot that showed this before it was ever officially stated).

I'll put some notes in on these for the next edition.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Does anyone know if they were upgraded to keep them compatible with SS109 ammo when NATO switched over and how/who did the upgrades? Did they just slap A2 uppers on their existing lowers?

I know that the M16A1's we had over here had nothing done to them at all and we were putting SS109 through them. May not have been an ideal match of rifle and ammo, but they still worked.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Very nice write up.

On the SAS weaponry, I don't know if the L119s would exist in the Twilight War timeline. US and everyone else's enthusiasm for M4 style carbines probably did not take hold to the same extent and in the same way, with M4/C8/etc being more of a personal defense weapon than a primary. Not to say the SAS wouldn't be running CAR-15s, Canadian C8s, or US M4s, just that I don't see them having a version tweaked to their requirements (largely driven by Iraq/Afghanistan) in the Twilight timeline (in either of them).



As described in the write up, wartime procurement was a mix and match of US and Canadian weapons. I think all the real world M16s in UK service (not counting post-9/11 stuff like the 119s) were the original safe-semi-auto fire control group. Does anyone know if they were upgraded to keep them compatible with SS109 ammo when NATO switched over and how/who did the upgrades? Did they just slap A2 uppers on their existing lowers?

In my campaign the current heavily mod's weapons are far less common. As stated above Car15s are more common (but still unusual) for the SAS.

The M16s were the original trigger group. As far as I am aware the weapons were never upgraded as they were phased out at that time as the L85A1 was coming on stream. They just went into storage and new M16A2/C7s were bought for those who needed it.

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by James Langham

14 Int are now the Special Reconnaissance Rgt.

Royal Military Police Close Protection teams also used most of these.

P226/228 is now on general issue in Afghanistan.

SAS etc tend to use the C7 and C8, they previously also used the Car15 (see the film Who Dares Wins for a good shot that showed this before it was ever officially stated).

I'll put some notes in on these for the next edition.

My info is dated to the first Gulf War so it works for a TW2K game.

Generally the usual image of the SAS is guys who apear out of nowhere driving vehicles that could take out anything seen in the film Death Race. They might trade for some local info or maybe a few comfort items and any high value target in the area goes boom...Heck the destruction of high value targets in an area is usually how you know they are around.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

My info is dated to the first Gulf War so it works for a TW2K game.

Generally the usual image of the SAS is guys who apear out of nowhere driving vehicles that could take out anything seen in the film Death Race. They might trade for some local info or maybe a few comfort items and any high value target in the area goes boom...Heck the destruction of high value targets in an area is usually how you know they are around.

Depends on the environment, Europe will be more foot work and close observation as opposed to direct action (at least while airstrikes are available).

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Depends on the environment, Europe will be more foot work and close observation as opposed to direct action (at least while airstrikes are available).

Pretty much.

There is an endearing myth about the SAS that goes back to their WW2 days as raiders. The modern incarnation of the SAS are mostly recon and observation units. The Gulf war was a good example, the SAS was tasked with finding Iraqi scuds and calling down airstrikes, they where not tasked with going after them directly.

Compare that to the Russian Spetsnaz whose task is to go behind enemy lines and sabotage rear areas and eliminate HVTs.

Another role the SAS has found themselves in the past is as advisors and trainers, in asimilar fashion to the US green berets. In the twilight war I can envision SAS teams assistin anti-communist units behind soviet lines.

That's not to say the SAS can't or won't go after HVTs, especialy after the NATO air forces start to wind down operations due to losses and lack of parts. But it's not their primary role anymore.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

Pretty much.

There is an endearing myth about the SAS that goes back to their WW2 days as raiders. The modern incarnation of the SAS are mostly recon and observation units. The Gulf war was a good example, the SAS was tasked with finding Iraqi scuds and calling down airstrikes, they where not tasked with going after them directly.

Compare that to the Russian Spetsnaz whose task is to go behind enemy lines and sabotage rear areas and eliminate HVTs.

Another role the SAS has found themselves in the past is as advisors and trainers, in asimilar fashion to the US green berets. In the twilight war I can envision SAS teams assistin anti-communist units behind soviet lines.

That's not to say the SAS can't or won't go after HVTs, especialy after the NATO air forces start to wind down operations due to losses and lack of parts. But it's not their primary role anymore.

Another role for 23SAS was rescue to shot down pilots.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Another role for 23SAS was rescue to shot down pilots.

Good point

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Another role for 23SAS was rescue to shot down pilots.

If I recall correctly, the Cold War Territorial SAS units were tasked with a bunch of stay behind/infiltration missions in the Warsaw Pact rear -- calling air strikes and artillery on high value targets in the deep battle area, recovery of aviators and other isolated personnel (taking over the role of, if I recall correctly, MI 9 in WW2), and some tertiary derring do with raiding/sabotage of rail lines, bridges, etc. Not having to cover down on contingency missions and having a fairly specialized remit was (I'm guessing) hoped to overcome the difficulty of keeping reserve special operations effective.

Similar with at least some of the US reserve SF units. At least one battalion, maybe the whole group in 11th or 12th SFG (US Army Reserve) spent several decades training to do the same sort of role in Norway if the balloon went up. The other USAR group and two NG groups switched around some on area orientation and such but guys from the former USAR side of SF I've talked to made it sound like there was always a reserve SF unit slated to support NATO's northern flank.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Similar with at least some of the US reserve SF units. At least one battalion, maybe the whole group in 11th or 12th SFG (US Army Reserve) spent several decades training to do the same sort of role in Norway if the balloon went up. The other USAR group and two NG groups switched around some on area orientation and such but guys from the former USAR side of SF I've talked to made it sound like there was always a reserve SF unit slated to support NATO's northern flank.

That was 1/10th SFG. In addition, part of the SFDB's job was to exfiltrate West Berlin and do sabotage and hit-and-run raids in East Germany and East Berlin.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

If I recall correctly, the Cold War Territorial SAS units were tasked with a bunch of stay behind/infiltration missions in the Warsaw Pact rear -- calling air strikes and artillery on high value targets in the deep battle area, recovery of aviators and other isolated personnel (taking over the role of, if I recall correctly, MI 9 in WW2), and some tertiary derring do with raiding/sabotage of rail lines, bridges, etc. Not having to cover down on contingency missions and having a fairly specialized remit was (I'm guessing) hoped to overcome the difficulty of keeping reserve special operations effective.

Similar with at least some of the US reserve SF units. At least one battalion, maybe the whole group in 11th or 12th SFG (US Army Reserve) spent several decades training to do the same sort of role in Norway if the balloon went up. The other USAR group and two NG groups switched around some on area orientation and such but guys from the former USAR side of SF I've talked to made it sound like there was always a reserve SF unit slated to support NATO's northern flank.

Of course all of this goes out of the window in Twilight 2000 with the way the war starts...

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

Pretty much.

There is an endearing myth about the SAS that goes back to their WW2 days as raiders. The modern incarnation of the SAS are mostly recon and observation units. The Gulf war was a good example, the SAS was tasked with finding Iraqi scuds and calling down airstrikes, they where not tasked with going after them directly.

Compare that to the Russian Spetsnaz whose task is to go behind enemy lines and sabotage rear areas and eliminate HVTs.

Another role the SAS has found themselves in the past is as advisors and trainers, in asimilar fashion to the US green berets. In the twilight war I can envision SAS teams assistin anti-communist units behind soviet lines.

That's not to say the SAS can't or won't go after HVTs, especialy after the NATO air forces start to wind down operations due to losses and lack of parts. But it's not their primary role anymore.

I'm going by reports comming out of the first Gulf war. Yes they did mostly call in Airstrikes...But they also did some direct action missions. A Squadron of the 22nd SAS did perform a direct action at a high value target at Victor 2. the target was supost to be protected by a platoon of about 30 men. Durring the strike they found themselveds in a firefight with ten times that number. Other scudhunting groups prepared to go with direct actions in the case of Human shields. I'm not saying that it's their primary mission, most of my kin's actions in the past 50 years was gathering intelligence and leading a Firqua. That's one of the gratest strenghts of the SAS they adapt to the tactical and stratigic needs of Great Britan.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

That's one of the gratest strenghts of the SAS they adapt to the tactical and stratigic needs of Great Britan.

The SAS troopers at their main base not far from me, at Campbell Barracks in Swanbourne, don't usually seem to have much interest in "adapting to the tactical and strategic needs of Great Britain" .

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Targan

The SAS troopers at their main base not far from me, at Campbell Barracks in Swanbourne, don't usually seem to have much interest in "adapting to the tactical and strategic needs of Great Britain" .

Dunno, if we need a bit of support out there I'm sure our colonial kin will be willing to lend a hand.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

Dunno, if we need a bit of support out there I'm sure our colonial kin will be willing to lend a hand.

Even without officially playing some of them turn up in Poland helping against the Russians!

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Even without officially playing some of them turn up in Poland helping against the Russians!

Or are they really helping the Russians against NATO? They wouldn't be the first of the west's allies to switch sides...

[Brother in Arms]

A couple other firearms to consider could also be the British made version of the G3A3 and G3A4 which I have personally seen when I was in england all had enfield markings! Great write up.

Brother in Arms

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

A couple other firearms to consider could also be the British made version of the G3A3 and G3A4 which I have personally seen when I was in england all had enfield markings! Great write up.

Brother in Arms

When did you see them? HK was British owned in the 1990s.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

Good Article about the regular British Army. I know that the SAS and whatever the 14th Intelligence company is now designated uses some different weapons.

For the 14th they use the

Walther PPK
Browning High Power(probably replaced by the SIG P226)
MP5K
HK53 short assault rifle
G3KA4 short assault rifle

The SAS uses similar weapons, but given that they are tasked with Direct action some things are added lile the M16 with M203.

Then Again this is TW2K and some things didn't happen and other things got put into production.

Is it the PP or the PPK?

Also the Welrod silent bolt action pistol.

[Brother in Arms]

I saw them around 2007 or 2008 they were in a massive arms dump in England. There where about 25 of them or so and they all had green furniture much to my suprise when I inspected them they had enfield markings.